14.1 Run Question

[pool]

I guess I should stress that this hypothetical is entirely in practice. There are no match considerations.

Additionally, the tough break shot is nothing outlandish - it's just a tough shot. Maybe you got a much bigger angle on it than you would have hoped, but it's not like you're considering playing a double bank just to keep the run going. In other words, playing it won't hurt the integrity of the run. It's a perfectly legitimate shot.

- Steve

Sorry Steve. The original post said "super-tough" which is far too risky to me. Harkening back to Mr. Crane's comments to Sigel, I think the proper strategic play is to still shoot the duck and play safe. I believe Irving Crane had many 14-and-safe runs in his career as well. Wasn't he partly known for them? That being said, I would consider a super-tough shot to be an even lower percentage than 40-50%.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Sorry Steve. The original post said "super-tough" which is far too risky to me. Harkening back to Mr. Crane's comments to Sigel, I think the proper strategic play is to still shoot the duck and play safe. I believe Irving Crane had many 14-and-safe runs in his career as well. Wasn't he partly known for them? That being said, I would consider a super-tough shot to be an even lower percentage than 40-50%.

Pool, the quote you attributed to me has in its first sentence: "There are no match considerations at all." To whom are you playing safe? If you play safe on yourself while you practice, more power to you. It's a good way to practice, requiring much discipline.

It's just the Crane comment seemed to imply it's possible to win a game playing very conservatively (it is), and THAT implied you thought the run occurred during a match.

As to the toughness of the shot, since most shots in straight pool are of the 95%-98% variety, I think something in a 40-50 range would be considered super tough. But perhaps you're right; maybe the language I used to describe the difficulty of the shot was too strong. I didn't want to use "semi-tough" because I think most people (including me) would almost certainly go for a semi-tough shot in that situation.

- Steve

 

[pool]

I get what you are saying. I still think I take the duck since I would then have achieved a goal. FYI - I do, in fact, play safeties against myself in practice.

 

[bagofpaper]

Hi Shane. Good post. I am curious - would you feel the same if you were at 199, had a wide-open table, and your 200th ball skidded on you? Assume it was a total hanger, and you are positive it would have been pocketed if not for the skid.

If you never got that far again, would you consider yourself to have ever run two hundred balls?

What about if someone were to bump you just as you were shooting number 200, causing you to miss and disrupt the layout?

I guess the gist of what I am asking is, is there some form of closure we need (the act of actually pocketing that final ball) to make the victory true? If I were at my goal ball, and one of the above two things happened causing me to miss it, I would not be able to look at it as maturely as you are saying. I'm fairly certain I'd have to start playing in traffic.

- Steve

Steve, you are an existential straight pool player! Let's get you a beret and black turtle neck! Just kidding... I would shoot the hanger at 199. How many times will you get to 199 in your life?! Although, there's no such thing as a hanger at 199 is there?

 

[Steve C]

Shoot the hanger.
Take the flyer best percentage of one of the four corner balls out of the rack, make it, and continue my run with the goal in hand and climbing.

In the real world I try and make the best choice but at the same time
I do not pay my green fees to get out on the course and lay up.

Sounds like a defining moment from the movie Tin Cup.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Pushout]

Since it's practice, I'd probably shoot said duck with a goal in mind. On the other hand, if I've been playing well enough to get to whatever particular goal I'm trying to reach, I might go for the break shot. In any kind of competition, I'd go with Crane's philosophy. Of course, I don't spend hours a day playing myself safe, either

 

[Travis Bickle]

On principle, I would shoot the hanger and regroup to go for a higher number some other day.

But in reality, I'd probably go the break shot route, because I'm so delusional about my abilities that I'd see the 45% shot as a 75% and think it was the smart move!

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

I first ran a hundred balls back in 1978 when I'd just gotten contacts. My 100th ball was a frozen straight in combo in the corner. But to be honest, if it would have been a harder shot but one enabling me to run more balls, I would have shot the more difficult shot. I got lucky that it was a shot in the rack and was a break-out ball as well. I say always play the smart shot, no matter what.

 

[CueAndMe]

Although I almost exclusively play straight pool, this question made me realize that I have never been in a situation to even come close to my goal of 100 balls, and I don't think I've ever aspired to a lower number than that besides maybe a single rack when I first started. I wish I knew the exact number of my high run, but I never paid close enough attention while practicing to count accurately. I just realized that I had run "about" 4 racks. That's "about" 56 balls.

Anyway, I also realize that the goal of 100 isn't really so much of a goal as a level of play that I want to get to. I want "to be a player who runs 100 balls." Not once, but often. I want to be someone who looks at the table and knows there's no reason to miss if I play smart. Right now I feel there's no reason to miss, but I don't know it yet.

Jeff

 

[BigCat]

Great question.

Personally, I will always go for the harder shot in the situation you have described (in practice and only other option is run ending).

I would select this shot for a couple of reasons:

- I don't see that much of a difference between 99 and 100 or 199 and 200. Either are spectacular achievements and I would not be disappointed with either. In my mind, it's just a number and it's not the high run that matters as much as how I played it. Besides, what's to say that I would not hit that same number, or even higher, the very next day.

- I couldn't live with myself if I didn't go for the shot and give 110% to keeping the run alive. I'm a very competitive person and shooting a stop shot that would end a run (for the sake of saying a certain #) just does not compute for me. I will always do everything possible to keep the run going.

- Given 2 options, I would select the option with the higher percentage for success. In this scenario, one option is 0% and the other is 40/50%. I would always select the second shot. JMO.

Ray

 

[softshot]

High run is just a number... what's the score?? do I need more points than that to win? keep playing the games correctly and the numbers will come..is a guy who can run 50 THAT much better than a guy who can run 49?

 

[suckershot]

Steve, I've avoided weighing in (not sure a feeble 45 ball runner has much to add to these hypothetical considerations); but I will tell you that if there is ANY chance of continuing the run I will ALWAYS go for the shot (in practice).

As long as you are calling ball and pocket then there is no loss of "integrity". If you've ever seen Pat Fleming play 14.1 you know there is NO SUCH THING as avoiding a break shot because of too much angle.

I was helping a friend warm up for the IPT by playing some straight pool. When he got a little past straight on standard break shot; he just slammed the object ball off the stack and into the corner, whitey going off the object ball, to the side rail, and back into the stack at warp speed - no 2 balls touching on the resulting table. I thought it was pretty incredible, until he did it AGAIN 2 racks later. I don't know if this run had "integrity", but he called the shots and got to keep shooting.

Just last week I had run 44 balls, and after the break shot had an entirely open table 12 or 13 balls left. I could have run these balls fairly easily; but had a "trouble ball" just past the side pocket on the rail (no balls nearby to move it with easily). As I had a fairly decent shallow angle on the trouble ball, I shot it right then; missing it. It was the correct shot, but I missed a great chance to break 50.

I don't feel bad about it at all. I just remember the story Mike Sigel told about playing with Irving Crane, when Mike was a teenager. In such a situation, Irving evidently recommended ALWAYS shooting the correct professional shot, even if your shooting skills are not yet professional level - otherwise, how will you ever learn the proper way unless you try it at every opportunity.

Yikes...if you're hesitant as a feeble 45 ball runner, I guess I should take my pathetic 26 and go back to Yahoo pool!

LOL...story of making the break ball off the rack is funny, only because that's part of how I got to my stupid 26. I got way too much angle for the shot, but I was playing a friend and it was nearing 3:00 p.m., the time when free play for APA players on weekends ends, so I figured it was silly to duck being down 81-33 (81-33 before starting the run that produced that break shot, anyway).

I generally agree with shooting the "correct" shot, especially since we're talking about practice. Not a game, not a game...we're talkin' about practice. Practice. (A little Allen Iverson humor.) If it was a game where I was trying to win, and I felt that the shot was a little too difficult to shoot, I might try to bump it later, even if as you say there wasn't an easy way to get it out. But since most of my straight pool is played in practice, many runs far more pathetic than 26 come to an end because I shoot a more difficult shot than I necessarily feel comfortable shooting, just because I deem it to be the "correct" shot. I don't mind missing as long as I'm making the right decision.

 

[suckershot]

I like them big angle shots too and will almost never turn them down. They sure do spread the rack nicely! I hear Fleming was simply incredible with them.

Hmmm, in my book, I'd have to say that the run is effectively over as soon as he tries something like that.***Re: off the rack break shot*** It's a shot that would never be played in top-flight combination, and he only played it in an effort to continue the run. I'm all for playing a nice aggressive game, even banking the occasional ball when defense is just out of the question. But shooting the break ball off the stack...

- Steve

As bad as I am, I really don't mind the big angle break shots either. Granted, since I'm only practicing most of the time, I'm never worried about someone else planting me in my chair because I missed and spread the rack wide open. I'm blaming it on John Schmidt, since when I've seen him play, he doesn't seem to mind the big angles either. It's all your fault, John.

Aww man...you're going to invalidate my 26?!?!? OK, OK, I shot the off the rack break shot because I overran position. I'm not proud of the overran position. But I need all of the positive reinforcement I can get. Unfortunately, the very little knowledge I have still outweighs my talent by far. That probably explains the high run of 26.

BTW, Steve, I like the break shot you have as your avatar, only with the break ball a little closer to the center of the rack, shot with inside to go 3 rails. It doesn't always produce the best results, but it's fun to shoot.

 

[stevekur1]

This is a great Oldie But Goodie post.....

lets see what the players of today decide:

I would opt to go for the gusto and try the breakshot even though the percentage is not in High Favor. i would rather go down swinging, then to never know where the sky ends on the limit !!!

-Steve

 

[supergreenman]

Metaphorically, will you be able to live with yourself having ran, say, 199 and missing a risky shot?

(For the purposes of this question, assume there is a very reasonable chance you will never again hit this number, and that you know this during the run. Also assume this is in practice and your choice will not affect the outcome of a match.)

Thanks for specifying that it's practice not a real match. I would take the duck for the personal record.

I also don't believe in the very reasonable chance I'll ever be able to surpass that number:
a) if I did it once I can do it again
b) what's life with out goals if you achieve one, make another harder.
c) If I don't think I can do better I probably won't so screw the negative thinking. Like Jimmy Reids video is titled.... no time for negative.

 

[gunzby]

For some reason I've been thinking about this question a lot lately... have no idea why.

I voted in the poll that I would shoot the hanger. Hitting 200 has been too important a goal for me for so long. I am not sure why it has always eluded me, but it has, and it's more humbling than I care to share.

There are some specific reasons why I think I might shoot the hanger, not the least of which is I don't see too much difference between telling someone my high run is 232 and telling someone it's 200. But it feels there's a difference between 232 and 199. If I knew that making the break shot would guarantee me another 80, then yes, I'd like to believe I would definitely go for it.

I think if I brought the make percentage of the tough shot up to 70%, I go for it. 45% is a tough shot, especially considering you are obviously in your zone at that point and would likely have a higher than normal level of confidence.

All this said, I really can't say with certainty I know what I would do if the circumstance ever came up.

- Steve

I voted to shoot the hanger as well. My reasoning is that with the hanger there is a 99.9% chance of making it and an equal tough chance of making shape on the break ball again as there is in making that tough shot.

*edit* I know the question stipulates that there is no way you can make shape on the break ball, but in reality with a hanger there is certainly a chance to either go into the rack or make shape on the bb again. Hypothetically speaking I would still do the same for the magic number.

 

[Pushout]

Shoot the break shot, no question. Didn't even have to think about it.

Edit: Just saw my previous post. That was then, this is now. I've been working on my game lately and still feel I'd go for it.

 

[gerard soriano]

For those who play 14.1, I have a question. We each have that “number” in our heads, a number which we know we might be capable of running, but that for whatever reason has eluded us throughout our playing career. For some, it might be 50. Others 100, 200, or higher.

So here’s the question. You are running balls, and you get to a situation where you have n-1 balls. If your goal is 50, you are at 49. There are only two open balls. One is a duck, but you can’t break the rack from it. AND getting position on the other break ball after making the hanger will be, for the purposes of this question, impossible. You have a shot at the break ball, but it’s super-tough. You estimate that your make percentage on it would be between 40% and 50%.

So… what do each of you do? Do you take the hanger and lock in the goal? For the rest of your life, no one will ever be able to take this number from you. But… do you want to end your career never knowing what you might have achieved that glorious day? Or do you go for the break shot in an effort to continue the run? Metaphorically, will you be able to live with yourself having ran, say, 199 and missing a risky shot?

(For the purposes of this question, assume there is a very reasonable chance you will never again hit this number, and that you know this during the run. Also assume this is in practice and your choice will not affect the outcome of a match.)

Thanks! I look forward to the responses.

I absolutly go for the hard shot knowing if i make it i beat my # by alot more
For me personaly my high runs are really for me mot to inpress others
Last week I ran a 99 then missed I started laughing Thinking I cant tell my budies I ran 100
I would rather be the one with a 60 ball high run in a tournament and win then be the one who ran 100 twice and lost

 

[gerard soriano]

For those who play 14.1, I have a question. We each have that “number” in our heads, a number which we know we might be capable of running, but that for whatever reason has eluded us throughout our playing career. For some, it might be 50. Others 100, 200, or higher.

So here’s the question. You are running balls, and you get to a situation where you have n-1 balls. If your goal is 50, you are at 49. There are only two open balls. One is a duck, but you can’t break the rack from it. AND getting position on the other break ball after making the hanger will be, for the purposes of this question, impossible. You have a shot at the break ball, but it’s super-tough. You estimate that your make percentage on it would be between 40% and 50%.

So… what do each of you do? Do you take the hanger and lock in the goal? For the rest of your life, no one will ever be able to take this number from you. But… do you want to end your career never knowing what you might have achieved that glorious day? Or do you go for the break shot in an effort to continue the run? Metaphorically, will you be able to live with yourself having ran, say, 199 and missing a risky shot?

(For the purposes of this question, assume there is a very reasonable chance you will never again hit this number, and that you know this during the run. Also assume this is in practice and your choice will not affect the outcome of a match.)

Thanks! I look forward to the responses.

Another thought
Ask your self this? If your goal was to run 50 60 70 100
If you ran 49 59 69 99 would anything be different or would there just be more chatter in your head A obsticle is something you see when you take you eye of the goal you are trying to reach If you are a 20 ball runner and you run 39 dont worry about 40 It will come

 

[mullyman]

I say shoot the hanger. Why? Because a "hanger", at least by my definition, is a ball in the jaws of the pocket. If you're good enough to run 50 or a hundred balls then your cueball control should be good enough to get the cueball to the rack area to break more balls out.

But let's say that you can't........I think I'd shoot the hanger anyway. Why? Because I always play the percentage whether I'm practicing or competing. If the break out shot was something I didn't feel confident about I'd go for the hanger......and then play safe. As it should be.
MULLY