3 3/4” corners?

Here are the WPA equipment specs for pockets. Not that anyone pays attention to specs these days. :giggle:

9. POCKET OPENINGS AND MEASUREMENTS​

Only rubber facings of minimum 1/16 [1.5875 mm] to maximum ¼ inch [6.35 mm] thick may be used at pocket jaws. The WPA-preferred maximum thickness for facings is 1/8 inch [3.175 mm]. The facings on both sides of the pockets must be of the same thickness. Facings must be of hard re-enforced rubber glued with strong bond to the cushion and the rail, and adequately fastened to the wood rail liner to prevent shifting. The rubber of the facings should be somewhat harder than that of the cushions.

The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other – where the nose of the cushion changes direction – to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ¼ inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here are the WPA equipment specs for pockets. Not that anyone pays attention to specs these days. :giggle:

9. POCKET OPENINGS AND MEASUREMENTS​

Only rubber facings of minimum 1/16 [1.5875 mm] to maximum ¼ inch [6.35 mm] thick may be used at pocket jaws. The WPA-preferred maximum thickness for facings is 1/8 inch [3.175 mm]. The facings on both sides of the pockets must be of the same thickness. Facings must be of hard re-enforced rubber glued with strong bond to the cushion and the rail, and adequately fastened to the wood rail liner to prevent shifting. The rubber of the facings should be somewhat harder than that of the cushions.

The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other – where the nose of the cushion changes direction – to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ¼ inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]
Click to expand...
Yeah, its interesting that we all seem to reference WPA specs, but most sanctioned pro events and equipment vendors seem fairly selective about which specs they really follow. Ball colors, pocket sizes…

As an aside, for me one of the weirder WPA specs is the huge range allowed on corner pocket shelf depth (1.0 - 2.25”), especially with a fairly narrow range allowed for vertical facing angle (12-15 deg)… My GC6 TE has 4.25” mouths, 142.5 deg horizontal PFA’s and 1.3” deep corner shelves (1.14 on Dr Dave TDF scale). Don’t know what my down angles are but it plays annoyingly tough…

Are there any tables out there that actually have > 1.5” shelf depth? Seems like nothing would drop on such an animal?
 
Last edited:
Bob Jewett said:
Here are the WPA equipment specs for pockets. Not that anyone pays attention to specs these days. :giggle:

9. POCKET OPENINGS AND MEASUREMENTS​

Only rubber facings of minimum 1/16 [1.5875 mm] to maximum ¼ inch [6.35 mm] thick may be used at pocket jaws. The WPA-preferred maximum thickness for facings is 1/8 inch [3.175 mm]. The facings on both sides of the pockets must be of the same thickness. Facings must be of hard re-enforced rubber glued with strong bond to the cushion and the rail, and adequately fastened to the wood rail liner to prevent shifting. The rubber of the facings should be somewhat harder than that of the cushions.

The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other – where the nose of the cushion changes direction – to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ¼ inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]
Click to expand...
BCA corner specs are 4 7/8 to 5 1/4 with the same 142 angle. I thought the Diamonds at 4 1/2 are supposed to be 141 because it’s tighter.
 
jtompilot said:
BCA corner specs are 4 7/8 to 5 1/4 with the same 142 angle. I thought the Diamonds at 4 1/2 are supposed to be 141 because it’s tighter.
Click to expand...
Yes, all covered in my nerdy post above…?

BCA spec is 4-7/8 to 5-1/8 by the way, not 5-1/4. Both WPA & BCA actually specify 142 +/- 1 deg, ie a range of 141-143 deg. So I guess that covers the “standard” BW & Diamond 4.5-5.0” ish mouths. 141 seems to be ideal for 4.5’s and for moth openings smaller than that, one needs to tweak the throat in tighter accordingly, to get same overall pocketing affect (to maintain a sensible mouth to throat ratio). The 1/8” per 1 deg rule of thumb from RKC seems pretty spot on.

✌️
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
Wow! 3.75” should probably be 135 degrees (parallel facings). Or even the other direction like valley bar boxes.

The closest professional table I’m aware of is the bonus ball table. Fast Lenny (I believe) on here designed the pockets at 4” and parallel facings. The idea was if you enter the mouth clean the ball would always drop. I think they did that. I don’t recall weird rattles.
 
jtompilot said:
BCA corner specs are 4 7/8 to 5 1/4 with the same 142 angle. I thought the Diamonds at 4 1/2 are supposed to be 141 because it’s tighter.
Click to expand...
Those are for "recreational" tables, not official tournament specs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
I took the liberty of extrapolating the RKC rule-of-thumb for mouth size vs horizontal PFA into a table, that also shows the relevant BCA/WPA specs. My takeaway is that the BCA/WPA range of 141-143 degrees works fine for generously sized pockets 4.5-5.0" in the recreational range. But 4.5 to 4.25" mouths play much better with 141 deg which is what we see on Diamond pro-cuts. Below that, it seems one really needs to pay closer attention to the ratio, and for 4.0" & below, throat size gets very near to parallel (135) to ensure one can still pocket a ball.

I'm no table mechanic, and I'm not saying this info is "correct". This is simply my interpretation of "expert" guidance that's been spread out over many threads for years, and it seems to track pretty perfectly with info thats been shared from some experienced AZB-ers across a variety of tight pocket tables and the good/bad playability results that have been reported on them.

Any/all comments & corrections are welcome!

Hope its useful. ✌️

1668046940266.png
 

Attachments

  • 1668045808896.png
    1668045808896.png
    115.9 KB · Views: 98
Last edited:
phreaticus said:
I took the liberty of extrapolating the RKC rule-of-thumb for mouth size vs horizontal PFA into a table, that also shows the relevant BCA/WPA specs. My takeaway is that the BCA/WPA range of 141-143 degrees works fine for generously sized pockets 4.5-5.0" in the recreational range. But 4.5 to 4.25" mouths play much better with 141 deg which is what we see on Diamond pro-cuts. Below that, it seems one really needs to pay closer attention to the ratio, and for 4.0" & below, throat size gets very near to parallel (135) to ensure one can still pocket a ball.

I'm no table mechanic, and I'm not saying this info is "correct". This is simply my interpretation of "expert" guidance that's been spread out over many threads for years, and it seems to track pretty perfectly with info thats been shared from some experienced AZB-ers across a variety of tight pocket tables and the good/bad playability results that have been reported on them.

Any/all comments & corrections are welcome!

Hope its useful. ✌️

View attachment 670420
Click to expand...
Thanks for the chart.
I’m guessing the 3 3/4 corners at Sandcastle are Brunswick stock 143. They visually look like Olhausen pockets🤣
Iron City Billiards look much better. I wish I tested their pockets
 
buckshotshoey said:
I agree. There does come a point where pockets that are too tight detract from the game. I mean let's just make them 2 3/8 so there is never a single run out ever again. 4 inches is more then tight enough...even for a pro

As for room owners, if they charge by the hour (smart tables work well for this), then it wouldn't matter if a single game took 1/2 an hour.

For the OP, I dont think the angle should change too much for smaller pockets. Should still be around 138 to 143 degrees. Check on Dr Dave's site. I believe I seen some of the info you are looking for. I can't remember where and I really dont have the time to look for it now.
Click to expand...
Even for pros 4" is getting too tight. The game will start looking like chinese 8 ball where you practically have to slow roll everything...boring. I have 4 1/4" pro cut pockets on my 9 ball diamond and its the sweet spot for challenging enough to keep you honest, but can still let the cue go.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Wow! 3.75” should probably be 135 degrees (parallel facings). Or even the other direction like valley bar boxes.

The closest professional table I’m aware of is the bonus ball table. Fast Lenny (I believe) on here designed the pockets at 4” and parallel facings. The idea was if you enter the mouth clean the ball would always drop. I think they did that. I don’t recall weird rattles.
Click to expand...
The facings were parallel because Ernesto did them. No need for 4" pockets to be parallel.
 
Chinese 8 ball pockets are also very tight. I like practice on that too to really get emphasis to pinpoint position play.
 
rexus31 said:
The facings were parallel because Ernesto did them. No need for 4" pockets to be parallel.
Click to expand...
It came from the bonus ball guys though. It was either Lenny or Ethan (maybe I have the wrong name?). One of them wrote on here at the time that they always wanted a table setup like this for the pros, and thus directed the mechanic for the bonus ball table to set it up that way. So accuracy had to be high, but if no rail was brushed on the way to the mouth, the ball would always drop even at high speeds.
 
jtompilot said:
A month ago I was hitting some balls at Sandcastle Billiards on a GC with 3 3/4” corners. I froze four balls on the long rail above the side pocket. At pretty hard speed hit the ball would hang in the corner. It looked like pocket angle wasn’t quite right.

Saturday I was at Iron City Billiards and they have two Blue label Diamonds with 3 3/4” corners. Those tables are stupid tight. Anyways, if someone can freeze four balls on the long rail for me and test the corners I’d appreciate it. Thanks

Does anyone know what the pocket angles should be on a table that tight?
Click to expand...
On pockets that tight, you need virtually parallel pocket facing angles, which would be 135°. As pockets get that tight, the depth of the pocket shelves get extremely shallow.
 
iusedtoberich said:
It came from the bonus ball guys though. It was either Lenny or Ethan (maybe I have the wrong name?). One of them wrote on here at the time that they always wanted a table setup like this for the pros, and thus directed the mechanic for the bonus ball table to set it up that way. So accuracy had to be high, but if no rail was brushed on the way to the mouth, the ball would always drop even at high speeds.
Click to expand...
There's a bunch of tables up and down CA that are setup like that.
 
ChrisinNC said:
On pockets that tight, you need virtually parallel pocket facing angles, which would be 135°. As pockets get that tight, the depth of the pocket shelves get extremely shallow.
Click to expand...
you are not the only one to mention parallel pocket facing angle being 135 degrees
how is 135 degrees parallel?
.
 
bbb said:
you are not the only one to mention parallel pocket facing angle being 135 degrees
how is 135 degrees parallel?
.
Click to expand...
The same way 142 degrees results in a pocket with facings that have a very minor funnel behind the mouth. It's arbitrary where the measurement is taken from. There are a few places that make equal sense.

I personally think it would have made more sense to call parallel facings 0 degrees, and call out the funnel angle from that reference. So our pockets would have been plus 5 degrees or minus 5 degrees from parallel, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top