14.1 Wei Table Layout

Dan White

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AEVR3BPpj3EPAM4FLni4HGIX3JGRR3KLoX4Maqj3NawR1PJGk@

OK, so what are you going to try and do from this shot? Let me put one restriction on your choice: You MUST shoot the 13 ball first. Are you going to play a little zone shape off the 13, try to do something specific, or just be sure to make the shot and see where you end up with the cue ball?

There's a reason I posted this particular setup, which I'll post after a day or so.

Thanks,

dwhite
 
Well, probably not the best route, I might try something like this (9 pgs), though the cue ball moves a lot. Not to hijack the OP's thread, but if any of you gurus could point out what is both good and bad about my layout, I'd appreciate it.

I like Mosconiac's layout to move the 8 as well.

Craig

CueTable Help

 
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Dan White said:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AEVR3BPpj3EPAM4FLni4HGIX3JGRR3KLoX4Maqj3NawR1PJGk@

OK, so what are you going to try and do from this shot? Let me put one restriction on your choice: You MUST shoot the 13 ball first. Are you going to play a little zone shape off the 13, try to do something specific, or just be sure to make the shot and see where you end up with the cue ball?

There's a reason I posted this particular setup, which I'll post after a day or so.

Thanks,

dwhite
Click to expand...

I guess if I'm shooting the 13 first I then draw back for the 14 so the two problem balls are gone and I can then go merrily on my way. Straight in, or with a little angle, I'm then good to go for just about anything else I want to do.

Lou Figueroa
tell him what
he's won :-)
 
Irish634 said:
Not to hijack the OP's thread, but if any of you gurus could point out what is both good and bad about my layout, I'd appreciate it.
Click to expand...

I think that Mosconiacs layout is much better for a few reasons:
  • The amount of cue ball movement is very minimal which results in less chance for making an error in your position play.
  • If you really think you can make the 14 in the opposite corner past the side at 85% or above then you must be a pro. I personally hate to shoot that type of shot if I do not have to.
  • It is pretty routine to knock the 8 into a break ball position the way that Mosconiac did because that is the preferred break area. I personally don't like to shoot the behind the stack break that you left because they tend to not spread the balls very well and creates a more clustered layout. Being the lazy bastard that I am, I prefer to not have to put too much effort into any given rack.

I hope my take on this helps.
 
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OK, thanks for the replies. So here's the reason I posted this message. Lou posted up this link:

http://www.surreypool.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=180

This is the Caras/Mosconi match in 1963. For anybody wanting to see Mosconi play a real match, this is the closest thing you probably will ever see. Unfortunately, he barely gets to shoot! Anyway, Caras is no slouch either, and makes some nice runs.

Something caught my eye at about 8:10 to 8:15 minutes into the video. Caras has the layout I showed in the Wei table:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AEVR3BPpj3EPAM4FLni4HGIX3JGRR3KLoX4Maqj3NawR1PJGk@

I think you'll be surprised at what Caras does with this shot. He caroms into the 8, seemingly without much thought, but it is hard to know. I can't believe he just cinched the 13. I've been told by a great player never to use outside english on rail shots with tight tables, so maybe this is what happened here? In any case, I think later in the run you can see Caras trying to bump the 8 up into a break ball because he uses a little body english on that shot. He isn't quite successful and ends up with the 1 as a break ball.

Note that the 2 ball is barely visible on this video. I only saw it when Caras was getting down to shoot the 2. Otherwise you can't really see it as it merges with the 5.

So maybe he just makes a mistake? One thing is for sure, though, he isn't trying to draw across table. If he had hit the 8 head on, he might not have gotten another shot, so my guess is that he intentionally caromed off the 8 so the cue ball would head to the foot rail.

Just wondering, and thanks for playing!
dwhite
 
Hey Dan. A couple of comments. First, I was happy to see that Mr. Caras chose to keep the behind-the-rack break shot. Both the 1 and the 10 were laying so good there was no reason in my opinion to do anything to create something else.

The other comment is, who knew the refs were such sharks! They scream out the ball/pocket and run to the table to POINT at it! It's amazing these guys can run 4 like that!

Thanks for the link, Dan... very entertaining!

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Hey Dan. A couple of comments. First, I was happy to see that Mr. Caras chose to keep the behind-the-rack break shot. Both the 1 and the 10 were laying so good there was no reason in my opinion to do anything to create something else.
- Steve
Click to expand...

Hi Steve. So what do you think about the first shot that caromed into the 8? Mistake, intentional, impossible to know? One thing for sure is that he didn't try to draw the cue ball across or up table.

Dan
 
This is probably not a match that either one of them was very proud of. It was very interesting to see players from this era sort of in their prime, though. There is a dramatically different style to their game than anything I've ever seen before.

A key example is the sequence beginning at 19:30. Caras, on 2 fouls, takes a shot that can only be described as silly. I've looked at this thing like 10 times and I can't even determine if the shot is possible - he misses it by so much that I have to think he'd have been better off taking a 3rd foul (or at least trying to shoot that ball up the rail).

But the sequence isn't done yet... Mosconi gets to the table, shoots one ball and immediately puts himself in a horrible, horrible spot. He doesn't seem to care though, as he simply two-strokes a difficult combination and keeps going. I've never seen this level of apathy at a national tournament of any sport. Maybe it's not apathy - maybe it's just tilt. It's hard to tell.

OK, as to the shot you asked about... Dan, I can't imagine Mr. Caras did that on purpose. I think both players were "off" on this particular day and not much of their pattern play here should be studied. Look at what he does later in your diagrammed sequence (at 8:44), going two rails with the cueball and inadvertently moving the 8. This is one of the most dangerous ways to accidentally move a ball, often resulting in being totally safe. It's just something you don't expect to see in world-caliber players.

Anyway, again, it was interesting to see the pace of this world championship... I had never seen anything quite like it. Thanks Dan.

- Steve
 
From watching the video it appears that the initial diagram is a bit off making Mosconiacs path invalid. The 10 and 11 are only a half ball apart in the video making it impossible for the cue ball to get in there to make the 11. Since the 8 and 6 are so close with the 6 blocking the lane, I would try for shape on the one to move the 10 into break position. Going for the 6 would result in going into the 1 off of that (I don't think you could get the angle that Irish went for in his diagram on the 6 either based on what I saw of the video) and going for the 14 does nothing to develop the rack. Jimmy still does develop the 10, but I think that was a big chance to go into the 8 and expect to come down for position on the 2, although since the 5 was not behind the 2, it was a lot easier than it looked in the diagram to use it to move the 10.

I think that this demonstrates how the slightest change in the position of the balls such as the difference between the actual position of the 10 and 11 and what was diagrammed can change your approach to the balls dramatically.

BTW - That ref is itchin' for a fight. The only thing I can think of in his defense is that he was told to do that to prevent confusion on the audiences part, after all we have problems telling the difference between the 2 and 4 on color TV; here all the balls are a shade of grey.
 
I like coming cross table to gain an angle on either the one or the ten. Either ball might create a carom angle favorable to improving the eight ball to a good break position. If executed in this fashion, it seems the two or five or even the six would be the next shot depending on position after bumping the eight.
I might also look for the opportunity of bumping the 14 into easier pocketing position, if it presents and if it makes sense, as the sequence is finishing up.
 
From time to time you get asked the rhetorical question, if you found a genie's bottle and got three wishes, what would they be.

I was never able to definitively name what I'd choose, but ... after watching that match, I can confirm what one of my wishes would be.

It would be to go back in time, to that arena and have the ability to stuff the butt end of a cue stick in that ref's mouth and ducktape his hands around his waist. :)
 
i would eliminate the 14 asap. so prob play 13-5-14-1

i dont shoot many balls up table but in this case if the 14 is off the rail i dont have a problem i have an insurance ball (1) for the next shot. i dont have to go crazy
 
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