3-foul & sportsmanship?

[Travis Bickle]

I don't see how it's sharking to go for a 3-foul win, especially when you're playing catch-up or just feeling a little off your game.

It's like in basketball, when the other team's fast-breaking you to death, you call a timeout, then slow down the game and get back in a good rhythm. You might take a couple of timeouts to ice a kicker in football. You'd bring in a different-style pitcher in baseball, maybe a junk-baller or a harder thrower. In tennis you might throw in some drop shots and moon balls ... when things are going bad, you've got to look for a way to change the complexion of the game, buy time to get yourself going and, within the rules of the game and fair sportsmanship, do something to throw your opponent off his rhythm.

I think that's just being competitive, not sharking ... of course, you shouldn't be too surprised if your opponent doesn't like it very much if you end up turning the tables and winning.

 

[PlynSets]

"At first V was just playing safe to get back in the game, but once he saw what a pr*ck D was being, he intentionally tried to 3 foul him again and again ."

Your boyfriend saw that three fouling spun up somebody so he went to great efforts to do it repeatedly instead of running out, twisting his opponent as tightly as he could. Then he thought his opponent should shake his hand? If I had just done that to somebody I wouldn't get within ten feet of them.

Nothing illegal about it but it was sharking and your boyfriend was foolish if he thought he could keep somebody spun up for three or four games and then them be polite immediately afterwards. You can't win by playing on somebody's emotions and then expect them not to be emotional.

It isn't what I consider sporting to win by playing on somebody else's emotions instead of skill so I would say that there were two people in the match that showed less than impressive sportsmanship.

Hu

How do you figure that?

Being able to pick up on a persons emotions, as well as use "strategy" in the game to play upon this is part of the skill set of any "real" player. There's more to the game then just balls and a stick? It's not all about run outs as well? (Am I wrong here?) That's the psycological part of the game that makes it so great!

How can you say playing by the rules, and finding a way to win is unsportsmanlike?

If I'm playing a player that is stronger then me heads up, your damn straight I'm going to hook em a few times to get em spun up and outta stroke. Then the next plan is to put a rack or two on em and hopefully put some small amount of fear in them as well as frustration..

DJ

 

[woody_968]

"At first V was just playing safe to get back in the game, but once he saw what a pr*ck D was being, he intentionally tried to 3 foul him again and again ."

Your boyfriend saw that three fouling spun up somebody so he went to great efforts to do it repeatedly instead of running out, twisting his opponent as tightly as he could. Then he thought his opponent should shake his hand? If I had just done that to somebody I wouldn't get within ten feet of them.

Nothing illegal about it but it was sharking and your boyfriend was foolish if he thought he could keep somebody spun up for three or four games and then them be polite immediately afterwards. You can't win by playing on somebody's emotions and then expect them not to be emotional.

It isn't what I consider sporting to win by playing on somebody else's emotions instead of skill so I would say that there were two people in the match that showed less than impressive sportsmanship.

Hu

I see your point, and had to think about it for a while. If V was running out and saw that it was playing on V's emotions should he have stopped running out?

 

[StormHotRod300]

In all the times i have played in $ tournaments i think i've seen the 3 foul rule enforced once.

I have played a couple matches where, the balls get cluster'd or whatever, and either me or the other guys gets BIH and plays safe once or twice in a row to open up the table, so we can run out the table.

Now the one time i did see the 3 foul rule enforced it was kinda a chicken shit move on the part of the guy. It was a small money tournament for C/D players and this guy who had just beaten me in a match and a couple other guys, was playing a girl who had been shooting for maybe 3 months.

Well he was doing a similar tactic to this girl. Getting BIH and just playing safe 3times in a row so he could win the match easier.

Personally i think thats bad sportsmanship expecially considering he was a far superior player than the girl.

But on the flip side, this girls' father was in the tournament too, and ended up doing the same thing to this guy in return lol. So i guess he got a taste of his own medicine lol.

Now if i am playing a match and dont like the layout of the table, i will play safe all day long untill i like the layout and know i can run out. Which i know its drives some players crazy and gets them all pissy, which makes me laugh so i end up play safe again

dave

 

[StormHotRod300]

I will also say, If i know i am playing a person in a tournament whos skill level is far below mine, i wont play safe. I mean i do have a heart, and want to give the person atleast a chance to win a game or two.

That way the person actually feels like they accomplished something. And dont just walk away thinking, man i didnt even get a decent chance at any shot, cuz all he did was play lockup safes and then run out.

dave

 

[Masayoshi]

"At first V was just playing safe to get back in the game, but once he saw what a pr*ck D was being, he intentionally tried to 3 foul him again and again ."

Your boyfriend saw that three fouling spun up somebody so he went to great efforts to do it repeatedly instead of running out, twisting his opponent as tightly as he could. Then he thought his opponent should shake his hand? If I had just done that to somebody I wouldn't get within ten feet of them.

Nothing illegal about it but it was sharking and your boyfriend was foolish if he thought he could keep somebody spun up for three or four games and then them be polite immediately afterwards. You can't win by playing on somebody's emotions and then expect them not to be emotional.

It isn't what I consider sporting to win by playing on somebody else's emotions instead of skill so I would say that there were two people in the match that showed less than impressive sportsmanship.

Hu

i would say he was playing on his opponent's crappy kicking skills rather than emotions. its pretty difficult to 3 foul a decent player once, let alone 3 consecutive times.

 

[Tokyo-dave]

For me personally, nothing pisses me off more, takes me out of my game more, and NOTHING is more embarrasing than losing a set to the three foul rule. That's why I love to win by getting my opponent to foul out. One of the most effective ways I can think of to play with the other guys mentality.
dave

 

[Flex]

In all the times i have played in $ tournaments i think i've seen the 3 foul rule enforced once.

I play in $ tounaments quite frequently and see 3 foul rules enforced continually. Happens a lot actually. When someone manages to 3 foul me, I just rack the balls and go at 'em even harder. By the way, playing top players helps learn how to kick and jump. If you can't do either of these reasonably well, they'll just get BIH and run out on you. Kicking is extremely important, and jumping is right up there with kicking. Making your opponent feel he has almost no chance of 3 fouling you is part of the game. I welcome the challenge.

Flex

 

[DelaWho???]

Discover Your Opponents Weakness and Exploit it

I'm not the best shooter out there.....I Know this.....and when I encounter someone who clearly has more talent than me it just makes me play smarter......employ strategy look for openings or weaknesses and exploit them.....Believe me it's nothing personal...I probably only know the players I shoot by the name on the board.....so how can it be personal....even if you're my best friend it doesn't matter......How am I respecting you if I don't bring my best to the table? I'll play my game and you yours...at the end of it if you beat me I can respect that because I gave you my best......
What I find distasteful is being patronized by someone who is clearly better and is just playing around with me...If you can beat me do it.....don't lay off and give me a shot just sit me down and be done with it.....

McCue Banger McCue

 

[DelaWho???]

Clarify the Three Foul Rule

Can someone please clarify if the rule is 3 consecutive shot fouls or 3 fouls during the course of the game?
Thanks

McCue Banger McCue

 

[ShootingArts]

No, quite a difference

I see your point, and had to think about it for a while. If V was running out and saw that it was playing on V's emotions should he have stopped running out?

The three foul wins are very frustrating for the person losing. Still, it is on the books and valid to use. However, I am doubtful that any half decent player can be three fouled three times in a row in three games without being too spun up to see. My point was and is that it is foolish to spin someone up to that point and then expect a handshake and "good game" afterwards.

Also when a person goes out of their way to win by the three foul rule over and over because they saw how badly it upset the other person the first time I have to maintain that this is sharking. Stop and consider what percentage of games are won by running out and what percentage are won by the three foul rule? How many of us have ever seen three games in a row won by the three foul rule? I haven't and I have been around pool for more decades than I like to think about.

Somewhere there is a line between normal play and sharking. I guess we all have to decide for ourselves where that line is at . . . for ourselves. Anything within the rules is a valid win. Personally, I just wouldn't feel real good about that one if I had been the winner.

Hu

 

[Flex]

The three foul wins are very frustrating for the person losing. Still, it is on the books and valid to use. However, I am doubtful that any half decent player can be three fouled three times in a row in three games without being too spun up to see. My point was and is that it is foolish to spin someone up to that point and then expect a handshake and "good game" afterwards.

Also when a person goes out of their way to win by the three foul rule over and over because they saw how badly it upset the other person the first time I have to maintain that this is sharking. Stop and consider what percentage of games are won by running out and what percentage are won by the three foul rule? How many of us have ever seen three games in a row won by the three foul rule? I haven't and I have been around pool for more decades than I like to think about.

Somewhere there is a line between normal play and sharking. I guess we all have to decide for ourselves where that line is at . . . for ourselves. Anything within the rules is a valid win. Personally, I just wouldn't feel real good about that one if I had been the winner.

Hu

As Larry Schwartz wrote in his "8-Ball Handbook for Winners," there's nothing quite so frustrating as losing by being 3 fouled. He also said that winning on the pool table isn't going to make you popular, especially with those you've beaten, and especially if you've managed to 3 foul them. He's right about that.

If anything, I'd say that Vic did D a favor by showing him, in a match, that D's kicking and jumping and getting unhooked game is seriously deficient. That's an area where his game could probably use a good tuning up.

Flex

 

[renard]

http://www.azbilliards.com/thebarber/barber2.cfm

Read this. It sums up what most AZers are already saying.

V at first needed something to turn the match around. What he was doing wasn't working at the given time. Thru his successful safeties he found the Achilles heel of his opponent. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win with any means within the rules at your disposal.

 

[Flex]

Great link. Thanks for posting it.

 

[sashax415]

The three foul wins are very frustrating for the person losing. Still, it is on the books and valid to use. However, I am doubtful that any half decent player can be three fouled three times in a row in three games without being too spun up to see. My point was and is that it is foolish to spin someone up to that point and then expect a handshake and "good game" afterwards.

Also when a person goes out of their way to win by the three foul rule over and over because they saw how badly it upset the other person the first time I have to maintain that this is sharking. Stop and consider what percentage of games are won by running out and what percentage are won by the three foul rule? How many of us have ever seen three games in a row won by the three foul rule? I haven't and I have been around pool for more decades than I like to think about.

Somewhere there is a line between normal play and sharking. I guess we all have to decide for ourselves where that line is at . . . for ourselves. Anything within the rules is a valid win. Personally, I just wouldn't feel real good about that one if I had been the winner.

Hu

Hu,

I have to say that I cannot agree with you on this. Let me point out some key factors

1) D was up 4-1 : Obviously V wasnt in stroke and had to find alternative means to get back in the game... in no way was he trying to "shark"

2) Immediately after the the first 3foul, D was talking all kinds of SH*T to V...this to me is what sharking is.

3) Throughout the match D was talking sh*t about V to his face and to everyone around him. Loud and clear for the world to hear.

4) As irony would have it, the spreads were always clustered up and there just weren't run-out opportunities

5) In a typical game, yes, V would have probably taken a couple of those BIHs to break up some clusters and then attempt the run, but if D is sitting there disrespecting him and the match by all his b*tching, then why bother?

6) Yes it is rare that we see a player 3-foul a person 3 times in a row... I think we can all agree that to foul out a good player is hard... 3 times? i think theres some merit in that. Those around us seemed to think so

SO I have to strongly disagree with you that V was "sharking" and being "unsportsmanlike". If anyone was to be denied a handshake, it should have been D, considering he spent the whole match talking all that crap and leaving the table. THAT to me is what I consider sharking.

I can see your point that there is a line between normal play and sharking and D crossed that line long before V even got close to it, if ever he did.

Thanks for everyones thoughts... I never thought I'd cause such a stir

 

[ShootingArts]

nuth'n wrong with a little stir!

Always entertaining to have a little stir.

Obviously I wasn't there and can't say what D was doing or who was doing what first. My comment that there was a lack of sportsmanship on both sides seems even more valid reading your last post though. If you back off and look at the match objectively, wouldn't it be a true statement that D showed his butt and V met him halfway when he did? No surprise that everything wasn't goodness and light after the game.

Sounds like they provided great entertainment regardless. I did myself at a major event several years ago. A fellow competitor was also a builder of equipment. I had caught him in several lies concerning my order and was waiting on a several hundred dollar refund which he had been supposed to mail weeks before. He set up shop fifty feet from me! I went over to him and addressed the problem and loudly proclaimed him to be a lying SOB when he told me yet another blatant lie. Folks were laughing about it all weekend. "Jim, you know what you are? You are a lying SOB!" I had said my piece and it didn't bother me. I found it pretty funny myself and I feel sure that many people privately acknowledged the merit of my statement.

Hu

Hu,

I have to say that I cannot agree with you on this. Let me point out some key factors

1) D was up 4-1 : Obviously V wasnt in stroke and had to find alternative means to get back in the game... in no way was he trying to "shark"

2) Immediately after the the first 3foul, D was talking all kinds of SH*T to V...this to me is what sharking is.

3) Throughout the match D was talking sh*t about V to his face and to everyone around him. Loud and clear for the world to hear.

4) As irony would have it, the spreads were always clustered up and there just weren't run-out opportunities

5) In a typical game, yes, V would have probably taken a couple of those BIHs to break up some clusters and then attempt the run, but if D is sitting there disrespecting him and the match by all his b*tching, then why bother?

6) Yes it is rare that we see a player 3-foul a person 3 times in a row... I think we can all agree that to foul out a good player is hard... 3 times? i think theres some merit in that. Those around us seemed to think so

SO I have to strongly disagree with you that V was "sharking" and being "unsportsmanlike". If anyone was to be denied a handshake, it should have been D, considering he spent the whole match talking all that crap and leaving the table. THAT to me is what I consider sharking.

I can see your point that there is a line between normal play and sharking and D crossed that line long before V even got close to it, if ever he did.

Thanks for everyones thoughts... I never thought I'd cause such a stir

 

[enzo]

The three foul wins are very frustrating for the person losing. Still, it is on the books and valid to use. However, I am doubtful that any half decent player can be three fouled three times in a row in three games without being too spun up to see. My point was and is that it is foolish to spin someone up to that point and then expect a handshake and "good game" afterwards.

Also when a person goes out of their way to win by the three foul rule over and over because they saw how badly it upset the other person the first time I have to maintain that this is sharking. Stop and consider what percentage of games are won by running out and what percentage are won by the three foul rule? How many of us have ever seen three games in a row won by the three foul rule? I haven't and I have been around pool for more decades than I like to think about.

Somewhere there is a line between normal play and sharking. I guess we all have to decide for ourselves where that line is at . . . for ourselves. Anything within the rules is a valid win. Personally, I just wouldn't feel real good about that one if I had been the winner.

Hu

there's absolutely nothing wrong with 3 fouling somebody as many times as you want. baseball hitters probably didn't like it when pitches started throwing elusive split finger pitches, but that doesn't mean they should stop throwing them. there's really nothing to argue here, if you're getting three fouled a lot, you probably need to learn how to kick better, but first you probably need to start hitting the cueball more accurately. you're probably missing many kicks because you can't judge the angles cus you hit the cueball in an unintended spot everytime. there's no way to learn to "see" the angles if that's the case.

edit: the only thing that kinda rubs me the wrong way about the 3 foul rule is that you can hit a perfect break, get kicked in the pocket, now the guy has ball in hand and many times the 1 lays in a spot that makes it very easy to give the guy an impossible kick. so now you're on 2, and mind you you havent REALLY made a mistake yet. now, he hooks you, gived you a 50-50 kick, you miss it and lose the game??? i dont know, i think maybe the foul on the break shouldn't count as one of the three fouls, all other fouls should, that would be fairer.

 

[enzo]

I have a video of Tony Ellin 3-fouling Efren Reyes. Tony laid down some great safes in a really tied up rack, and in the last shot Efren tried this crazy masse and missed the ball by a centimeter.

i have that tape. i always have loved the way tony played efren. he just plays pool and doesn't play like he's playing a god like most players. and guess what, tony had a great record against reyes, at least thats what the commentators said at the time of that match.

 

[Scottster]

"At first V was just playing safe to get back in the game, but once he saw what a pr*ck D was being, he intentionally tried to 3 foul him again and again ."

Your boyfriend saw that three fouling spun up somebody so he went to great efforts to do it repeatedly instead of running out, twisting his opponent as tightly as he could. Then he thought his opponent should shake his hand? If I had just done that to somebody I wouldn't get within ten feet of them.

Nothing illegal about it but it was sharking and your boyfriend was foolish if he thought he could keep somebody spun up for three or four games and then them be polite immediately afterwards. You can't win by playing on somebody's emotions and then expect them not to be emotional.

It isn't what I consider sporting to win by playing on somebody else's emotions instead of skill so I would say that there were two people in the match that showed less than impressive sportsmanship.

Hu

The Mental aspect of Pool is a SKill. If you cant keep your Composure, and your opponent finds out how to push your buttons, it is the same as your opponent finding out what shots you are week at.
Master the 3 "C's"

 

[Scottster]

Can someone please clarify if the rule is 3 consecutive shot fouls or 3 fouls during the course of the game?
Thanks

McCue Banger McCue

Three Consecutive Fouls= Loss