2 Germans rules the straight pool world - why?

litho

litho

New member
Hello,
did you recognized, that two germans stand in the final of the straight pool World championships? Yes you did! But do you know why especially the germans are so good?

In July 2000 Mike Shamos wrote an article in BD.
In his article 'Broken Rack' he comes to the following resume: "One major difference between our biliard scene and that of Asia and Europe has to do with the way learning is passed along. Most Americans learn by spending a frightening amount of time in pool halls. [...] In Europe and Asia there is a much grater degree of one-on-one instruction, probably because the players are not trying to earn a living hustling each other and therefore have nothing to lose from sharing their secrets."

These secrets were written down in 2000 only in German language in the book "Modernes Pool" by Ralph Eckert. Since the end of last year this book "Modern Pool" is available in english.

More Information you may find here: http://www.billiardbook.com

This said Thorsten Hohmann:
"Even before I became a professional, Ralph taught me many things that has had a tremendous impact on my career. When I became a professional his teachings became even more insightful. I can't help but pass on his knowledge to my students and share with my friends on the Pro Tour. In professional tournaments against the worlds best players, I still use the principles Ralph taught me."

Kind regards.
litho.
 
there's nothing new to this. it is so in asia as well, as you mentioned.

here in america, it's everyone for himself, and "if you want to learn you'll have to gamble with me because that's the ONLY way to learn". guyz like ray martin are of the philosophy that he's not tellin' you anything. you have to learn from the street of hard knocks, just like he did. it's a philosophy carried through by everyone.

there is no formal training in american pool,,,,,no structure,,,,no organization. it belies pool's whole problem in it's place in sport.

also, no one grows up playing 14.1.
 
Well... at least you guys have the BCA, with their certified BCA instructors... then you have pool leagues like the APA, etc.

Sounds like decent structure and organization to me :)
 
Hi Thomas,

Hi all,


I don't want to take away from Raplh's superb instruction methods and knowledge but the main reason for beeing so successfull in straight pool is a different one. The league matches here always include all games (8 9 and 14-1) in all leagues. So everyone playing leaugue here in Germany is forced to play all games. To give you an idea of a league match in the 3 highest league:

4 players per team.

2 matches of straight pool to 125 points
4 matches of 9 ball = race to 9
2 matches of 8 ball = race to 7

So the team captain is forced to make a decision who is playing what as each player can play only 2 matches per league match. It is not possible that one player plays both matches in one discipline. So the same guy can not play both straight pool or 8 ball matches. So all players are forced to play all games well. Every player needs to gather experience in all games. Since all the league play is well organized in clubs and states and national, the knowledge will be passed on from the better players to the weaker ones in the clubs internally, and of course by getting lessons. Normally the clubs will make sure that the good players teach the younger ones- or from the lower leagues.

Markus
 
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I'm curious to see where things go for this generation with all the great knowledge on the Internet. Maybe that's why you see so many excellent young players? I've seen and learned in the school of "payme for the info" and that was the only way to learn some places.

I also remember junior bowling leagues and our coach for the league was a touring pro. Learning from him sped me along to where in 3 years I was ready for the regionals at age 17.

So, no real surprise Asian and European players are playing so well. Structured learning from accredited teachers pays off!

Gerry
 
ra[g]e said:
Well... at least you guys have the BCA, with their certified BCA instructors... then you have pool leagues like the APA, etc.

Sounds like decent structure and organization to me :)
Click to expand...

the proof is in the pudding. it is not an "organized system of education".
 
i210mfu said:
Hi Thomas,

Hi all,


I don't want to take away from Raplh's superb instruction methods and knowledge but the main reason for beeing so successfull in straight pool is a different one. The league matches here always include all games (8 9 and 14-1) in all leagues. So everyone playing leaugue here in Germany is forced to play all games. To give you an idea of a league match in the 3 highest league:

4 players per team.

2 matches of straight pool to 125 points
4 matches of 9 ball = race to 9
2 matches of 8 ball = race to 7

So the team captain is forced to make a decision who is playing what as each player can play only 2 matches per league match. It is not possible that one player plays both matches in one discipline. So the same guy can not play both straight pool or 8 ball matches. So all players are forced to play all games well. Every player needs to gather experience in all games. Since all the league play is well organized in clubs and states and national, the knowledge will be passed on from the better players to the weaker ones in the clubs internally, and of course by getting lessons. Normally the clubs will make sure that the good players teach the younger ones- or from the lower leagues.

Markus
Click to expand...

Well said. Europe has done far more to keep straight pool alive and breathing than America has, at both the amateur and pro levels. We just had the first major staight pool event in America since 2000. Contrastingly, the European Pool Championships has had a straight pool event every year in recent times, and nearly all the greatest stars of European Pool have won it.
 
bruin70 said:
the proof is in the pudding. it is not an "organized system of education".
Click to expand...

How much time have you spent with a good BCA instructor?
Steve
 
Could it be that it just so happens that two Germans, who are very good straight pool shooters, were playing great pool at the time of the US Worlds?

As matter of fact, there were about five or six shooters worthy of making the finals there.

I don't know why people would try to break down the quality of play from country to county based on this "finding".
 
litho said:
Hello,
did you recognized, that two germans stand in the final of the straight pool World championships? Yes you did! But do you know why especially the germans are so good?

In July 2000 Mike Shamos wrote an article in BD.
In his article 'Broken Rack' he comes to the following resume: "One major difference between our biliard scene and that of Asia and Europe has to do with the way learning is passed along. Most Americans learn by spending a frightening amount of time in pool halls. [...] In Europe and Asia there is a much grater degree of one-on-one instruction, probably because the players are not trying to earn a living hustling each other and therefore have nothing to lose from sharing their secrets."

These secrets were written down in 2000 only in German language in the book "Modernes Pool" by Ralph Eckert. Since the end of last year this book "Modern Pool" is available in english.

More Information you may find here: http://www.billiardbook.com

This said Thorsten Hohmann:
"Even before I became a professional, Ralph taught me many things that has had a tremendous impact on my career. When I became a professional his teachings became even more insightful. I can't help but pass on his knowledge to my students and share with my friends on the Pro Tour. In professional tournaments against the worlds best players, I still use the principles Ralph taught me."

Kind regards.
litho.
Click to expand...

What are the top 3 secrets revealed in this book?
 
The only secret to pool is that there are no secrets. It takes knowledge, dedication, and hard work to develop the skills required, just as it does for anything else. There is no magic wand. (or cue or tip or ferrule or shaft....)
Steve
 
One thing that has annoyed me is people saying your a natural blah blah. The truth was I practiced or was in action 10hrs. a day for 10yrs you have to put the hrs. in like a boxer who's training.You could relate this thread to 1-pocket play a world championship, and see how many players are from europe that place high Oh they don't play much one pocket, just like here in the US the young guys allwant to play 9-ball.
 
What Markus explained about league system in Germany is quite similiar with many European countries; there are 3 to 4 players and everyone plays two matches and those two must be in two different pool games.

That IMO really force people to play all pool games and actually leads to fact that best players really consentrate to teach lower level players in their team.
 
pooltchr said:
How much time have you spent with a good BCA instructor?
Steve
Click to expand...

hi steve,,,

how many GOOD(since you used the adjective) bca instructors are there, how accessable are they around the country to players like those who frequent this board,,,,,and since we're talking about elite level pros on this thread, how many bca instructors have taught top ten pros, and is there a system in place to develop elite level pros here is the US?

and i'm not talking about an incidence of saying something to a pro and going around taking credit for having "taught" that pro like so many players tend to do here in the US. i'm talking about taking a player under your wing like that taiwanese teacher that every aspiring player in taiwan goes to.

i don't think ginky, frankie, tony, zuglan, nick(the kid) or barouty were taught by a bca instructor.
 
Look at the pro tennis or golfers we don't recognize there instructors names, but they still have knowledge to share even if they were never greator well-recognized, my friend Lance Kepler is a BCA certified teacher buy his playing ability is limited by being in a wheelchair, I listen to his advice bacause he has a lot of knowledge to share.
 
@alstl

The expression "Secrets" used Mike Shamos in his article. But I will tell You that this secret is a complete what the author called "the program". In his book with 320 pages is the program discribed on over 250 pages. This program is more an traninig instruction with diffrent levels, and every time if your evolution will stop, and you don't know why, the author gives you the help you need. This is systamaticly and ends in the complete new Playining Ability Test (www.pat-billiard.com). The PAT-System is at the moment absolute hot and is used by a lot of european nations. The Japanese have interest as well, and in US it starts at the moment.

Sorry that I can not give you the answere that you want have, but do you mean, that a surgery can give three points as answere, if you like to ask him what his success is?
Probably he would say a good education and a system that shows you how to learn, and what to learn. At the end there is practice. And now tell me where do you start?
 
bruin70 said:
hi steve,,,

how many GOOD(since you used the adjective) bca instructors are there,There are over 100 active BCA instructors all over the country. How many are good enough to work with the pros? I can't give you an exact number, since I don't personally know them all, but I can think of a dozen very quickly who have worked with pro players, or who have the teaching skills to do so. how accessable are they around the country to players like those who frequent this boardSeveral of them post right here on a fairly regular basis. I'm sure anyone who wanted to make the effort could arrange to spend time with one of them. Scott Lee and RandyG both travel around the country teaching. Randy also operated a school in Dallas. Ohio, Wisconsin, Connecticut, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, California...They are all over the place.,,,,,and since we're talking about elite level pros on this thread, how many bca instructors have taught top ten pros,Again, since I don't know them all, I can't give a specific answer. I do know that several of the pros have been to various BCA instructors. and is there a system in place to develop elite level pros here is the US?There is an educational system in place. Who takes advantage of it, and what they do with the education is strictly up to the individual. It's like the old saying, "you can lead a horse to water...

and i'm not talking about an incidence of saying something to a pro and going around taking credit for having "taught" that pro like so many players tend to do here in the US. i'm talking about taking a player under your wing like that taiwanese teacher that every aspiring player in taiwan goes to.There are pros who schedule regular sessions with an instructor. I'm not going to name names, but they are pro's you have probably seen on television

i don't think ginky, frankie, tony, zuglan, nick(the kid) or barouty were taught by a bca instructor.
Click to expand...

Not every pro has used a BCA instructor. Many of them never had the opportunity. The instructor program hasn't been around as long as many of the players. Those who choose to take advantage, will no doubt agree it is worth the effort to find one and work with him/her. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Steve
 
lith is right

Not sure who you are litho, but thorsten is sitting with me here by the computer in NYC and he does agree with you. The main reason why the Germans and other European players are have always done well is the way they are taught.

As an example, Thorsten ahs been playing pool since 92. Since the day he started, he has been under the instruction of Michael Wahl in Fulda Germany. Pool in Europe is taught through drills at the table, during long conversations and hours doing sports at the gym. Players there try to train their minds and body for competition.

Ralph Eckert is a wonderful teacher as well, who has helped many top european players as well as thorsten.

Straight pool is played much more regularly over there as there are several major competitions held annually. In the usa, there is perhaps 1 or 2 medium sized events with top prizes of less than 5k. Us players, unfortunately are not really motivated to, for instance, fly to New Jersey, and compte in the NJ state championships for a top prize of a few thousand dollars.

There are many more reasons, including discipline why the germans in particular are excelling right now.

rg
 
NYC cue dude said:
Not sure who you are litho, but thorsten is sitting with me here by the computer in NYC and he does agree with you. The main reason why the Germans and other European players are have always done well is the way they are taught.

As an example, Thorsten ahs been playing pool since 92. Since the day he started, he has been under the instruction of Michael Wahl in Fulda Germany. Pool in Europe is taught through drills at the table, during long conversations and hours doing sports at the gym. Players there try to train their minds and body for competition.

Ralph Eckert is a wonderful teacher as well, who has helped many top european players as well as thorsten.

Straight pool is played much more regularly over there as there are several major competitions held annually. In the usa, there is perhaps 1 or 2 medium sized events with top prizes of less than 5k. Us players, unfortunately are not really motivated to, for instance, fly to New Jersey, and compte in the NJ state championships for a top prize of a few thousand dollars.

There are many more reasons, including discipline why the germans in particular are excelling right now.

rg
Click to expand...

i sense, in general, that the system is more collaborative in countries other than the US. it's very guarded here. secretive....like anything they show you they think you'll use against them.

maybe it's POOL specifically. i know i can go to carom cafe, and there are any number of 3C players who would take their time to explain the game to me.

that is the mental makeup of the players who play pool and players who play 3C. you certainly can't blame lack of money as the root cause, since 3C players make virtually nothing here in the states.
 
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