Jedi V Man said:
Yes, Efren is a god, but he'll never hit better than Babe Ruth.
526 High Run Straight Pool
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Yes, Efren is a god, but he'll never hit better than Babe Ruth.
I don't think that qualifies exactly as an agnostic statement.catscradle said:Yes, Efren is a god, but he'll never hit better than Babe Ruth.
Though, I'd like to see Babe Ruth face off against a billy wagner fastball or a clemen's splitfinger. The Bambino would be OWNED by today's pitchers.
Mosconi has also ran over 300 Balls in exhibition on a 5X10 many many times.....
Trust me, it wasn't because of the size of the damn table.
Ever watch some old Mosconi videos?
He left such good position that on his 526 ball run he NEVER even shot a combination, and yes, I have his Autobiography sitting right in front of me.
He, at 14:1 was the best to ever play the game. He never left himself a shot more than a few feet long, so the length of the table meant nothing to him.
If you shoot a shoot straight enough to go in the pocket of a 8' table, moving the pocket another 6" or even 1" away means nothing. He never rattled balls, he fired them in center cut and rarely ever missed, unless it was on purpous.
All the hypothetical crap anyone can spew will never change the fact he was the world hampion of billiards untill he retired, and in 14:1, he was he best their ever was, and no one alive playing that game is even close to as good as he was 60 years ago....
Back to your speculations....
And, I find 14:1 easier on my 9' table than on an 8' because I have much more room to move the balls around. I am sure most pros would agree with that. If jumping from an 8' to a 9' doesn't bother me, why would it bug a pro......
Trust me, it wasn't because of the size of the damn table.
Ever watch some old Mosconi videos?
He left such good position that on his 526 ball run he NEVER even shot a combination, and yes, I have his Autobiography sitting right in front of me.
He, at 14:1 was the best to ever play the game. He never left himself a shot more than a few feet long, so the length of the table meant nothing to him.
If you shoot a shoot straight enough to go in the pocket of a 8' table, moving the pocket another 6" or even 1" away means nothing. He never rattled balls, he fired them in center cut and rarely ever missed, unless it was on purpous.
All the hypothetical crap anyone can spew will never change the fact he was the world hampion of billiards untill he retired, and in 14:1, he was he best their ever was, and no one alive playing that game is even close to as good as he was 60 years ago....
Back to your speculations....
And, I find 14:1 easier on my 9' table than on an 8' because I have much more room to move the balls around. I am sure most pros would agree with that. If jumping from an 8' to a 9' doesn't bother me, why would it bug a pro......
It's kind of amazing how little respect Mosconi gets these days. He seems mostly to be identified with running 526 balls rather than winning a large majority of world championships in his era. Frequently the 526 ball run is mentioned only to say someone else's run was longer (Eufemia, Cranfield), or harder (Engert on a 9 foot table), or would be longer if he only tried (Efren).
First of all, high runs aren't what's important, it's who wins. Mosconi seldom lost the world tournament after 1940 and, I believe, when he did lose he always won it back in a challenge match. No one who played against him in these tournaments would deny that he was the best. I remember Irving Crane's statement - "I can do everything on a pool table that he can, so why can't I beat him?" He was the dominant player of his era, and I think he deserves better than he gets on this board.
Sorry for the rant.
First of all, high runs aren't what's important, it's who wins. Mosconi seldom lost the world tournament after 1940 and, I believe, when he did lose he always won it back in a challenge match. No one who played against him in these tournaments would deny that he was the best. I remember Irving Crane's statement - "I can do everything on a pool table that he can, so why can't I beat him?" He was the dominant player of his era, and I think he deserves better than he gets on this board.
Sorry for the rant.
jsp said:I don't think that qualifies exactly as an agnostic statement.
There may not be a god, but there is Efren.
Though, I'd like to see Babe Ruth face off against a billy wagner fastball or a clemen's splitfinger. The Bambino would be OWNED by today's pitchers.
Blasphemy, you'll go directly to right field for that remark. Don't speak badly of Ted Williams or Bill Russell too or I may have to hunt you down, you're in Lowell right.
Tommy Joe said:
I fully agree with you. I'll go one step further; 9-ball really isn't the game by which we should measure a champion. I've heard too many good players say it really is sort of a BS game with which to decide who is best. I am not saying it does not take talent and ability; it certainly does. But with 9-ball, who wins (at a pro vs. pro level since we're talking about champions) is totally up for grabs at any point. You know, who got more rest the night before, or something like that.
Just look at all the different players that have won various 9-ball titles. Every year, it's a new guy. These guys are so good, with only 9 balls or less on the table, give them a shot, and they'll run out. So largely, the outcomes have a lot to do with the luck of the breaks and such, not totally, but largely. And we know the reason why the pros play 9-ball; it was because TV wouldn't accept games that took to long, like straight pool and one pocket, because people got bored.
Like you, I believe straight pool is a better indicator of ability than 9-ball, requires more skill AND knowledge, and produces a more definitive champion, as you say. Look how many titles Mosconi won. This has nothing to do with Efren vs. Mosconi now, BTW; I stated my opinion on that already. But for making my point about straight pool, certainly Mosconi's titles in 14.1 back up your point about producing a more definitive champion. It's too bad 14.1 went by the wayside with the pros, but I can understand that only the hardcore pool fans will watch. But it's nice to see that the UPA provided us the World 14.1 Championship, and that Bob puts on the Derby City challenge.
Tommy Joe said:
Yes, I have to admit, I'm not sure about Mosconi in other games, I just thought I'd read something about him being a decent 9-ball player. I did not know about the snooker though; thanks for the info.
Well, yes, but... I think his autobiography also says that the run was on a 4.5x9 while everybody else, including the affadivit on the Smithsonian web site, says it was a 4x8. BTW, George Rood who bought the pool hall the run was in a few months after the run said that it was a fairly tight 4x8. He also says that several people claim to own that table now.Jedi V Man said:
Bob Jewett said:
Like splinters of the "true cross", put them all together and you can build a large pool room. If you gather all the tables he made that run on you can equip that large pool room.
Secaucus Fats
Banned
Hi run records are great but the total number of championships won is the best measure of a champion. 'Nuff said.
BTW for those who may not have ever seen the affidavit of Mosconi's 526 ball run here it is:
BTW for those who may not have ever seen the affidavit of Mosconi's 526 ball run here it is:
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This argument again, huh? I agree that Mosconi for some reason doesn't get the respect he deserves. Maybe it's because Accu-Stats doesn't have 50 tapes of him in his prime running 100's. All they have is a tape of him post stroke and fresh out of the hospital late in his life. I would also agree that measuring him by this mythical number doesn't really do him justice. Yes, many players have probably run more balls in practice (including Mosconi). The difference is that his run is verified. It's not a story that someone's cousin told to their friend that they heard about on the internet. It's confirmed. But to me, his greatness is really demonstrated by his championships. NO ONE has dominated like Mosconi, Efren included.
Jedi V Man said:
You should take some reading comprehension courses. I didn't say he would instantly be better. Obviously I was implying that if Efren were to shift his focus on 14.1, he would practice the game, and within a few months he would be able to break the record. Thomas Engert almost did it on a 9 foot table with much tighter pockets. Efren is a better pool player than Engert. It's logic. Sorry to get your panties in a bunch.
So the nod goes to Alfredo de Oro?Secaucus Fats said:
Rich93 said:
I agree. I saw Mosconi put on an exhibition in the early 70s and was impressed. He dominated his era, and his era went on for quite a while. I also believe it's a waste to argue the merit of one generation against another, although obviously some people can talk about it all day long. Not me. No way am I going to not respect Mosconi.
Trying to be fair though, I will say the pockets are definitely tighter today. They're even tighter than they were in the 60s and 70s. In some ways that seems to have changed the game. I notice players nowadays don't try to get close position, and I believe that's because the pockets are so tight that they are sometimes forced to make a few longer shots until they manage somehow to right the position. But Mosconi didn't build the tables, he just played on them, and I'm sure he would have done just as well on today's tables, especially if he had played on them his whole life.
As for the size of the tables, I don't know. I've played on a few 4 by 8s and thought they were easier. There were even a few 5 by 10s left back in the early 70s. I guess it's what you're used to. Mosconi had his record run on a 4 by 8 during an exhibition, but in his day (even more before), they played the tournaments on 5 by 10s. Some people say the 5 by 10s were easier because the balls spread more, but they didn't look easy to me. You are correct, it seems Mosconi doesn't get much respect nowadays. Maybe that's because they didn't see Mosconi's face on tv every week. Let's be honest, by today's standards if you don't see something on tv it's like it never happened. You can come in from outside and people will believe the weatherman before they believe you.
One last thing, as I tend to ramble. I often wonder why the game of pool is not more popular as a tv sport. I have several theories. First, when the game is played at it's best it looks too easy for most viewers to appreciate. In golf (for example) which is no more difficult a game than pool, all the shots look tough, even the short ones. .... But I think maybe the #1 reason pool doesn't go over big on tv is that it isn't promoted well and lacks tradition (on tv anyway). Every tournament in golf is important to the players, but the PGA sets aside 4 tournaments each year as 'special' events to lure in the casual viewer. It would be nice to see such a thing in pool. Maybe it already exists and I don't know about it. Even NASCAR, which I don't care for, has a good system for rating the competitors - points built up through the year. It would be nice to have a definitive champion each year, not just a bunch of haphazard tournaments week in and week out. Maybe there's a down side to that. Maybe the players wouldn't like it. But I think it would be good for the game, at least as far as making it a more popular tv event.
Tommy Joe (The tv is my best friend)
Efren Beating Mosconi's record.
Efren plays in the Derby City Classic each year. He plays all games awesome as we all know, including bank pool where he has beaten the best when he beat Gary Spaeth. This year's DCC featured a 14.1 high run event and no one ran over 200 balls. Now that Kevin has joined up with Diamond Billiards, perhaps he will add a bonus for anyone who breaks Mosconi's record at the DCC? One thing is for sure, if he does make such an offer, you better get your hotel room early for January, 2007, DCC.
Cross Side Larry
"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"
Efren plays in the Derby City Classic each year. He plays all games awesome as we all know, including bank pool where he has beaten the best when he beat Gary Spaeth. This year's DCC featured a 14.1 high run event and no one ran over 200 balls. Now that Kevin has joined up with Diamond Billiards, perhaps he will add a bonus for anyone who breaks Mosconi's record at the DCC? One thing is for sure, if he does make such an offer, you better get your hotel room early for January, 2007, DCC.
Cross Side Larry
"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"
cuetechasaurus said:
imo 526 will never be broken in public because it takes a certain kind of player. one with more patience, skill and concentration than in any other game. you got to have big balls to play sets of this game for cash. the players of today imo want the fast buck. they're lazy and don't want to work for it anymore. Efren would have a very hard time doing this anyway as would any player today. can it be done maybe will it no.
JLW said:
Thanks for that. You said everything I tried to say, but managed to keep it short. I don't like the argument either. Records are made to be broken. Maybe Efren is better than Mosconi, maybe not. I don't care one way or the other. Aside from the players I believe the game of straight pool had something to do with the domination. If it wasn't Mosconi it was Greenleaf, or Crane, a few other guys here and there - and they dominated. The game had something to do with it. I respect the game of 9 ball. It's a tough game. But there's no dominant champion year in and year out and there never will be, because too many top players can run 9 and out. People can talk about who they think today's best player is, but they don't know for sure because there are too many good players running 9 and out for one of them to completely dominate.
Tommy Joe
Secaucus Fats
Banned
Bob Jewett said:So the nod goes to Alfredo de Oro?
Yes, the nod does go to DeOro!
DeOro was a champion in two different disciplines. He won 16 Pocket Billiards championships and 10 3 Cushion championships.
Mosconi won 15 Pocket Billiards championships.
DeOro was in a class by himself.
Thanks for bringing this up Bob!
