>>> 8-ball bar rules suck ~~ promoting BIH

Jigger

Jigger

Lets Roll....(...(..(.(O
Silver Member
:shrug: Neanderthal bar rules are like fingernails screeeching on a chalkboard. There must be a logical way to educate the mid-level players and promote ball-in-hand (BIH) rules for 8 Ball. I'm looking for your suggestions.

Sidenote: I am from a small city with a population of approx 135K in a 30 mile radius. We have only one real pool hall with 9 footers that is old/grungy/grim/inconvenient/hot/cold. The vast majority of local pool is played in bars on well maintained Valley barboxes. Bar tourneys are very popular here. The 20 to 30 player weekly bar tournaments are stuck on bar rules because they do tend to attract more players/drinkers which is the primary concern of the bars. 4 BCA type local leagues attract maybe 400 players - all 8-ball bar rules. One BIH league thrives with 13 teams or 70 stronger players.

I do what I can on an individual basis to discourage the very narrow attitude that BIH is chicken sh1t pool but it seems a lost cause. Would appreciate any ideas on how I might help increase the understanding and popularity of BIH and improve the level of play in this area.

Thx - Any thoughts are appreciated.
 
Good luck with that, but I don't know. I think it would be easier to go into peoples houses and tell them how to discipline their children.

I suggested a "Ball in Hand" FOR my opponent recently in a bar. He was a local, and I was a visitor. I might as well have told him to put on a dress and do the Hootchie-Koo. He recruited all his other boozey local buddies, to hurrumph and snicker at my offer. It went like this:

"Dis guy says I can put da cueball anywheres..."

Which in turn the half-in-the-bag chorus sounded:

"Hurrumph, ahaha, snicker, belch, hurrumph."

Moral:
When in Rome, ....dance the hootchie-koo.
 
Actually the solution is when in Rome . . .

Jigger,

Much easier on your patience if you simply accept bar table rules as another game without worrying about changing it. 135,000 people and probably 134,000 happy with bar table rules. Accept what is, play the game to the best of your ability. I've always played local rules and some are beyond strange. I just note them as they come up and don't let the locals change the rules as they go.

Hu




Jigger said:
:shrug: Neanderthal bar rules are like fingernails screeeching on a chalkboard. There must be a logical way to educate the mid-level players and promote ball-in-hand (BIH) rules for 8 Ball. I'm looking for your suggestions.

Sidenote: I am from a small city with a population of approx 135K in a 30 mile radius. We have only one real pool hall with 9 footers that is old/grungy/grim/inconvenient/hot/cold. The vast majority of local pool is played in bars on well maintained Valley barboxes. Bar tourneys are very popular here. The 20 to 30 player weekly bar tournaments are stuck on bar rules because they do tend to attract more players/drinkers which is the primary concern of the bars. 4 BCA type local leagues attract maybe 400 players - all 8-ball bar rules. One BIH league thrives with 13 teams or 70 stronger players.

I do what I can on an individual basis to discourage the very narrow attitude that BIH is chicken sh1t pool but it seems a lost cause. Would appreciate any ideas on how I might help increase the understanding and popularity of BIH and improve the level of play in this area.

Thx - Any thoughts are appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
Leagues have made the difference here in Des Moines the last 10 years or so. Before that, bar rules ruled. Explaining BIH was a chore and usually led to fights.

The personal way to handle it is pretty simple. When an opponent doesn't shoot a legal shot simply shoot the cueball back to where it was. When they complain (they ALWAYS complain), say, "YOU started it...We can do this all night long...that's why they came up with BIH rules."

My bud and I were playing safeties when necessary in local bar tournament and an opponent (of us and the BIH rules) said to me, "I'm gonna play one of your buddy's shots (meaning a safety)...watch this." He flubbed the safety badly, and thus left an open table, so my bud easily ran out, so I said, "It ain't as easy as it looks, is it?" He just grumbled about the rules again.

Jeff Livingston
 
i grew up in a town of 600 people with 2 bars and they only play 8 ball bar rules.........however.......if you try to pull a safety in there you will have your ass beat. BIH is simply a way to regulate safeties so that certain rules cannot be taken advantage of......they don't use it cause for the most part they are honorable enough not to take advantage... and going back to the original post........i don't belive bar rules inhibit the level of play. if you get good playing bar rules it's because you don't know how to duck.......it's run out or lose.
 
Last fall I participated in a tourney where the players couldn't agree on safety and BIH rules. One contingent was in favor of "no contact" pushouts, and all BIH's behind the headstring. The others were in favor of the real rules. I proposed a compromise: 1) Contact must be made with a ball from your group or it is a foul. 2) For a BIH foul, the CB can be placed between the side pockets, i.e. the rectangle determined by the diamonds on either side of the side pockets, which is about a 1X31/2 foot area on a bar table. Everyone agreed to try it, and we've been playing that way ever since. I know it's one more stupid local variation, but it saved a tourney from dissolving in argument, and became the new "house rules". Now, good safetys are applauded rather than MF'd. Something to think about.
Bill
 
I play in both the "bar rule" league and the "BIH league". At several of the past years bar league meetings I've proposed that we switch to BIH rules like the rest of the world. It's always good for about 20 minutes of comical heated arguments pro and con. The proposed change to BIH seems to be gathering a few more converts. The league promoter at the meeting cringes each time cause they're only concerned with the number of players.... I understand their point of view.

Thankfully we don't have a lot of the BS safeties that Jeff described above. When it does it gets heated quick.
 
billyjack said:
Last fall I participated in a tourney where the players couldn't agree on safety and BIH rules. One contingent was in favor of "no contact" pushouts, and all BIH's behind the headstring. The others were in favor of the real rules. I proposed a compromise: 1) Contact must be made with a ball from your group or it is a foul. 2) For a BIH foul, the CB can be placed between the side pockets, i.e. the rectangle determined by the diamonds on either side of the side pockets, which is about a 1X31/2 foot area on a bar table. Everyone agreed to try it, and we've been playing that way ever since. I know it's one more stupid local variation, but it saved a tourney from dissolving in argument, and became the new "house rules". Now, good safetys are applauded rather than MF'd. Something to think about.
Bill
Click to expand...

I like the compromise billyjack. Would be a huge improvement to see good safety play rewarded and understood to some extent. Thx.
 
Jigger said:
I like the compromise billyjack. Would be a huge improvement to see good safety play rewarded and understood to some extent. Thx.
Click to expand...

Jigger,

Converting the average redneck bar player to BIH rules, must be similar to telling "the Beard", or Jimmy Fusco, they MUST shoot at their hole, in One Pocket. Good luck wit dat ! :rolleyes:

Dick
 
SJDinPHX said:
Jigger,

Converting the average redneck bar player to BIH rules, must be similar to telling "the Beard", or Jimmy Fusco, they MUST shoot at their hole, in One Pocket. Good luck wit dat ! :rolleyes:

Dick
Click to expand...
Nothing Like some good oldschool 8 ball :)
 
I have yet to walk into a tavern/bar where the 'bar rules' were actually posted.

With that in mind...when I play in these places, I look at it as the person currently 'owning the table' as the one to be able to call the game to be played. And of course it's usually 'Straight 8'. So, I will play the 'Straight 8' game, usually win the table, and then switch it over to 'Vegas 8'. If my opponent does not like it...too bad....they can either play me to win the table back, or I will hold the table until someone comes along who does want to play 'Vegas 8'.

When they try to tell me that the bar rules are 'Straight 8', I simply ask them to point out to me where it is posted...which they cannot, and then they usually run and cry to the bartender, who could honestly care less what game is being played and what rules are being used....they're busy doing their job and have no time for stupid stuff.

Lisa
 
I printed a one page rule sheet that covers the items usually subject to argument, such as: 8 on the break, what constitutes a foul, open table after the break, call ball & pocket only, BIH guidelines, combinations allowed and disallowed etc. When we do our tourneys, I pass out a sheet to all, and hang one on the wall. May not cover every single situation as well as a comprehensive rule book, but nobody's taken a swing at anyone yet.
Bill
 
Bar rules suck man, plain and simple. It's like some guy said in another thread about this recently, if you don't like having to play by bar rules then stop playing in bars! Lol. But like you mentioned for guys like yourself sometimes there are just no good pool rooms around.

I play with a friend of mine occasionally and this problem always comes up. He mostly plays in bars, because he likes the atmosphere he says. I tell him I dont know how you could stand it. There's usually only one table in there, so if you lose you're screwed. People are always changing the rules, or coming up with some new one you've never heard of. The equipment almost always sucks, big time. When we play he tells me, "Oh are we playing by YOUR rules now?" I just laugh and say "They're not MY rules, they're the BCA rules, I've got the rule book at my house if you want to borrow it. You're not playing in a bar now, this is a real pool hall, with full size 9ft tables, people play by the real rules here, BCA rules, any pool hall you go to and you go to play in a pool tournament they're going to be playing by these rules". I even have the owner chime in who is watching tv near by to assure my buddy that this is the "correct" way to play. So my buddy, even though I know he doesn't like it, because he's used to playing by those crappy bar table rules agrees to play MY way. Lol. I feel kind of bad, and I would play HIS way but I just couldn't stand for him to be asking me every other shot, while I am down on the shot no less, that how am I going to shoot that, am I going to go off of a rail, or am I going to go off another ball or something. That shit is just ridiculous, and annoying, not to mention that he is sharking the shit out of me everytime he interupts me to ask! I also find it funny that he calls the balls by their colors and refuses to learn their numbers, "orange ball in the side". Lol.

I actually did a search just to see if there were any "official" bar table rules and this is what I came up with. Funny stuff.
 
I generaly go with the flow as I have always played with Bar room rules in the past ... But the town I live in now has a league that is sanctioned by the VNEA ... And I have come the know BIH well and like the game much better. It is all most play here because of league they figure if we play league via the VNEA rules on thier web site we need to play it all the time... Which is great because bar room rules are seldom used in this town ... So perhaps having a league started up or converted to VNEA or one of the other sanctioned leagues that use ball in hand would help to eatablish these rules where you live ...
 
Jigger said:
Thx - Any thoughts are appreciated.
Click to expand...
Leagues and tournaments using World Standardized Rules. Start them. Incorporate them. At the very least, you'll end up building a core of people that like to play with a ruleset that makes sense. You won't change the majority of them, however.

Fred
 
mostly got it right!

The link is to something fast larry wrote but I have to say he mostly got it right and a funny read besides!

Hu




trueblu8 said:
Bar rules suck man, plain and simple. It's like some guy said in another thread about this recently, if you don't like having to play by bar rules then stop playing in bars! Lol. But like you mentioned for guys like yourself sometimes there are just no good pool rooms around.

I play with a friend of mine occasionally and this problem always comes up. He mostly plays in bars, because he likes the atmosphere he says. I tell him I dont know how you could stand it. There's usually only one table in there, so if you lose you're screwed. People are always changing the rules, or coming up with some new one you've never heard of. The equipment almost always sucks, big time. When we play he tells me, "Oh are we playing by YOUR rules now?" I just laugh and say "They're not MY rules, they're the BCA rules, I've got the rule book at my house if you want to borrow it. You're not playing in a bar now, this is a real pool hall, with full size 9ft tables, people play by the real rules here, BCA rules, any pool hall you go to and you go to play in a pool tournament they're going to be playing by these rules". I even have the owner chime in who is watching tv near by to assure my buddy that this is the "correct" way to play. So my buddy, even though I know he doesn't like it, because he's used to playing by those crappy bar table rules agrees to play MY way. Lol. I feel kind of bad, and I would play HIS way but I just couldn't stand for him to be asking me every other shot, while I am down on the shot no less, that how am I going to shoot that, am I going to go off of a rail, or am I going to go off another ball or something. That shit is just ridiculous, and annoying, not to mention that he is sharking the shit out of me everytime he interupts me to ask! I also find it funny that he calls the balls by their colors and refuses to learn their numbers, "orange ball in the side". Lol.

I actually did a search just to see if there were any "official" bar table rules and this is what I came up with. Funny stuff.
Click to expand...
 
LOL- Thx for the funny Bar Rules and story TruBlu8 <credit Fast Larry>, had to copy and paste part of it:

BAR TABLE RULES. THE BILLY JOE BOB RULE BOOK.
There is no rule book; we make it up as we go along.

Rev...........................................................
3 pages, CR, Fast Larry Guningter, all rights reserved, 1-19-06, Rev 2,
7-24-06, published in numerous pool internet venues.

Playing pool in bars is playing with morons who do not know squat rule
#1. There are no rules.
Rule #2, in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Rule #3, red necks do not care what your rules are, they have their own
and you are expected to adapt to them.
Rule #4, if you do not know their rule book which does not exist, they
then have the legal right and obligation to kick the ever loving ***
out of you which will be backed and sponsored by the entire bar if you
violate one of their house rules.

What do you expect of red neck losers playing on a 20 year old dead
railed bar boxes from hell with a wall of house cues with tips and
ferrules missing. If they knew anything they would not be playing in
this hell hole nor would they put up with this bull crap.

No way you can tell them or explain to them cue ball in hand, or that
behind the line went out in 1973, they do not want to hear that, nor
can they possibly ever believe that lie. They look at you like you are
the moron for even saying that. Hell every one knows the cue ball
goes behind the line, that aint even up for discussion.

Playing safe is called knee ga pool by them, no offense to our black
readers; this is just a fact of life. Listen to rap music, you hear
this term every other 3rd word so please no body get offended here or
go off on this please. That is not an insult to you, just a pool
playing term that has been around for centuries. Playing safe is a
break your thumbs offense. This gives any good drunk bully now the
right to kick your ass, especially if you beat him using these banned
rules which they consider cheating. They will be waiting for you in
the parking lot. I hope your health insurance is paid up in full.
 
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ridewiththewind said:
I have yet to walk into a tavern/bar where the 'bar rules' were actually posted.

With that in mind...when I play in these places, I look at it as the person currently 'owning the table' as the one to be able to call the game to be played. And of course it's usually 'Straight 8'. So, I will play the 'Straight 8' game, usually win the table, and then switch it over to 'Vegas 8'. If my opponent does not like it...too bad....they can either play me to win the table back, or I will hold the table until someone comes along who does want to play 'Vegas 8'.

When they try to tell me that the bar rules are 'Straight 8', I simply ask them to point out to me where it is posted...which they cannot, and then they usually run and cry to the bartender, who could honestly care less what game is being played and what rules are being used....they're busy doing their job and have no time for stupid stuff.

Lisa
Click to expand...

Are Vegas 8 rules the same as VNEA BIH Lisa? Sounds alot more sexy and maybe easier to sell than BIH which most hardheads will refuse immediately.
 
There are 2 aspects of 'regular bar rules' which I disagree with, and one of those rules brings up one more.

1. Slop
1a. If no slop, then it should be call pocket NOT call shot!! Call shot is stupid and does not allow for cheating pockets and playing position. If another ball is sitting near a pocket, we call it a big pocket without having to worry if you go rail first, go clean, or hit the ball on the way in. We just know it's going to go and can worry about which way we want the cueball to go.

2. BIH - what you need to ask all these bar players is, "Why should I be penalized for YOUR foul"????? Sometimes this will penetrate their brains. :o

If they scratch and your only ball is behind the line, why should I be penalized? In fact, they will do that on purpose, so the only recourse is to plan your run out so that you don't leave your last ball in the kitchen. STUPID!! :angry:

There is also the advantage of speeding up the game like someone else pointed out, because you could potentially bunt the ball anywhere you like forever.

And also, the only way they are going to get better is realize that there are severe consequences for fouling.
 
rackmsuckr said:
If they scratch and your only ball is behind the line, why should I be penalized? In fact, they will do that on purpose, so the only recourse is to plan your run out so that you don't leave your last ball in the kitchen. STUPID!! :angry:
Click to expand...


Linda,

Most of your post I agree with but here I feel you shot yourself in the foot a bit. You point out that the rule can be used to affect strategy. How is that any different than the One Pocket rule that the other player's ball comes back on the table if you make it and scratch?

Some rules make sense or don't make sense, some simply define the structure of the game and it doesn't matter what they are. Ball in hand anywhere or ball in hand in the kitchen isn't one of the things I consider a major deal. Of course I played eight ball ball in the kitchen for ten or fifteen years!

Hu
 
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