3 ahead or Backwards from the 9?

[Chi2dxa]

Which do you do? Buddy Hall says think 3 balls ahead so you do not run out of shots. Johnny Archer sees the whole table and maps it out backards from the 9ball. Both are easier said than done both are good ways to look at the table but what do you do and why? For those that see backwards this is really complex from my perspective so what helps you in your quest to map a table?

Here is Johnny doing his thing on Modern Marvels a few years back. He starts at 29:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAtrGGXhTWc

 

[lorider]

i gave up on going from the 9 back , i just dont have the cue ball control.

i do try to think 3 shots ahead but after the 2nd shot i am usually out of position and have to make a - as one of my teamates calls them - a holy chit shot . lol

 

[Chi2dxa]

I lack the mental capacity to go backwards from the 9 and need help.

 

[elvicash]

They are the same thing one is longer than the other. Do not go forward when 3 balls you need to go backwards for the next three balls. If you have that capability then you go back for the next four, five etc all the way back from the nine. Even if you cannot go all the way back from the nine you should at least do three AND notice potential issues ahead such as clusters, small openings and tight positions.

I try to look at the table from the 9 to the current ball noticing issues as mentioned and then play 3 positions ahead noticing the line on each ball and an exact position for the cue ball for at least those three balls. But when I do that I start at the third ball and work back to the current ball.

You need to play backwards no matter how many balls you play. Know where you want to be at the end and how can you get there all the way back to where your are now and then focusing on a single execution, complete that shot, re-assess and if on plan work the next three balls and repeat if off plan inspect the whole thing and make a new plan.

You can never achieve your plan if you do not have a plan to start with so make a plan they do not cost much.

 

[ShootingArts]

I think I go fronnerds bass ackwards and sidemost ways

At some point after working out patterns it becomes much like checking out a chessboard. When looking at possibilities on a chess board do you usually go frontwards or backwards or absorb the entire situation?

If I don't see the entire pattern I usually go frontwards and if I run into a problem I back up a ball or two and try again. I don't really buy into the rolling three ball thing and strongly suspect that Buddy might have recommended that but it isn't what he actually does. Often the pattern to get on the fourth or fifth ball may have depended on how you played the first or second ball, before the three ahead people even considered the fourth or fifth ball. You want to have a plan for dealing with messes early too although contrary to doctrine I don't go out of my way to take care of them early if I am going to get a better opportunity later in a run.

Hu

 

[3andstop]

I certainly would look for open pockets for all the balls right off the bat.

I also look for which pocket the 9 would most easily go into after pocketing the 8 and which is the most logical pocket for the 8. Things like that are what I think all players should do. A cursory overview of everything.

Then, is it a runout table or at which ball will I be playing safe off of. Then you have to think 3 balls ahead to get an angle for an angle for an angle, regrouping your thoughts 3 balls ahead again,after pocketing each ball, not after pocketing the second or third ball in your mental sequence.

 

[RRfireblade]

This might sound more complicated than it is but at all happens pretty automatic in my head. Let me see if I can explain it where it makes sense.

Not all layouts require a full table pattern. Most often there is room for a re-layout midstreem if needed. So ....

First I establish any problem areas and "thee" shot that will make or break the run if there are any.

Then I "check" 3 shots back from the money ball, determin how exact I need to be there.

I do the same check of the problem area should it had existed.

Then I start the run looking the typical 3 shots head. I'm aware at this point of the critical positional shots and the shots that have more room for error this way I don't feel pressured through the whole run. It becomes like a couple of mini runs which makes the table seem easier to me.

 

[Chi2dxa]

Thinking out loud.

As an artist I have found that if I reproduce another artist's work I will eventually see what they see to the point that I don't even have to look at their painting to know where the next brush stroke will go. This is just me thinking out loud but do think that by laying out a pattern exactly the way Johnny Archer's ball are laid out on the table and repeating the way that he got to the 9 ball will I eventually see a pattern backward from the 9? Could any of you see a pattern backwards using this method?

 

[RRfireblade]

As an artist I have found that if I reproduce another artist's work I will eventually see what they see to the point that I don't even have to look at their painting to know where the next brush stroke will go. This is just me thinking out loud but do think that by laying out a pattern exactly the way Johnny Archer's ball are laid out on the table and repeating the way that he got to the 9 ball will I eventually see a pattern backward from the 9? Could any of you see a pattern backwards using this method?

I can always see a full pattern back but you have to be prepared for missed position, in which case you may not want to limit yourself right off the start. Understanding what shots have flexibility and those that are absolutely critical is the key IMO.

 

[lorider]

As an artist I have found that if I reproduce another artist's work I will eventually see what they see to the point that I don't even have to look at their painting to know where the next brush stroke will go. This is just me thinking out loud but do think that by laying out a pattern exactly the way Johnny Archer's ball are laid out on the table and repeating the way that he got to the 9 ball will I eventually see a pattern backward from the 9? Could any of you see a pattern backwards using this method?

the biggest problem with that is cue ball control.

if you could control the cueball like archer you would not even be on here asking that question.

nothing derogatory meant, just saying. :wink:

 

[Chi2dxa]

the biggest problem with that is cue ball control.

if you could control the cueball like archer you would not even be on here asking that question.

nothing derogatory meant, just saying. :wink:

Belive it or not but my CB control is not that bad, it is seeing and trying to execute patterns is where I am having trouble. On the Buddy hall tapes that I have if he says put the CB here I can put it there. If he says lay it on the rail I can lay it on the rail soft as a butterfly with sore feet. I find myself asking how did he see this way or that way to get out.

 

[RRfireblade]

I think you may be in denial. If you could put the CB in any position then you could run any pattern.

 

[Chi2dxa]

I think you may be in denial. If you could put the CB in any position then you could run any pattern.

You maybe right, but I doubt it.:wink:

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

3 ahead or backwards from the 9, sometimes even 4 ahead. There are many rules of thumb you could use. But I think it works like it does in chess. You can use generalizations like "double pawns are bad" or "bishop pair > knight pair". But every rule has many exceptions.
A good player knows the rules. A master knows the exceptions of those rules. A grandmaster knows the excpetions of the exceptions and forms them into new rules.
There are 9-Ball situations where a rule of thumb like "4 ahead" will not suffice.

 

[victorl]

I play 3 balls ahead most of the time.

After the break, I have a quick look at the table and see if:
A) I have a good chance of running out and
B) Which balls are in tough spots or require precision shape

A good habit to get into is to do the same after your opponent's break too. Then if you get a chance at the table, you'll already know exactly what needs to be done.

 

[Aaron_S]

Looking 3 balls ahead is the bare minimum. You really need to look at the entire table before you start your run to know what the best approach is. Maybe you can run the first 4 perfectly, but if the 6-ball is tied up and the 2-ball presents a perfect opportunity to play a lock up safety and separate the cluster at the same time, you need to see that and consider that possibility.

There's a lot more strategy to 9-ball than most people give it credit for. A good player can run a lot of racks by making tough shots and spinning his rock all over the place, but sometimes there are opportunities to simplify runouts by by doing subtle things like bumping a ball here or playing a simple carom to rearrange the layout there. A great player will be looking far enough ahead to recognize those opportunities and take advantage of them.

Aaron

 

[Scaramouche]

You lose racks by missing shots and leaving your opponent in good position.

In the movie Searching For Bobby Fisher the chess master teaching the kid tells him:

'Don't move until you see it'.

Billiards isn't as precise as chess, a billiard ball can go anywhere. There is a huge range of difficulty between a series of stop shots to win and a series of very thin cuts with caroms and combinations to gain position and break open balls. Depends on how well you can execute consistently. Requires self-knowledge. Many players have limited recognition of their own deficiencies. :grin:

Them you should be beat every time.

 

[rrick33]

3 shots?

I see the entire run from the 1 through the 9 in a forward progression. At that point, I don't need to focus on three shots ahead. I have already invisioned the table 8 shots ahead. I only need to revise my vision if I get out of shape and have to rethink my approach.

I had to spend many years looking 3 shots ahead and developing my positioning skills before it became easy to see 8 shots ahead with comptency.

 

[Chi2dxa]

I never looked at 9 ball from the chess perspective and that is most likely my failure.

Scaramouche 'Don't move until you see it'. Good advice and
"Many players have limited recognition of their own deficiencies." This sounds like me.

Aaron_S "There's a lot more strategy to 9-ball than most people give it credit for. " I did take it for granted because those who play it good make it look so easy.

Thank you all for the good advice.