3 Cushion League ideas needed

Trouble

New member
Hello everybody, this is my first post, and I'd like some advice from the knowledgeable.

I have the unique opportunity to start a 3-cushion league at my local hall; we have two 5x10 Gabriels to play on. We've gathered the interest of 12 adept pool players with little or no experience with 3 cushion. I have read every thread on here asking the same thing, and am hoping for a little more detail since I will be starting from scratch. I would like this league to be a fun and interesting way to learn and promote the game, especially since if this doesn't happen these tables are going bye-bye.

What I would like to know is in what format would be the best way to run this league with relative beginners that have good experience with controlling the cue ball, albeit in a different way. What would be a good race for each match, especially starting out, that wouldn't be too difficult to get to with this level of play? I know that probably depends on the format that we choose. This will likely be a trial run, where we could change anything depending on everyone's input, before it becomes solidified into an actual league. A suggested start was 12 weeks. We do have an experienced player in the area that told us he'd be willing to give a few lessons on how to play the right way; all of his inputs are greatly regarded.

A few ideas I've had:
1) We could have everyone play a match each week, where the players themselves would schedule a time with their opponents and they would report their scores.
2) We could have a single day when all matches will be played in blocks of time, say 2 hours each, where end of game depends on reaching the points or their allotted time.
3) Short race round robin on a single day.

The benefit of 2 and 3 would be that we are playing on both tables at the same time so that we could commune, watch, and learn from each other while playing. I feel like 1 would be easy to do, but it takes away the "all of us playing billiards together" aspect, and I feel like it's important to have that community. Option 2 would make it so not everyone has to be there at the same time waiting for a match; they could come in at their time, or before and watch or play pool while waiting. If our starting league was 12 weeks, options 1 and 2 would let everyone play everyone else just once. Again, these are just nebulous thoughts that need help solidifying.

Handicaps would be necessary, and I have read some posts made by Bob Jewett that make a lot of sense.

I dunno guys, I'm really in the dark here and need a flashlight. I would love to hear ANY and ALL advice you have to give. Thanks!

A little about myself: I was taught how to play pool when I was 18, and when I came across 3-cushion I fell in love; I tend to gravitate toward the unique and under-appreciated things in life. Back then there wasn't a whole lot of information out there on 3c, and the nearest table was 1.5 hours away from my college. So I bought a few books, Billiard Atlas and DPM's dissertation, as well as my own 9' carom table that I put in my parents garage where it remained for several years before I sold it to finance an epic road trip. I learned a lot playing on that table, but haven't played for years because there aren't tables around or many people to play with. A renewed interest was sparked recently by a friend of mine in our 8-ball league, and I've just been digging into it since, hence the hopeful start of this new league. My years of experience in pool since I've had that table, I feel, has made me more capable of playing now than ever before, and I'm quite excited to start. Cheers!
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the schedule-it-yourself round robin could work but as you noted the social/learning part is lower.

Many years ago at Bob Byrne's home room, there was handicapped league that was based on tournaments. On Thursday nights, there would be a single elim tournament on three tables. The handicap method was simple: if you won a match, your required points would go up by 0.1 point and if you lost it would go down by 0.1 point. The matches were short -- maybe 10 points for an average player. Most of the weekly entry fee was returned as prizes at the end of each night. (I think the best player was about a 22 and the weakest a 4 or 5. The adjustment might have been faster for new players.)

You could also do round robins with eight players on a given night. First eight to sign up are in. Form two groups of four and play a full round robin in each. Everyone gets three matches, and there are six rounds total, so the matches have to be short -- 30-40 minutes. Alternate the two groups on the tables so everyone has breaks between matches. If you have a payout, it could be by most wins in the season -- promotes attendance -- and winning percentage -- promotes wanting to get better. This would take 3-4 hours and each player would be in a match roughly half the time.

You could also do a mini/finals format on league night. As soon a four players are at the room, they play a single-elim tournament to find a qualifier for the finals. As more people arrive you run more 4-player single elims. It's OK to enter more than once if you get knocked out early, but the finals have to start by 10PM, say. You probably want short matches again, like 30-40 minutes.

Do not base handicaps on per-inning average. That just promotes slow play and rewards sandbaggers. I think the hardest part of handicapping is the setting the initial rating. You sort of have to guess for new players and sometimes you have to adjust them after a few matches.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I really can't speak to the setting up a league aspect, but I think it would be wise to encourage the educational aspect initially. Maybe schedule some times where a few can get together and set up and try some of the shots in Byrnes' book. Make sure they know that there are tons of videos on YouTube where they can see the best in the world play and the wide variety of shots in 3c. Good luck. I envy you the access to 2 good tables. I had that for about 7 years, and then moved to a 3c desert.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I really can't speak to the setting up a league aspect, but I think it would be wise to encourage the educational aspect initially. Maybe schedule some times where a few can get together and set up and try some of the shots in Byrnes' book. Make sure they know that there are tons of videos on YouTube where they can see the best in the world play and the wide variety of shots in 3c. Good luck. I envy you the access to 2 good tables. I had that for about 7 years, and then moved to a 3c desert.
Of course Bob's thoughts are really good but I was thinking down this road to get things rolling. Short Term!
Paul Frankel used to run Shot Contests. He had a standard set of shot layouts. I'm sure somewhere on his ProfessorQBall sit he's posted the shots.

This is the best I can do
 

Zerksies

Well-known member
Did a bracket tournament years ago, Where people could set their own time to play the match. I think we limited it to a number of days to play to get the match over with. It was about 16 players and it lasted over a month.
 

Trouble

New member
Thank you all for your replies, I appreciate hearing from you.
I really can't speak to the setting up a league aspect, but I think it would be wise to encourage the educational aspect initially.
The experienced player in our area mentioned this as well; kinda hard to play a game you don't know much about. I've also had the thought of stressing the importance of watching the professionals, and trying out a few common shots. I know I learn something new with every match I see, many of which I would have never thought of. I actually do have a copy of Byrne's book, courtesy of a friend, thank you for the 'shots' suggestion.

You could also do round robins with eight players on a given night. First eight to sign up are in. Form two groups of four and play a full round robin in each. Everyone gets three matches, and there are six rounds total, so the matches have to be short -- 30-40 minutes. Alternate the two groups on the tables so everyone has breaks between matches. If you have a payout, it could be by most wins in the season -- promotes attendance -- and winning percentage -- promotes wanting to get better. This would take 3-4 hours and each player would be in a match roughly half the time.
Bob, thank you for your detailed post. This format speaks to me the most, and would seem to be the most enjoyable for the people involved, based on what I know about them, but like I've said before, nothing is set in stone and I'll relay all possibilities and see what they favor. I don't want to alienate anybody that definitely wants to play, so I was thinking we could do this with 12 people and stagger the times for the 3rd set of 4. We're planning on 12, but expecting around 8 since there's always a few that drop out. Do you think this is wise to do, or are there any problems that I cannot foresee?

Paul Frankel used to run Shot Contests. He had a standard set of shot layouts. I'm sure somewhere on his ProfessorQBall sit he's posted the shots.
Thanks for this, its a great idea. I'm thinking there might be a way to incorporate this into each league night to have people play for a pot, and do a separate shot each week or something to learn new things.

Did a bracket tournament years ago, Where people could set their own time to play the match
I played a one pocket league in this format, where we switched locations each week. While I liked it, I missed the community aspect of it and didn't continue after the season was over. With experienced players I can see how this would work, but I think in the beginning the support from everyone being there is important. Thank you for your reply.

Great thoughts guys, you've got my mind swimming with idea's and I really appreciate it! Cheers!
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think if you do the 4-player round robins a third set will stretch the evening out too much and the players are doing more watching than shooting.

One other format:

In the 14.1 leagues around here, whoever shows up on league night is matched up. You show up as often as you can, but it's fine to miss a couple of weeks in a row. It's possible to play as many as three matches in a night if there's someone who wants to play a late match. (There are plenty of tables, so that's not an issue.) There is no structure to the pairings at all other than avoiding two players playing most of their matches against each other. With this format, it's OK for some players to show up early and others late. I think most of the rooms do prizes according to most wins and a season playoff (single elimination).
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll also throw out a drill I used to use that would help new players learn the table and can be made into a competitive game for intrrest's sake. Just have the white and yellow in the table. You score a point by hitting 3 or more cushions with your cue ball and then hitting the other ball. It is like 3c except there is no "first ball". It is easier to score a pt than in 3c so it relieves what is the sometimes dreary aspect of learning 3c, which is many trips to the table without scoring, or making 2 in a row. While learning the paths around the table.
 

Trouble

New member
I've had a rough couple weeks, and was not informed that I had replies; my apologies for a late response.

I think if you do the 4-player round robins a third set will stretch the evening out too much and the players are doing more watching than shooting.
To keep people from waiting, I was hoping that we could have the 3rd set come in at a different time. I've had a few players drop already so I don't think this will be an issue, and we could probably proceed with an 8 player league.
The format for the 14.1 league sounds interesting. I tend to like things a little more structured, not only for my organizational mind, but also for equal opportunity. You know, say there's some folks that can only play one match a night, they will have a hard time competing overall with the ones that can play 3 times a night.
I think I've set my mind on the short-race round robin with groups of 4. I feel like, as far as everything I've been hoping for, it is well balanced: all playing together, competitive, easy to keep track of, not overwhelming, good table time for each player. We will do some "dry" runs in the next few weeks to see if everyone likes the format, and to work out the kinks. If it becomes a success, I will certainly report back here with everything we did so that the next person wanting to do something similar can see what worked for us.

Thank you for your input Bob!

I'll also throw out a drill I used to use that would help new players learn the table and can be made into a competitive game for intrrest's sake.
This is a great idea, I will definitely use this, thanks!
 

zensteve

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have played in a 3C league on and off since the'80s. Carom billiards to a degree is based on your average. The strata increments are .5 - 1.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 as an example. Therefore keeping track of innings played is important. For whatever it's worth here is our league score sheet for your perusal. How many innings you want to race to is up to you. Good luck with your league
score.jpg
.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
In my experience, handicapping by inning average is a really, really bad way to handicap unless all the players try to do their best to score. It is simple to sandbag in that format -- never try for a hard shot and just leave your opponent stuck on the end rail. Your average will drop way down and players you play even with will have to give you a nice spot.

Of course not all players will adopt that strategy and you might not have any in your league, but a couple of those can make for a really unpleasant experience.

If handicap is based purely on win/loss, the only way you can "improve" your handicap is by losing.
 

zensteve

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A. I certainly wouldn't disagree that players can sandbag. But, this nascent league might be less likely to do that.
B. Learning the art of trying to score with the two-way motive of leaving a difficult shot is part of the game.
C. Establishing averages (IMHO) is a better way to confirm one's improvement over time. But if one wants to score wins/loses on a bell curve I would suggest Bob's methodology. Frankly, the idea that you are taking the initiative to highlight our beautiful game is kudos to you.
 

Trouble

New member
Therefore keeping track of innings played is important
I've already started looking into inning counters so that we can easily keep track.

Here's what we have so far: Each table will have a group of 4 playing round robin, which will be rotating weekly. We want to keep the matches short so we will have a set number of innings to play to as well as a handicap; the game ends when one or the other is reached. If a player reaches their handicap, their handicap will go up by a fraction of a point. If a player doesn't reach their handicap it will go down by the same amount, even if they won the game due to the inning cap. If the inning cap is reached, the player that has the highest percentage of their handicap wins.
Ranking will be based on wins, and then average for ties. Initial handicaps will be set by having 1 or 2 dry runs prior to the league starting. This will give us an idea of how this is going to flow, so we can make adjustments and establish the players abilities. I don't think we will have trouble with sandbagging in this league right now, especially with these players. They're all great pool players with a craving for knowledge and the thrill of the game - we're all a friendly bunch too! But I do like the idea of nipping that in the bud.
Thank you for your comments, and thank you Steve for sharing your score sheet!
 

MamboFats

Active member
Recently there has been a couple of European tournaments where they put 3 players at the table.
Swapping the balls from a spotted white/yellow and a solid red to spotted white/yellow/orange, with each player has its color to play with.

So for a club tournament, each available table can have 3 players at a time.
Therefor you can easily accomodate for any number of players, a plural of 3.
You can play sets to 15 points.
And when all tables have finished their match, you can swap players for a new match-up, just until everybody had a game with every other player.
Then you'll have all you need to calculate the average per player, per match, per evening to get a ranking.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In my experience, handicapping by inning average is a really, really bad way to handicap unless all the players try to do their best to score. It is simple to sandbag in that format -- never try for a hard shot and just leave your opponent stuck on the end rail. Your average will drop way down and players you play even with will have to give you a nice spot.

Of course not all players will adopt that strategy and you might not have any in your league, but a couple of those can make for a really unpleasant experience.

If handicap is based purely on win/loss, the only way you can "improve" your handicap is by losing.
Had a long conversation with Dennis Dieckman about handicapping and sandbagging.
You probably know that Dennis was a PGA Member and Golf Instructor. What you might not know is he was in charge of tabulating handicaps for the PGA (likely just his Region) What he told me was (at least in golf) there was very little to no sandbagging.

The Players were more interested in a Low Handicap for bragging rights, than winning a match.

I think the worry of sandbagging in this instance is likely a non-issue. There's no fortune to be made and a trophy is a nothing burger to cheat for.

Hopefully sandbagging doesn't become an issue. If it does? Simply adjust for the next round.

Everyone knows sandbaggers are punks. Have a serious talk or just eliminate them from the next or all future competitions.

This thing seems like a bunch of friends wanting to raise the level of seriousness about their own game(s) rather than just look at that table over there..

Hey Lets Try That Over There.
s
 

Trouble

New member
Recently there has been a couple of European tournaments where they put 3 players at the table.
We would do this when we had 3 players and didn't want to wait for individual games. We might have to do something like this if the amount of players that we have changes. Good thoughts, thanks, Ill keep this in mind.

This thing seems like a bunch of friends wanting to raise the level of seriousness about their own game(s) rather than just look at that table over there..
Haha, you bet! That's what this is. These players are great pool players too, so they're competitive and only want to get better. Winning is only a plus to the process.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Apparently there was Big 3C Tournament in Tucson, Arizona. Actually if city at Indian Casino, entries closed at 60, purse was 4K, friend went and played was fun. Entry was $300.00. Full field, and friend had fun.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Well 3-c is apparently popular, 60 player is great turnout.

My friend said it was handicapped, string player still finished in top tier.
 
Top