2nd ball break

dbgordie said:
I'm not trying anything. I'm doing it apparently. I said that your pointing out their misuse of the word was "wrong". Not that you said they where wrong. I said you doing so was wrong. You implied they didn't know what it meant. I put up the definition. Hope that's "way clear" for you now. Just so everybody knows. Yes, I'm bored and have nothing better to do. This is funny to me. :)
Click to expand...



Add me to the camp that immediately understood what PJ meant when he asked what “works” meant.

He was asking the poster to clarify if that meant he was making the eight on the break for a win, making a ball on the break perhaps, creating clusters that only he was able to break out and not his weaker opponent etc.

This was already explained earlier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I do the head-on break and get a great spread. When I’m hitting it good, the cueball pops and stays center table. Sometimes I scratch in the side or draw into the corner. But when I hit it good, it’s almost always a runnable table. Unfortunately I’m breaking dry a lot. Way too much. I keep trying things to make it work. Harder, softer, breaking from different spots, etc. I want to make the second row balls in the sides or the corner balls four rails or a lucky kiss. But I’m not finding it.

The second ball break is interesting. I can pocket the opposite corner ball straight into the corner. The 8 ball tracks towards the side pocket too. Some try to have the CB draw to the side rail back into the stack for more spread which kills the CB movement. A touch of inside English seems to help the 8 ball track to the side. For me that pulls the CB to the bottom rail and up under the mass of balls. It’s not a center table leave but there is almost always one shot to get started with. Since the CB comes from the side, the balls tend to hit the opposite side rail, rebound, and settle grouped up on the side I was shooting from. Taking power off the break can make it so not too many balls are grouped on one side of the table. Either way, you end up with more clusters this way regardless. Top shooters favor this because they can work the patterns and breakouts better. It can lead to more safety battles and longer games.

I think 2nd ball tends to work a lot better than head on with racks that aren’t as tight as could be.
 
Last edited:
Luxury said:
Add me to the camp that immediately understood what PJ meant when he asked what “works” meant.

He was asking the poster to clarify if that meant he was making the eight on the break for a win, making a ball on the break perhaps, creating clusters that only he was able to break out and not his weaker opponent etc.

This was already explained earlier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Re-read the first four posts on this thread. Sounds like he told you what he meant. Of course it was clear as mud, to the rest of us. He implied they used the word "works" incorrectly. He was proven wrong. Now he gets his friends to try to make me feel like I'm the one with a problem. He never asked the poster for more then a definition. It's easy for you to say this is what he meant. He could have easily done so himself. I think he was just starting stuff and wasn't expecting someone to call him on it. Like I wrote before, I have nothing but time, and I'm bored.

:thumbup:
 
Well, I want to thank everyone who participated today. Especially PJ. Without whom, my day would have felt much longer. Thanks for the entertainment.
 
dbgordie said:
Re-read the first four posts on this thread. Sounds like he told you what he meant. Of course it was clear as mud, to the rest of us. He implied they used the word "works" incorrectly. He was proven wrong. Now he gets his friends to try to make me feel like I'm the one with a problem. He never asked the poster for more then a definition. It's easy for you to say this is what he meant. He could have easily done so himself. I think he was just starting stuff and wasn't expecting someone to call him on it. Like I wrote before, I have nothing but time, and I'm bored.



:thumbup:
Click to expand...



I took it as he wasn't expecting the other people to be so dim witted. Sometimes a reminder is helpful. I believe some came through on that reminder.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Patrick Johnson said:
School tomorrow, huh? I bet the guys in AV'll be like "Dood!"

Way to go.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Okay PJ, I've been nice to you so far. It sounds like your the one still in high school. I'm not. Haven't been since 89. Maybe you can do the math. I doubt it. I don't think English or math is/was a strong class of yours. Dude you need to go back to school and take an English class.
 
fastone371 said:
I support Mr. Johnsons reason for not preferring 2nd ball break in 8 ball, except for reason #2, I find that many more players scratch in the side pockets or bottom corners hitting the head ball first. I play a lot of 8 ball, I personally do not like the 2nd ball break because I seem to get a lot of bad layouts on the table as far as clusters and often the balls seem to favor 1 side of the table. If I cant get anything in along the head string line hitting the head ball I will switch to a 2nd ball break, right up until the first break where nothing falls, then I go back to the head ball. I work (theres that word again) pretty hard on my break. I have found that if you hit the head ball square and the cue ball stays on the center line of the table so all of the energy is transferred into the rack you dont have to break very hard to make balls and get a good spread, in fact on a Diamond bar box it seems like a softer break is better than a hard break for dropping balls and getting a decent spread.
Click to expand...

I agree with alot of what is said here.

If I need to win the game, and ball count doesn't matter, I'm going to break to the 2nd ball. I have a higher % of making a ball that way (especially diamonds - almost a sure thing) I don't care so much about the layout if I make a ball, I feel I have a high % chance to win, because I'm at the table.
The LAST thing I ever want to do is break them wide open and not make a ball, or scratch. The chances of both of those things is much higher breaking to the head ball.
However, the chances of breaking and running out are higher by breaking to the head ball, so if I have to break and run, regardless of the opponent, I will break hard to the head ball and take my chances.

Valley tables, I like to be able to hit a few breaks to see what has the best chance to work. (although with Valleys, I've found the "sweet spot" and made balls 7n or 8 breaks in a row, then broke dry 5 times in a row from the same spot - so who knows?

Diamonds, I only have to figure out how hard to hit the break
 
JohnnyOzone said:
Valley tables, I like to be able to hit a few breaks to see what has the best chance to work. (although with Valleys, I've found the "sweet spot" and made balls 7n or 8 breaks in a row, then broke dry 5 times in a row from the same spot - so who knows?



Diamonds, I only have to figure out how hard to hit the break
Click to expand...



My guess is that playing on a Valley is also indicative of the cloth, balls and rack situation you’re working with. I suspect my breaking would be better if I could just give myself a tight rack more consistently.
 
dbgordie said:
Re-read the first four posts on this thread. Sounds like he told you what he meant. Of course it was clear as mud, to the rest of us. He implied they used the word "works" incorrectly. He was proven wrong. Now he gets his friends to try to make me feel like I'm the one with a problem. He never asked the poster for more then a definition. It's easy for you to say this is what he meant. He could have easily done so himself. I think he was just starting stuff and wasn't expecting someone to call him on it. Like I wrote before, I have nothing but time, and I'm bored.



:thumbup:
Click to expand...



I reread the first four posts as well as the 9th post where PJ clearly explained what he meant. I’ve never met PJ he’s never message me. To me it’s just so obvious that he never could have been trying to correct the grammar or usage because 100% of the people have accepted the way they were using “works.” He clearly just wanted more specifics.

I think you made a mountain out of a mole hill but at least you were entertained for the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Oh and for the record, i’m a tad surprised that Patrick didn’t know how effective the second ball break was at making the 8.

My team needed one more game to win the championship and I called the eight in the opposite side I was breaking from and it went straight in.

I’ve seen it made three times in a row.

If the eight doesn’t count as a win I break hard at the head ball and get a killer spread. I have a breakrak and have got my break up to 24 miles an hour.

If the rack is bad and I’m just playing in a bar and don’t want to call out the racker, I break second ball for sure.
 
I have used the 2nd ball and 3rd ball breaks with extremely great success.

Over the past few years I've been hitting a hard head ball break though. After reading this thread I'm making the switch back to a 2nd ball break and a 3rd ball when the table calls for it.

My experience has been roughly 90% making a ball on a 2nd ball break and less than 5% of a scratch. Sometimes a cluster or two but manageable and a advantage if you play strategically compared to your opponent.

My head ball is a monster and I'm known for a great break but I'm probably only at 75 to 85% on making a ball and close to 15% of a scratch. It's just not worth it for myself anymore. The advantage is I rarely have a cluster and have a 'duck' table but so do my opponents when I break 'dry' or scratch.

Thanks for bringing this topic up.
 
Last edited:
I use a second ball break. I do not do the traditional setup from the side rail, I play it from the headstring one diamond in from the side rail. This technique has basically fixed scratching issues that are present when I shoot from the side rail and don't hit the ball low enough.
 
Luxury said:
Oh and for the record, i’m a tad surprised that Patrick didn’t know how effective the second ball break was at making the 8.
Click to expand...
Does anybody know? I’ve never seen a real tally taken.

My team needed one more game to win the championship and I called the eight in the opposite side I was breaking from and it went straight in.

I’ve seen it made three times in a row.
Click to expand...
I’ve heard similar anecdotes too - but anecdotes don’t tell us if it’s noticed more because it’s actually happening more or because we’ve been told to expect it (confirmation bias). I suspect that if it really happens more it’s a very small increase, and maybe outweighed by drawbacks - IF it really happens more in the first place.

I don’t think we know.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
... I don't use the 2nd-ball break in 8-ball. ... some reasons it doesn't work for me:

- less CB control
- more chance of scratching
- less likely CB ends up center table (where most shots are)
- more accuracy needed
- harder to be accurate with bottom and/or side
- less power into the rack with offcenter hit on CB
- less power into the rack with offcenter hit on OB
- never seen any actual evidence that more 8 balls (or OBs) go
Click to expand...
For those interested, the 2nd ball break (with advantages and disadvantages) is covered in detail on the 8-ball break resource page.

Some stats of its effectiveness at the pro level can be found here: "8-Ball Break Stats" (BD, August, 2016). The 8-ball definitely goes more frequently with a 2nd-ball break.

In the past, I used a power break from close to the center in 8-ball, and I thought I was pretty good at it. Then I started having elbow discomfort, so I decided to do an experiment. I kept stats during practice sessions with my league team alternating between my power break and the 2nd ball break. I was shocked when the stats (after about 100 breaks each) showed I got slightly better results with the 2nd ball break (slightly better ball-make percentage and lower scratch percentage). Now I use the 2nd-ball break exclusively in league and I no longer have elbow pain. Sometimes the ball spread after the break can be a little weird, but that doesn't bother me so much.

Regards,
Dave
 
Luxury said:
Oh and for the record, i’m a tad surprised that Patrick didn’t know how effective the second ball break was at making the 8.
Click to expand...

Patrick Johnson said:
Does anybody know? I’ve never seen a real tally taken.


I’ve heard similar anecdotes too - but anecdotes don’t tell us if it’s noticed more because it’s actually happening more or because we’ve been told to expect it (confirmation bias). I suspect that if it really happens more it’s a very small increase, and maybe outweighed by drawbacks - IF it really happens more in the first place.

I don’t think we know.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

dr_dave said:
For those interested, the 2nd ball break (with advantages and disadvantages) is covered in detail on the 8-ball break resource page.

Some stats of its effectiveness at the pro level can be found here: "8-Ball Break Stats" (BD, August, 2016). The 8-ball definitely goes more frequently with a 2nd-ball break.
....

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Interesting :lol:

Dave
 
dr_dave said:
For those interested, the 2nd ball break (with advantages and disadvantages) is covered in detail on the 8-ball break resource page.

Some stats of its effectiveness at the pro level can be found here: "8-Ball Break Stats" (BD, August, 2016). The 8-ball definitely goes more frequently with a 2nd-ball break.

In the past, I used a power break from close to the center in 8-ball, and I thought I was pretty good at it. Then I started having elbow discomfort, so I decided to do an experiment. I kept stats during practice sessions with my league team alternating between my power break and the 2nd ball break. I was shocked when the stats (after about 100 breaks each) showed I got slightly better results with the 2nd ball break (slightly better ball-make percentage and lower scratch percentage). Now I use the 2nd-ball break exclusively in league and I no longer have elbow pain. Sometimes the ball spread after the break can be a little weird, but that doesn't bother me so much.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Interesting stats - I didn't know you had those. Looks like there is a statistical basis for 2nd-ball break advantages. Good to know.

Thanks,

pj
chgo
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top