3-Rail Kick Shot - Table Setup Question

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A pool hall in my area has fairly new GC IV's with 860 on them, and 3-rail kicks do not work on those tables like they do on other tables I play on. My experience with the standard corner-to-corner 3-railer is that you should aim at the second diamond with running english, like this:

CueTable Help



Every table I recall playing on has been pretty close to this; maybe not exact, but close. I have a GC II in my house, and the shot works fine on that table. If you aim at the second diamond on these GC IV's, however, you will fall well short (about point A) of the target pocket. You have to aim WAY long to get a 3-railer anywhere near the corner pocket, but I did find that by using a drag-draw stroke with a TON of running english I could aim at the second diamond and stretch it out enough to get close to the corner.

My question is, what could be wrong/different about these tables (they are apparently all like that) that would make them play this way? Like I said, they have 860 on them, and the only thing that's a little out of the ordinary (at least for the tables in my area) is that the felt is stretched extremely tight, and there have been some questions raised about the method that was used to stretch the felt, which, as I understand it, was by use of a pair of modified pliers. Other than that they seem pretty normal, no major rolloffs, etc. The rails seem to be pretty lively, but not outside the realm of what I consider normal. Is this most likely a setup issue, or something that happened, or didn't happen, at the factory?

Those of you who play in my area will know the place I'm talking about, but I'd rather not mention any names. I'm not trying to bash anyone; I'm just curious about the problem because I am considering having my table re-covered by the table mechanic in question, but I am concerned about the whole felt-stretching thing. I just don't see how it is possible to stretch the felt in a consistent manner using that method, and at least one other person has voiced the same concern.

Thanks for your help,

Aaron
 
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This shot can vary from table to table. I would try aiming through the first diamond right after the pocket. Now I did not read all of your post, but are you shooting it with running english? Use about 3/4 tip and a little above center, and it should fall right into the pocket. Of course speed can be a factor, if you shoot it like that with hard enough to let it fall into the pocket, but not too much speed, it should work every time. I too have Simonis 860 and this is how I play the shot on my table.

Tjlmbklr
 
New cloth will throw off the rails because of the slide, causing the rails to play short. This is because the topspin has less effect.
 
mnShooter said:
New cloth will throw off the rails because of the slide, causing the rails to play short. This is because the topspin has less effect.

The felt is almost 1 year old, and has received fairly heavy play. The issue was discovered when the felt was new, and has persisted to this point with only minor variance.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Dead rails cause tables to play short IIRC.

I would think that dead rails would actually cause this shot to play long since it would stretch out the angle off of the first rail (less bounce, same spin). Regardless, these rails are plenty lively, maybe too lively. Unfortunately, it's not one of those things that's immediately obvious (at least not to anyone I've talked to yet), like dead rails or a rail that's crooked.

One theory I heard is that the rail bolts may be over-tightened, under-tightened, or a mixture of both, and that this may be causing the problem. I don't know enough about that to even know if it's a possibility. The fact that all of the tables in this place play pretty much the same leads me to believe that whatever is wrong is consistently wrong.
 
mnShooter said:
New cloth will throw off the rails because of the slide, causing the rails to play short. This is because the topspin has less effect.

In my experience, new cloth makes the table play long...up to 2 diamonds longer!! I have aimed at the tit before the pocket to make it. :eek: If you need to 3 rail kick for a ball on the long rail, you can just about forget it.

Also, same with dead rails, they have made the ball come off at all kinds of goofy angles.
 
it is more likely that the rails are not perfectly square. Sometimes they look perfectly aligned to the eye but they are off just enough to throw that three railer off.
 
Every table plays different based on all the factors that come into play from room to room, cloth to cloth, Air Conditioning on or off, and so forth. When going to a new room I generally shoot that 3 rail kick, cross corner banks the length of the table and side pocket banks so that I can see how the table plays. So don't get into the habit of thinking that everyshot is going to work just like in the book, sometimes adjustments have to be made based on conditions that day.

Black Cat :cool:
 
I would tend to agree with Nineball Nut and Black Cat. All tables are a little different, and playing conditions can wreak havoc on consistency...even from day to day on the same table. DO check the rail bolts, to see that they are somewhat tight. They don't have to be CRANKED down, but they should be more than just 'finger tight' too! I play on all sizes, all brands, and all conditions, and have to adapt the standard 3-rail kicks to each table. I will say that usually on a GCIV, the natural aiming spot, with running english is halfway between the 2nd and 3rd diamonds, as opposed to right at the 2nd diamond. On a Diamond table you aim at the first diamond above the side pocket, as tjlmbklr described. On a 7' bar table, you aim at the exact same place. Older GC crowns will conform to the middle diamond, as you described. Olhausens seem to play at near the middle diamond.

The key, is that you must be able to adapt to each table. I've also played on tables like Linda described, where you have to almost aim at the corner pocket tit to get the 3-rail kick. That is maddening, and does make kicking on a table like that much more difficult. Sometimes you have to kick with reverse english to make up for crazy angles.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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Black Cat 5791 said:
Every table plays different based on all the factors that come into play from room to room, cloth to cloth, Air Conditioning on or off, and so forth. When going to a new room I generally shoot that 3 rail kick, cross corner banks the length of the table and side pocket banks so that I can see how the table plays. So don't get into the habit of thinking that everyshot is going to work just like in the book, sometimes adjustments have to be made based on conditions that day.

Without a doubt. I've played on many, many different tables of varying sizes, varying cloths, and varying levels of maintenance, and am well aware of the inconsistencies you speak of, which is why I threw in the disclaimer about "getting close" in my initial post. I don't recall ever having to make such a large correction (more than 1 diamond) to get this shot to go, though. On a bar box in somebody's barn (been there) I could understand, but a seemingly well-maintained GC IV in a climate-controlled pool hall? Seems odd to me, as it does to the rest of the better players in the area.
 
Have you tried it from each of the corner pockets? If it's a geometry problem it should play differently from some of them. But since you've indicated that all of the tables play like this, I guess this is unlikely.

You also indicated that the cushions are very lively, perhaps too much so, and that this should cause them to play short. I think this is the explanation. I don't know about overly tight bolts causing this.

Jim
 
Scott Lee said:
DO check the rail bolts, to see that they are somewhat tight. They don't have to be CRANKED down, but they should be more than just 'finger tight' too!

I will have to inquire about this. Do you know if there is a specific torque specification on these bolts? Seems like there ought to be.

Scott Lee said:
The key, is that you must be able to adapt to each table. I've also played on tables like Linda described, where you have to almost aim at the corner pocket tit to get the 3-rail kick. That is maddening, and does make kicking on a table like that much more difficult. Sometimes you have to kick with reverse english to make up for crazy angles.

I'm with you, and that's basically what I tell the players that have complained to me about it; it's the same for everybody, etc. I don't have a problem adjusting to it, but it is a pretty radical adjustment that I'm not sure is necessary. I've just never had to make this big of an adjustment on a GC (I, II, III, or IV), and I've logged thousands of hours on them combined. It's something that all of the better players notice when they play at this place, and I've heard more than one of them make comments about how the tables are "totally f'ed up". I'm afraid it may eventually have an adverse effect on tournament attendance, etc.
 
Jal said:
Have you tried it from each of the corner pockets? If it's a geometry problem it should play differently from some of them. But since you've indicated that all of the tables play like this, I guess this is unlikely.

You also indicated that the cushions are very lively, perhaps too much so, and that this should cause them to play short. I think this is the explanation. I don't know about overly tight bolts causing this.

Jim

Yes, not only different pockets, but different tables.

I really do wonder about the liveliness of the cushions, but I'm not sure how to check it. I also don't know what might cause cushions to be too lively. Maybe not at the right height?
 
Aaron_S said:
I would think that dead rails would actually cause this shot to play long since it would stretch out the angle off of the first rail (less bounce, same spin). Regardless, these rails are plenty lively, maybe too lively. Unfortunately, it's not one of those things that's immediately obvious (at least not to anyone I've talked to yet), like dead rails or a rail that's crooked.

One theory I heard is that the rail bolts may be over-tightened, under-tightened, or a mixture of both, and that this may be causing the problem. I don't know enough about that to even know if it's a possibility. The fact that all of the tables in this place play pretty much the same leads me to believe that whatever is wrong is consistently wrong.

I just remember someone telling me that dead rails cause a table to play short. I play on tables that have extremely live rails, it was very hard to adjust to, because they played very long.

I figured that since rubber weakens over time, a dead rail would mean it's softer. I'm not sure, it's just a guess.
 
Yeah, I played a guy banks on one of these tables not too long ago and it took forever for me to adjust to how short the rails play. It was probably 45 minutes to make two balls...lol. That being said, I'm not a great banker and we were playing full rack banks so there was a lot of clutter, but still, I missed some easy, very makeable, banks because it was so short.
 
Rails

cuetechasaurus said:
I just remember someone telling me that dead rails cause a table to play short. I play on tables that have extremely live rails, it was very hard to adjust to, because they played very long.

I figured that since rubber weakens over time, a dead rail would mean it's softer. I'm not sure, it's just a guess.

1) Normal shot for a 3 railer is running english hitting 1" above the middle
diamond.
2) New rails (depending on rubber grade) play longer normally because new rails are like new shocks in a car. They don't compress as far and
they propel harder, and accent the english more. If they are too lively, it is probably because they are 1/8" to 1/4" too low. (Watch out for back banks with new cloth and new rails, it will grab).
3) Old rails compress further (softer) and propel slower than new rails, therefore deadening the english and the angle which shortens up the shot.

Simonis does funny things to banking or kicking.
 
Aaron_S said:
Yes, not only different pockets, but different tables.

I really do wonder about the liveliness of the cushions, but I'm not sure how to check it. I also don't know what might cause cushions to be too lively. Maybe not at the right height?
You're getting diametrically opposite opinions as to whether dead cushions make it bank shorter or longer. I think the conventional wisdom is that they make it bank longer, and that livelier cushions shorten it up. I believe there is good reason for this.

Consider a kick which comes off of a normal cushion as a mirror reflection (angle out equals angle in). The cueball's speed in the perpendicular direction will be brought to zero and then reversed to about 0.8 (or maybe 0.7) of its original speed. So its total change of speed in this direction will be 1.8. In the parallel direction, its speed will drop from 1.0 to 0.8 from friction, for a change of 0.2. It will have to have the same fraction of its original speed in both directions in order for it to rebound in mirror-like fashion.

Now try the same thing on a very dead cushion. There will be a major change in the perpendicular direction; let's say it comes off the cushion at only 0.2 of its original speed. But in the parallel direction it will have nearly the same speed since the friction force (technically the friction impulse which is force X time) depends on and is derived from the force acting in the perpendicular direction. Since that perpendicular force (impulse) has been greatly reduced, so will the amount slowing due to friction. (Actually, for at least stun type shots into the cushion, the amount of slowing is pretty much independent of the amount of friction because the ball ends up rolling across it.)

Well, that's a long-winded way of saying that the speed in the perpendicular direction is much more affected, so that the ball should bank longer. But the whole thing is pretty complicated and I wouldn't be too shocked if someone came up with a situation where a deader cushion banked shorter. Perhaps Cutechasaurus or Snapshot could explain how this might happen? I don't see it, but I'm far from expert.

I do think, as Snapshot mentioned, that cushion height will affect its apparent liveliness. For one thing, with a lower cushion bed friction is reduced, which tends to act in the parallel direction. So a lower one should be livelier. You may want to check that the nose of your cushions is between 1-13/32" and about 1-15/32". Maybe over torqued bolts can affect this in a significant way by compressing the cloth too much. The balls should have more of a tendency to crawl up the rail if this is the case.

Jim
 
This shot has been referred to as "The grand-daddy of all diamond systems". I know it as the "System of 5". A good description of this system can be seen right here at AZ : http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=9115

This is part 1 of DeadAim's Kicking Academy, a VERY WORTHWHILE READ !

The "normal" aim is at the third diamond, not the second. The system is to determin the contact point on the third rail, which, to extend the path to the corner pocket needs to hit the second diamond. The starting spot in the diagrammed shot is "5", and you want to end up at "2" on the third rail, so aim at the "3"rd diamond. 5=3+2. This is the way I've read it in DeadAims post, in Fels book, and many others. DeadAim provides a correction in a latter post that makes the system a little more precise when the starting spot moves down (up?) the long rail, something I have not seen in other descriptions.

I use this shot as a test on all tables I play on. Rarely is the correct aim for this three rail shot directly at that third diamond. I have found that it is more common to aim at about midway between the 2nd and 3rd diamonds, with a little (yes, only a little) running english as Scot points out. I have seen the occasional table that plays a little below the 2nd diamond, but not too often. Try the shot starting at each of the foot-rail corners to see if the table is 'square' to itself, often these two shots play a bit differently.

Dave
 
Lets see if this gets through on the Wei table. Medium stroke,and you can make this shot all day long.START(
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