1st threaded ferrule

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Have done about a dozen tip repairs so far, and all have turned out excellent, except for a white diamond break tip, I installed on an old Brunswick stick we had laying around that we started using as a break stick. Popped off after about three weeks of breaking with it. What actually happened was the slip over ferrule came loose to where it moved about a 64 th of a inch, and allowed the tip to pop loose. I actually think it was loose before installing the tip, and I didn't catch it. After some internet browsing, I decided to get a ferrule threader/compression die, and some threaded ferrules. Was a little nervous about stripping the wood, and the tips out there not to turn the shaft by the chuck, but by the shaft, we're spot on. Also saw Mark's youtube on where he showed turning the lathe on and letting go of the threader as it hits the shoulder, but was too scared to try that the first time. Maybe after I get this out of the lathe I'll turn a piece of dowl down to try it on. The threads actually came out quite clean I thought, and the ferrule turns on nice and tight without glue. Just have to wait for the wife to get home from town later today, with some epoxy, as what I have was old. I guess some of you would just suggest it would have been more cost justifiable to take my shafts somewhere to have tips and ferrules replaced, and you would be right, but there is no one within 75 miles of me that offers service with a lathe, and quite honestly this has been fun to do.
 

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Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
Looks good. It is always very satisfying to accomplish something like this for the first time. Sounds like you analyzed the tip popping off very accurately. Good luck, and welcome to the sickness...lol, it only gets worst, and more expensive but it's a lot of fun along the way
 

Chili Palmer

323
Gold Member
Silver Member
Is it also possible the super glue you used on the tip was old and contributed to it coming off? I had one pop off a while back and I determined that my super glue was old. Since then I started dating my superglue when opened.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
Is it also possible the super glue you used on the tip was old and contributed to it coming off? I had one pop off a while back and I determined that my super glue was old. Since then I started dating my superglue when opened.
Old super glue or any glue for that matter can be an issue and it's good practice to date them. But with a tube, slip-on type non-threaded ferrule that bar cues use and some cheaper lines of cues, it is very common for them to loosen and with a tenon going thru the middle, any movement and the glue bond will break no matter how fresh the glue is. It is worth the extra 30 seconds to always pull/twist on a ferrule before installing a tip. You will save yourself a lot of aggravation.
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you for the comments, I did consider that the glue might be old, and bought a new bottle, but honestly it was only about a year since I bought it, so I really doubt that was it. What makes me think the ferrule was loose from the get go was I was able to find the tip after it broke off, and when looking at the back of the tip there was a ring of glue that matched the ferrule, even though when I cut the old tip off, it was nice and square. Only thing I can think of was when I cut the old tip off the existing ferrule was loose already, and sticking out apx a 64th of an inch or so, and when installing the tip, it pushed back flush to the shoulder and leaving a slight gap on the outer ring, that failed after apx 50 break shots. These threaded ferrules seem like a much nicer way to go. Would really like to do live threading on a lathe, as in Mark's videos, but this way will have to do for now, have to draw the line somewhere.
 
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Chili Palmer

323
Gold Member
Silver Member
If the glue was open for a year it was most definitely bad. Here's a link on the shelf life of CA glue.

The ferrule was clearly loose in your situation, I just wanted to add the glue part in as an FYI ;)

My guess is the ferrule was pushed out a bit when you put the tip on and then when you, or whomever, broke the side of the tip was hit which pushed the ferrule back at a high rate of speed which popped the tip off. If you hit center of tip every-time I would venture to say it may have stayed on for a long time, unless the glue was bad.

 

j2pac

Marital Slow Learner.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Have done about a dozen tip repairs so far, and all have turned out excellent, except for a white diamond break tip, I installed on an old Brunswick stick we had laying around that we started using as a break stick. Popped off after about three weeks of breaking with it. What actually happened was the slip over ferrule came loose to where it moved about a 64 th of a inch, and allowed the tip to pop loose. I actually think it was loose before installing the tip, and I didn't catch it. After some internet browsing, I decided to get a ferrule threader/compression die, and some threaded ferrules. Was a little nervous about stripping the wood, and the tips out there not to turn the shaft by the chuck, but by the shaft, we're spot on. Also saw Mark's youtube on where he showed turning the lathe on and letting go of the threader as it hits the shoulder, but was too scared to try that the first time. Maybe after I get this out of the lathe I'll turn a piece of dowl down to try it on. The threads actually came out quite clean I thought, and the ferrule turns on nice and tight without glue. Just have to wait for the wife to get home from town later today, with some epoxy, as what I have was old. I guess some of you would just suggest it would have been more cost justifiable to take my shafts somewhere to have tips and ferrules replaced, and you would be right, but there is no one within 75 miles of me that offers service with a lathe, and quite honestly this has been fun to do.
Very nice. (y)
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
Very nice. (y)
ok... white diamond popped off.......... hahahaha..... 75% will............. I had the same problem........... here is the fix............ do your normal tip install on the tip............ spin it up in the lathe and the take a very small center drill and put a little dent in the center of the tip............ drill into the tip about 1 inch deep with a 1/8 inch drill............. epoxy in a 1/8 phenolic or G10 rod.......... ( you can buy it if you look).......... cut it off and shape and sand the tip......................... in 5 years I have only one come loose and it did not come off......... and I have done dozens this way

Kim
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting, never herd of something like that. Haven't installed a new tip yet as I'm waiting for the epoxy to cure on the ferrule install. Quite an interesting idea.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
Interesting, never herd of something like that. Haven't installed a new tip yet as I'm waiting for the epoxy to cure on the ferrule install. Quite an interesting idea.
Kim's method is NOT a good way to do it....proper prep and knowledge of what materials you are gluing - to what - with what, is the key. There are many ferrule materials and tip types....boring a hole into a ferrule and machining a post on the tip is just a work-around for not doing things properly, IMO. It also makes it bad for the next guy as there is now a hole in the ferrule. I have had to repair ones that have done this method and some have drilled and split the tenon, had another that the ferrule split right along the hole drilled into it, of a very expensive custom breaker, and the tip could be turned like a knob.....SMH. My opinion...do it right or don't do it at all. If manufacturer's can do it without extraordinary means...so can we.
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Didn't buy a tailstock assembly yet anyway, so am just going to put a new tip on tomorrow the standard way, as I would have no way to drill it. Do have a massive wood lathe, but no through bore other than a small hole for vacuum chucking. Should hold fine, I'm actually surprised the last one stayed on as long as it did, knowing what I know now.
 

PariahZero

Member
Good luck, and welcome to the sickness...lol, it only gets worst, and more expensive but it's a lot of fun along the way

I wish I could curse you, but I’m afraid I can confirm this. I just ordered a tailstock, more cutting tools, and some POM rod so I can make a tip centering tool, as well as other, completely non-pool related items.

I have other, darker thoughts as well. I’m afraid I’ll eventually have an opinion about the workability and scent of various hardwoods, instead of just their appearance.
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
Kim's method is NOT a good way to do it....proper prep and knowledge of what materials you are gluing - to what - with what, is the key. There are many ferrule materials and tip types....boring a hole into a ferrule and machining a post on the tip is just a work-around for not doing things properly, IMO. It also makes it bad for the next guy as there is now a hole in the ferrule. I have had to repair ones that have done this method and some have drilled and split the tenon, had another that the ferrule split right along the hole drilled into it, of a very expensive custom breaker, and the tip could be turned like a knob.....SMH. My opinion...do it right or don't do it at all. If manufacturer's can do it without extraordinary means...so can we.
hahahahahaha............. I did not realize you were the all knowing ........ expert on everything.................. I am not worthy............... why don't you try something different besides what is in you little pin head..............................

hahahahahaahahahahaha....................... Kim
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
WOW...Name calling? Really?
I have NEVER claimed to be all knowing or an expert...I was lucky enough that some very well respected and knowledgeable guys on here took the time to explain to me how to do things correctly when certain situations arise. Attached is a photo from the tip change I mentioned above where the repair guy that drilled into the tenon and split it and the tip spun like a knob after 2 days. I talked to the guy next time we met, and explained what happened, and he explained that he had some issues with hard break tips coming off, and he had read HERE how to do it this way thru a google search. All he remembered was that the poster's logo was a Bull with a red circle....... guess I should say thanks for the job...but I believe that We as repair guys and builders posting here have to be aware that each time we give advice here...someone will try it, so we have to be cautious about giving BS advice. Your advice cost a customer about $100 to fix it right after he paid a guy to do that to his shaft...which BTW, I see the customer often and the white diamond I put on 4 yrs ago is still going strong.
IMO, if you have to
do this to a tip and ferrule to get them to stay together.....you should find another job...like driving a taxicab
 

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Chili Palmer

323
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm not getting into that argument but this is what I'll say. Whenever I get into a new hobby the first thing I do is research the "pros" to see how they do things and that's the path I generally take. In all my research I have never seen anyone do anything but glue a flat tip to a flat surface using fresh glue. It's not rocket science.
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, the ferrule and tip is on. I really liked how it installed with the threaded ferrule, was actually quite simple having a lathe. Broke out a new bottle of glue also just to be safe. Did notice the new bottle, even though the exact same kind, was much more tacky and the tip stuck almost immodestly, where the old bottle took awhile for it to grab. I use alot of superglue in my woodturning, a different brand than for cue tips, and to be honest, at times it is two to three years old. This was really interesting to notice the difference from a freshly opened bottle, to one that was slightly less than a year old. Will have to watch that in the future. I really hate working with epoxy, love the results, but hate working with it. Any way tips on and hasn't come off yet, and don't expect any problems as I think the combination of old glue, and a loose ferrule. While I am new at this, I do have extensive woodworking, and woodturning experience, and when I ask for help, actually have a good understanding of the suggestions I have been given. I am really grateful for your time and help. I look at the suggestions you give, then use that to come up what I feel will work for me. This is addicting, and with my love of woodworking, and renewed interest in pool, I do think about producing some cues, and have actually talked to my wife about that. I already have a 26'x40' fully outfitted wood shop, and probably misguidedly estimate an additional equipment cost of 20-25 thousand. It's a fun thought, but I have so many hobbies already, and really only have the winter free to work on it, so probably will have to just envy the rest of you who produce some of those incredible cues. Thank's again everyone.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
Well, the ferrule and tip is on. I really liked how it installed with the threaded ferrule, was actually quite simple having a lathe. Broke out a new bottle of glue also just to be safe. Did notice the new bottle, even though the exact same kind, was much more tacky and the tip stuck almost immodestly, where the old bottle took awhile for it to grab. I use alot of superglue in my woodturning, a different brand than for cue tips, and to be honest, at times it is two to three years old. This was really interesting to notice the difference from a freshly opened bottle, to one that was slightly less than a year old. Will have to watch that in the future. I really hate working with epoxy, love the results, but hate working with it. Any way tips on and hasn't come off yet, and don't expect any problems as I think the combination of old glue, and a loose ferrule. While I am new at this, I do have extensive woodworking, and woodturning experience, and when I ask for help, actually have a good understanding of the suggestions I have been given. I am really grateful for your time and help. I look at the suggestions you give, then use that to come up what I feel will work for me. This is addicting, and with my love of woodworking, and renewed interest in pool, I do think about producing some cues, and have actually talked to my wife about that. I already have a 26'x40' fully outfitted wood shop, and probably misguidedly estimate an additional equipment cost of 20-25 thousand. It's a fun thought, but I have so many hobbies already, and really only have the winter free to work on it, so probably will have to just envy the rest of you who produce some of those incredible cues. Thank's again everyone.
Glad to hear you have a success. When putting on a new tip, it will only stay 1) as long as the base it is glued to is solid 2) use proper glue for the materials and most importantly 3) totally flat surface to be glued to a perfectly flat surface. Always dry place it, and if it rocks even slightly, the facing on on or the other is off...correct that and all will go well. What I do when opening a new bottle is to mark the date on it. If you buy 1 or 3 in advance, keep them in the refrigerator as that extends the shelf life.
 

Chili Palmer

323
Gold Member
Silver Member
Glad to hear you have a success. When putting on a new tip, it will only stay 1) as long as the base it is glued to is solid 2) use proper glue for the materials and most importantly 3) totally flat surface to be glued to a perfectly flat surface. Always dry place it, and if it rocks even slightly, the facing on on or the other is off...correct that and all will go well. What I do when opening a new bottle is to mark the date on it. If you buy 1 or 3 in advance, keep them in the refrigerator as that extends the shelf life.

I would like to add that when doing them on a lathe you need to make sure the shaft is centered. I turn it by hand with a bit next to it to see if it's centered and if not will add bits of paper between shaft and chuck so it's centered. Otherwise, the tip won't be perfectly centered on the shaft and you'll be able to see it.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
One other tip I forgot to mention....if the cutting tool height is off slightly, you will have a small 'nipple' in the center, so small you may not see it but it will cause the tip to rock slightly. If it happens, just rub the edge of a blade across the center of ferrule and should remove it, then re-adjust your tool height.
 

PariahZero

Member
I would like to add that when doing them on a lathe you need to make sure the shaft is centered. I turn it by hand with a bit next to it to see if it's centered and if not will add bits of paper between shaft and chuck so it's centered. Otherwise, the tip won't be perfectly centered on the shaft and you'll be able to see it.

It’s glaringly obvious now that somebody’s pointed it out.

Thank you for pointing out the simple, cheap, and effective solution which never even occurred to me.
 
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