14.1 tip from J.Ervolino - please explain.

S

Slim J

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was watching a 14.1 video (not sure which one) but I'll try to find out.

Among many good comments Ervolino said that, if you have a side of the rack break ball then clearing the balls that lie below the level of your break ball early and leaving those balls above the break ball towards the end of the rack will make running a rack easier. There was no further explanation. I got the impression that by 'lower' he meant anywhere across either side of the table and not just directly below the BB.

I never heard this before but knowing J.E. was a master of the game makes me want to understand it.

When I see good players run balls many, many times the key ball is lower than the break ball and the last few before the key are also lower. I've heard about getting balls off the rails early and opening clusters and clearing pockets early but never this.

Can you 14.1 lovers and experts help me understand this better?
 
Slim J said:
I was watching a 14.1 video (not sure which one) but I'll try to find out.

Among many good comments Ervolino said that, if you have a side of the rack break ball then clearing the balls that lie below the level of your break ball early and leaving those balls above the break ball towards the end of the rack will make running a rack easier. There was no further explanation. I got the impression that by 'lower' he meant anywhere across either side of the table and not just directly below the BB.

I never heard this before but knowing J.E. was a master of the game makes me want to understand it.

When I see good players run balls many, many times the key ball is lower than the break ball and the last few before the key are also lower. I've heard about getting balls off the rails early and opening clusters and clearing pockets early but never this.

Can you 14.1 lovers and experts help me understand this better?
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Straight pool leaves you several choices for patterns. One can certainly play the table using a break shot situated at the side of the pack by coming up from below the pack for position.

But it's much cleaner playing a stop shot on the key ball in the side or corner for that same break shot.

No mistake either way. I always preferred the stop shot in the side or corner, and already being above the rack.

Jim
 
my instant reaction is that it's probably because when you take the higher balls at the end, the cue ball is staying above the break ball, which of course makes things easier. but i imagine there's more to his theory than just that though...
 
I agree with Ervolino's statement. IMHO, it has to do with minimizing cue ball movement. If the key ball is below the break ball, then generally more cue ball movement will be required to get position on the break ball than if the key ball is at or above rack level. The key is that as opposed to having to get to mid table, it's better to already be there. Consider the difference between going one or two rails to get shape as opposed to a stop shot in the side or bouncing a foot or two off the side rail.

P.S.--Ervolino's suggestion also reduces the possibility of running into the break ball during the latter stages of the rack.
 
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Slim J said:
I was watching a 14.1 video (not sure which one) but I'll try to find out.

Among many good comments Ervolino said that, if you have a side of the rack break ball then clearing the balls that lie below the level of your break ball early and leaving those balls above the break ball towards the end of the rack will make running a rack easier. There was no further explanation. I got the impression that by 'lower' he meant anywhere across either side of the table and not just directly below the BB.

I never heard this before but knowing J.E. was a master of the game makes me want to understand it.

When I see good players run balls many, many times the key ball is lower than the break ball and the last few before the key are also lower. I've heard about getting balls off the rails early and opening clusters and clearing pockets early but never this.

Can you 14.1 lovers and experts help me understand this better?
Click to expand...


Well, ideally (IMHO) I like to have a ball on the side-rail that I can pocket in the same corner that I'm going to pocket my break-ball. I find these shots to be the easiest to get relatively straight on from anywhere on the table.

The greatest fear a shooter has when addressing balls below the rack is getting straight and when you're working in such a small area, it's not unusual for this to happen. If the below-rack area is your end-pattern, small angles are ok but if you're positioning for a standard side-rack break-shot, you'll need to plan for an exit in tight confines.

I can't say this is what Ervolino was talking about. I think this is a question best addressed by Steve Lipsky who probably would know far better than I would.
 
I would interpret JE's reference to balls below the selected break ball as those in the immediate space below. I have often noted that leaving these balls for late rack clearance can often cause them to be "out of position" in the sense that you get to where you must disturb the break ball in order to pocket these close proximity stragglers.
Ball above the break ball are usually prime candidates for key balls enabling a good closing pattern.
 
Thanks for these answers. Every one was new info for me. Great insite from many different techniques and approaches.
 
Also, when you have a break ball and key ball in position early in the rack, they become obstacles. You don't want to shoot them, and you don't want to bump into them, until the end of the rack. If you clear out the low-lying balls early, that leaves you uptable for the middle and the end of the rack, freeing you of having to manouver around these obstacles when it comes to the critical position routes that set up your end-rack sequence. Just from watching good players play straight pool, it seems like the easiest way for a good player to get in trouble is when he can't avoiding running into balls he doesn't want to run into. Getting your downtable work done with and then staying uptable seems like the smartest way to take that risk out of the equation.

-Andrew
 
Slim J said:
Thanks for these answers. Every one was new info for me. Great insite from many different techniques and approaches.
Click to expand...

No problem, bro. That's why we're all here. To share what we have.
 
Slim J said:
I was watching a 14.1 video (not sure which one) but I'll try to find out.

Among many good comments Ervolino said that, if you have a side of the rack break ball then clearing the balls that lie below the level of your break ball early and leaving those balls above the break ball towards the end of the rack will make running a rack easier. There was no further explanation. I got the impression that by 'lower' he meant anywhere across either side of the table and not just directly below the BB.

I never heard this before but knowing J.E. was a master of the game makes me want to understand it.

When I see good players run balls many, many times the key ball is lower than the break ball and the last few before the key are also lower. I've heard about getting balls off the rails early and opening clusters and clearing pockets early but never this.

Can you 14.1 lovers and experts help me understand this better?
Click to expand...

Hmmm....LOL...let me see who in here I can piss off...Lmao. The reason you'd get rid.."pocket" or try to get rid of the balls between the rack and the end rail is to avoid creating more clusters of balls in that area as you need to continue to spread the rack out. From that area you're only looking at the 2 corner pockets to pocket the balls in to get continued position to keep pocketing balls. That's a small area between the rack and the rail. Once the area has been cleared out you can then move out to the more open area of the head of the rack opening up your options now of pocketing balls in 4 pockets now. Being above your break ball is nice to get that position, but not being able to get there because you lost your run behind the rack because of a traffic jam so to speak will stop you first!

Glen
 
I played a lot of straight pool with Johnny and he frequently implored to me, "It's an easier game if you leave your last balls above the break shot."

The first time I heard him say that it surprised me. I'd played a lot of straight pool before I met Johnny and what he said seemed to contradict what I'd always believed about cleaning up the head of the table as soon as reasonably possible.

When I asked him about it, he explained that when you leave balls below the break shot, you often need to maneuver the cueball around your break shot, and many times the break ball blocks the path you'd like to roll your cueball on. How many times have you seen a good run broken because the cueball just clipped the break shot on the path to perfect position?

So what Johnny meant was, whenever possible keep the last few balls above the break ball so that you don't have to deal with unnecessary interference. It's funny, even today, almost 20 years after I first played with Johnny, I still hear in my head his raspy-voiced directions.

I should point out, it isn't always possible, or at least practical, to keep the last balls above the break shot. But when you can, you'll find it easier to get on your break shot.
 
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jimmyg said:
But it's much cleaner playing a stop shot on the key ball in the side or corner for that same break shot.

No mistake either way. I always preferred the stop shot in the side or corner, and already being above the rack.

Jim
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Not to be argumentative or abrasive, but I don't like the stop shot on the key ball because it requires perfect shape. If you're not quite straight in on the key ball and you really needed to shoot a stop shot, you can be in big trouble (especially if it's a shot into the side pocket ...that one is really seductive, but problematic).
 
Rarelymisses said:
Not to be argumentative or abrasive, but I don't like the stop shot on the key ball because it requires perfect shape. If you're not quite straight in on the key ball and you really needed to shoot a stop shot, you can be in big trouble (especially if it's a shot into the side pocket ...that one is really seductive, but problematic).
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It depends on what kind of pattern you're playing in a particular situation. If you are able to get into a stop-stop pattern, the side pocket stop shot is by far the preferable play. If the pattern requires a significant amount of cue ball travel to get on the key ball, however, other options may be more feasible.
 
tedkaufman said:
I played a lot of straight pool with Johnny and he frequently implored to me, "It's an easier game if you leave your last balls above the break shot."

The first time I heard him say that it surprised me. I'd played a lot of straight pool before I met Johnny and what he said seemed to contradict what I'd always believed about cleaning up the head of the table as soon as reasonably possible.

When I asked him about it, he explained that when you leave balls below the break shot, you often need to maneuver the cueball around your break shot, and many times the break ball blocks the path you'd like to roll your cueball on. How many times have you seen a good run broken because the cueball just clipped the break shot on the path to perfect position?

So what Johnny meant was, whenever possible keep the last few balls above the break ball so that you don't have to deal with unnecessary interference. It's funny, even today, almost 20 years after I first played with Johnny, I still hear in my head his raspy-voiced directions.

I should point out, it isn't always possible, or at least practical, to keep the last balls above the break shot. But when you can, you'll find it easier to get on your break shot.
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i'm no great player by any means but i've never clipped the break ball coming off the rail. that's more a result of a bad lay on the setup ball to begin with. i happen to agree though because i like my setup ball in the side pocket.

however i must say that a setup ball laying off the bottom rail gives a player the most options to get to the breakshot and has the most leeway for error. if you get bad on the side pocket setup ball, you end up sometimes having to do funny things to the cb get get in line for the break shot.
 
VQuote: Originally Posted by jimmyg But it's much cleaner playing a stop shot on the key ball in the side or corner for that same break shot. No mistake either way. I always preferred the stop shot in the side or corner said:
It depends on what kind of pattern you're playing in a particular situation. If you are able to get into a stop-stop pattern, the side pocket stop shot is by far the preferable play. If the pattern requires a significant amount of cue ball travel to get on the key ball, however, other options may be more feasible.
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No offense taken. The perfect stop shot position is ideal, but if you have to roll up a little, or pull back a drop, it's still better to be above the pack and your break ball than to be behind the pack most of the time, IMO.

Jim
 
Now, here's one. Although the principles of straights instruct us to take off balls on or close to the rails early in the rack, I find that a ball in the vicinity of the side rail is one of the most convenient key balls, particularly if I'm in a situation where I don't have a stop out. As such, I often decide to leave a ball in that vicinity as an insurance key ball. What do you guys think?
 
VIProfessor said:
Now, here's one. Although the principles of straights instruct us to take off balls on or close to the rails early in the rack, I find that a ball in the vicinity of the side rail is one of the most convenient key balls, particularly if I'm in a situation where I don't have a stop out. As such, I often decide to leave a ball in that vicinity as an insurance key ball. What do you guys think?
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As the rack evolves, sometimes you see better alternatives as "stuff" happens, maybe you bumped a ball that you didn't want to move, or got a little out of line, so you always have to maintain some flexibility with your play.

I would often use a ball near the rail as my key ball if my break ball was on the same side of the table next to the pack. There are so many variations that come into play, which is what makes the game so interesting and difficult.

Some of the most fun runs are when scre* up and have to become creative.

Jim
 
tedkaufman said:
I played a lot of straight pool with Johnny and he frequently implored to me, "It's an easier game if you leave your last balls above the break shot."

The first time I heard him say that it surprised me. I'd played a lot of straight pool before I met Johnny and what he said seemed to contradict what I'd always believed about cleaning up the head of the table as soon as reasonably possible.

When I asked him about it, he explained that when you leave balls below the break shot, you often need to maneuver the cueball around your break shot, and many times the break ball blocks the path you'd like to roll your cueball on. How many times have you seen a good run broken because the cueball just clipped the break shot on the path to perfect position?

So what Johnny meant was, whenever possible keep the last few balls above the break ball so that you don't have to deal with unnecessary interference. It's funny, even today, almost 20 years after I first played with Johnny, I still hear in my head his raspy-voiced directions.

I should point out, it isn't always possible, or at least practical, to keep the last balls above the break shot. But when you can, you'll find it easier to get on your break shot.
Click to expand...
Talk about asking a question and getting the answer right from the horses mouth. Thanks for sharing that.

Again, thanks to all for the variety of responses. it underlines why 14.1 is such a great game.
 
Common sense from a great player...

I met Johnny Ervolino late in his career and became instant friends. In a few meetings it was like I'd known him all my life. In that sense Johnny is almost a prototype of the person who always should have been and always should be in every poolroom.

And I can still hear Johnny Marco saying 'Like my mother always told me...get rid of your block shots'...

This quote from Johnny E. has that lesson as a part of what he is saying.

Johnny Ervolino had excellent advice to keep your last balls above the rack...to make it easier to set up the classic break ball...and I think he was also saying to go behind the rack early...get rid of balls that are and could become block shots...and to open up the table.

You have a 9-ft table with all the balls in one third of it. It makes sense to go underneath the pack and knock off a few ducks and while you're at it push some of the other balls up toward the center of the table...put more green between the balls...more room to maneuver...and by the time you get your cue ball to center table...you have no more block shots and room to maneuver.
 
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