8 ball barroom rules questions

L

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Local bar has started a regular tournament and brought in some league players to seed the roster. Several local regulars don't like league rules and have requested and received their own barroom 8ball regular tournament. But the arguments pop up of "the way we've always played it" (barroom rules) versus league rules. The locals get all snotty about how silly the league rules are.

A couple of barroom rules...

1. Opponent scratches. That gives me cue ball in hand but only in the kitchen. My object ball is frozen at the center, on the end rail. Sans playing safe, having to kick that shot in is close to impossible for most players. (Even hitting it can be a challenge.) So, the opponent is being 'rewarded' for bad play. (He scratched.) I have never understood how this is equitable. So, question on this is... was this always the "way it was" in 8ball until tournaments started cue ball in hand table-wide? What's the history of this?

2. Must call shot and you have to call every friggin intricacy of the shot. "Three ball off the six into the side rail off the two ball into the corner pocket." You need a referee to monitor that. Fights can occur. I figure the leagues changed it to prevent fighting. League says if you call the object in a pocket, if it goes in, however it goes in, it's good. Now, I was first exposed to 8ball in the 60s and I don't recall having to describe every detail of a called shot but maybe I'm just forgetful. Seems to me that the current barroom requirement to announce every shot detail developed after the 60s.

3. Another bone of contention is about making the 8 on the break. In barroom, you win. In leauge, is it different, maybe you have to spot it? (If it's a pay table and you can't get the table key, how you gonna get the ball, it's inside the table.) If you do not win in leauge, I suppose they changed it to remove the 'luck' of making the 8 on break?

4. In barroom, if you scratch attempting the 8, you lose. Not sure, but maybe it's different in league. Curious why and when this changed.

If I'm wrong on some of this or you have some insight, advise. I'm a local regular at the subject bar but, especially No. 1 and No. 2 above, I prefer the league rules and some of these local regulars are awful cocky on this stuff, lol. Just curious. I've had some discussions and given my opinion but some of these guys get all pissed off, lol. I'm not a league player, I just kinda like their rules, seems better to me. I'm not sure, but I think the league guys are BCA.
 
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The best “history of 8-ball” in one article would from Bob Jewett’s 8-ball Rules Billiards Digest Article:


For a pseudo tongue-in-cheek look at bar rules across the country, see my Cornerman 8-ball Bar Rules.


Many people will try to tell you about how the original rules of 8-ball were. Most have no idea. In general, bar rules are locally made up for every conceivable reason.
 
The problem with bar room rules is that every bar has different rules. League pool has different rules also depends on sanctioning body.
Post the rules in the bar,make sure everyone playing reads them. If someone doesn't like the rules they don't have to play.
 
i hate bar rules for all of the reasons you posted, especially when your opponent scratches and your last ball is behind the line and you cant even shoot at it with ball in hand. But, with the scratch on the 8 and loss of game, it has always been that way anywhere ive played. I like my local leagues rules. A scratch is ball in hand anywhere you want, except after the break. It is called pockets only, doesnt matter how the ball gets there, as long as it goes in the intended pocket. So no....."6 ball in the corner, off the 8". Simply put, I like called shots, and ball in hand when a foul occurs.
 
livemusic said:
Local bar has started a regular tournament and brought in some league players to seed the roster. Several local regulars don't like league rules and have requested and received their own barroom 8ball regular tournament. But the arguments pop up of "the way we've always played it" (barroom rules) versus league rules. The locals get all snotty about how silly the league rules are.

A couple of barroom rules...

1. Opponent scratches. That gives me cue ball in hand but only in the kitchen. My object ball is frozen at the center, on the end rail. Sans playing safe, having to kick that shot in is close to impossible for most players. (Even hitting it can be a challenge.) So, the opponent is being 'rewarded' for bad play. (He scratched.) I have never understood how this is equitable. So, question on this is... was this always the "way it was" in 8ball until tournaments started cue ball in hand table-wide? What's the history of this?

2. Must call shot and you have to call every friggin intricacy of the shot. "Three ball off the six into the side rail off the two ball into the corner pocket." You need a referee to monitor that. Fights can occur. I figure the leagues changed it to prevent fighting. League says if you call the object in a pocket, if it goes in, however it goes in, it's good. Now, I was first exposed to 8ball in the 60s and I don't recall having to describe every detail of a called shot but maybe I'm just forgetful. Seems to me that the current barroom requirement to announce every shot detail developed after the 60s.

3. Another bone of contention is about making the 8 on the break. In barroom, you win. In leauge, is it different, maybe you have to spot it? (If it's a pay table and you can't get the key, how you gonna get the ball, it's inside the table.) If you do not win in leauge, I suppose they changed it to remove the 'luck' of making the 8 on break?

4. In barroom, if you scratch attempting the 8, you lose. Not sure, but maybe it's different in league. Curious why and when this changed.

If I'm wrong on some of this or you have some insight, advise. I'm a local regular at the subject bar but, especially No. 1 and No. 2 above, I prefer the league rules and some of these local regulars are awful cocky on this stuff, lol. Just curious. I've had some discussions and given my opinion but some of these guys get all pissed off, lol. I'm not a league player, I just kinda like their rules, seems better to me. I'm not sure, but I think the league guys are BCA.
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Just don't play in a tournament like that. That's for drunks who want to put quarters on the rail.
 
I just remembered an incident from 25 years ago in a tournament I was playing in. The rules were posted but seemed to change while we were playing. I was playing the guy running the tournament 3rd round, hill hill and he misses and leaves me a 3 ball combination with 1 of his balls in the middle of it. I shoot it and he calls a foul saying I can't use his ball in a combination.
He takes ball in hand and wins the set. I was pissed, not going to argue with the fool. I came back around and double dipped him in the final for all of 280.00 which after I won the first set he had the nerve to ask me if I wanted to split since it was 2 am and he new I had a long drive home. Yeah not a chance
 
Cornerman said:
The best “history of 8-ball” in one article would from Bob Jewett’s 8-ball Rules Billiards Digest Article:


For a pseudo tongue-in-cheek look at bar rules across the country, see my Cornerman 8-ball Bar Rules.


Many people will try to tell you about how the original rules of 8-ball were. Most have no idea. In general, bar rules are locally made up for every conceivable reason.
Click to expand...
And for current league rules, here are the CSI/BCAPL/USAPL rules:


And here are the current World Standardized Rules:

wpapool.com

Rules

Navigate the rules and regulations of pool with ease. Stay informed and play fair with WPA Rules!
wpapool.com wpapool.com
 
livemusic said:
Local bar has started a regular tournament and brought in some league players to seed the roster. Several local regulars don't like league rules and have requested and received their own barroom 8ball regular tournament. But the arguments pop up of "the way we've always played it" (barroom rules) versus league rules. The locals get all snotty about how silly the league rules are.

A couple of barroom rules...

1. Opponent scratches. That gives me cue ball in hand but only in the kitchen. My object ball is frozen at the center, on the end rail. Sans playing safe, having to kick that shot in is close to impossible for most players. (Even hitting it can be a challenge.) So, the opponent is being 'rewarded' for bad play. (He scratched.) I have never understood how this is equitable. So, question on this is... was this always the "way it was" in 8ball until tournaments started cue ball in hand table-wide? What's the history of this?

2. Must call shot and you have to call every friggin intricacy of the shot. "Three ball off the six into the side rail off the two ball into the corner pocket." You need a referee to monitor that. Fights can occur. I figure the leagues changed it to prevent fighting. League says if you call the object in a pocket, if it goes in, however it goes in, it's good. Now, I was first exposed to 8ball in the 60s and I don't recall having to describe every detail of a called shot but maybe I'm just forgetful. Seems to me that the current barroom requirement to announce every shot detail developed after the 60s.

3. Another bone of contention is about making the 8 on the break. In barroom, you win. In leauge, is it different, maybe you have to spot it? (If it's a pay table and you can't get the table key, how you gonna get the ball, it's inside the table.) If you do not win in leauge, I suppose they changed it to remove the 'luck' of making the 8 on break?

4. In barroom, if you scratch attempting the 8, you lose. Not sure, but maybe it's different in league. Curious why and when this changed.

If I'm wrong on some of this or you have some insight, advise. I'm a local regular at the subject bar but, especially No. 1 and No. 2 above, I prefer the league rules and some of these local regulars are awful cocky on this stuff, lol. Just curious. I've had some discussions and given my opinion but some of these guys get all pissed off, lol. I'm not a league player, I just kinda like their rules, seems better to me. I'm not sure, but I think the league guys are BCA.
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Typical chickenshit bikerbar rules. All its good for is starting fights.
 
1. There were rules that fouls were shot from the kitchen, more common in the 70s and early 80s, however in the actual rules it was stipulated that if the next legal ball you can shoot at was also behind the line, the closest one of those balls would be spotted so you can hit it. This became a bit convoluted and messed up by those that did not know the rules so it turned into "shoot behind the line" and nothing else.

2. Normal for places with made up rules.

3. 8 on the break has been a win and has not been a win in many rule sets. Leagues that follow the WPA rules more say you just spot it, APA and TAP league the 8 on break is a win. And of course if you scratch and make the 8 on the break it's a loss. This is probably the only "bar" rule that I don't really think is fully stupid.

4. Also a bit normal for some rule sets, even with players that are good. But you need to scratch on the 8 not just foul, some places use any foul on the 8 is a loss, so if you need to kick at it, and miss the hit, it's a loss. Some places if the cueball lands in the hole on the 8, you lose, the official rules state you only lose if you make both the 8 and the cueball on the shot. So you can scratch with the cueball but if you miss the 8, it's not a loss.
 
I just thought of something else. I have seen "scratch with any attempt on the 8ball and you lose." And barroom players ALWAYS shoot at the 8, no matter how hard the shot is. In such situations, I have played safe, executing a shot where there is no way I will scratch and had people say "you can't do that." LOL! You have to attempt the shot at the 8ball or you lose! But if you DO attempt the shot and scratch, you lose!
 
livemusic said:
I just thought of something else. I have seen "scratch with any attempt on the 8ball and you lose." And barroom players ALWAYS shoot at the 8, no matter how hard the shot is. In such situations, I have played safe, executing a shot where there is no way I will scratch and had people say "you can't do that." LOL! You have to attempt the shot at the 8ball or you lose! But if you DO attempt the shot and scratch, you lose!
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That’s the “Honest Effort” thing mentioned in my ruleset.
 
Cornerman said:
That’s the “Honest Effort” thing mentioned in my ruleset.
Click to expand...

I just read your links and your page... that is some good (and hilarious) stuff in there. Right on. What a crock "barroom pool" is, lol. It's a wonder there isn't a killing every night. The only possible way to lessen the number of killings is to post the bar's official rules. I don't think I have ever seen that, lol.
 
You get what you pay for. Bar play is just that. Sex/drugs/Alcohol and often loud rock/roll.
 
livemusic said:
Local bar has started a regular tournament and brought in some league players to seed the roster. Several local regulars don't like league rules and have requested and received their own barroom 8ball regular tournament. But the arguments pop up of "the way we've always played it" (barroom rules) versus league rules. The locals get all snotty about how silly the league rules are.

A couple of barroom rules...

1. Opponent scratches. That gives me cue ball in hand but only in the kitchen. My object ball is frozen at the center, on the end rail. Sans playing safe, having to kick that shot in is close to impossible for most players. (Even hitting it can be a challenge.) So, the opponent is being 'rewarded' for bad play. (He scratched.) I have never understood how this is equitable. So, question on this is... was this always the "way it was" in 8ball until tournaments started cue ball in hand table-wide? What's the history of this?

2. Must call shot and you have to call every friggin intricacy of the shot. "Three ball off the six into the side rail off the two ball into the corner pocket." You need a referee to monitor that. Fights can occur. I figure the leagues changed it to prevent fighting. League says if you call the object in a pocket, if it goes in, however it goes in, it's good. Now, I was first exposed to 8ball in the 60s and I don't recall having to describe every detail of a called shot but maybe I'm just forgetful. Seems to me that the current barroom requirement to announce every shot detail developed after the 60s.

3. Another bone of contention is about making the 8 on the break. In barroom, you win. In leauge, is it different, maybe you have to spot it? (If it's a pay table and you can't get the table key, how you gonna get the ball, it's inside the table.) If you do not win in leauge, I suppose they changed it to remove the 'luck' of making the 8 on break?

4. In barroom, if you scratch attempting the 8, you lose. Not sure, but maybe it's different in league. Curious why and when this changed.

If I'm wrong on some of this or you have some insight, advise. I'm a local regular at the subject bar but, especially No. 1 and No. 2 above, I prefer the league rules and some of these local regulars are awful cocky on this stuff, lol. Just curious. I've had some discussions and given my opinion but some of these guys get all pissed off, lol. I'm not a league player, I just kinda like their rules, seems better to me. I'm not sure, but I think the league guys are BCA.
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1) old timers play it that way, with the exception of "spot your object ball if it is your only shot"
- makes it much more bearable. The kitchen dates back to straight pool scratch rules
 
Quit playing with those who want to play with "bar rules", or "Bozo rules" as we used to call them.
Play in some local smaller tournaments where the rules are standardized like Vegas rules or BCA rules etc. You will get to know those better players and when you see them somewhere see if you can get in a few games with them whenever you can. You may not win much at first but you can learn a LOT about playing pool from them!! Or just sit and watch them to see how they do things.
Eventually you'll get to where you don't care what rules the other guy imposes on you because you'll win anyway.
 
bar rules are just that and if you learn them and play within them you do fine.

they were generally called playing honest. you just played honestly and didn't play safes or intentionally miss. and always tried to hit the ball.

it worked fine both ways for both players and the best player still always won. and no fights. unless someone tried to play shit-y on you.


if you wanted true rules you went to the pool room.
 
hurricane145 said:
Eventually you'll get to where you don't care what rules the other guy imposes on you because you'll win anyway.
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If I'm playing somewhere that plays bar rules, this is what I do. Just play whatever rules and beat them. I grew up on bar rules in the 80s and 90s so it's not hard to remember. It can be fun to play bar rules, especially if you're just doing it for entertainment and socializing. There are some really good players who play this way but crumble with BIH/league rules.

Know the traps, like not having only one OB in the kitchen, so don't ever do that. Also, never run out all your OBs down to the 8 or you'll get into some dumb shot territory. Remember you can always arrange their balls with caroms and such while making your own ball legally. It adds a strategy element if you happen to get someone with a head for strategy.

Last pocket is pretty fun with bar rules unless you have a line of folks waiting to play. That's what annoyed me, some "star at the bar" type insisting on last pocket or bank the 8 clean and there's a dozen people waiting to play on one table. I'd generally beat them (or try to) and just change it to straight 8. Some matches would take several minutes with only the 8 on the table. The "star" could generally out-bank the competition so just used it to keep the table longer.

It's pool, it's not "real pool" but it can be a fun change of pace.
 
boogieman said:
If I'm playing somewhere that plays bar rules, this is what I do. Just play whatever rules and beat them. I grew up on bar rules in the 80s and 90s so it's not hard to remember. It can be fun to play bar rules, especially if you're just doing it for entertainment and socializing. There are some really good players who play this way but crumble with BIH/league rules.

Know the traps, like not having only one OB in the kitchen, so don't ever do that. Also, never run out all your OBs down to the 8 or you'll get into some dumb shot territory. Remember you can always arrange their balls with caroms and such while making your own ball legally. It adds a strategy element if you happen to get someone with a head for strategy.

Last pocket is pretty fun with bar rules unless you have a line of folks waiting to play. That's what annoyed me, some "star at the bar" type insisting on last pocket or bank the 8 clean and there's a dozen people waiting to play on one table. I'd generally beat them (or try to) and just change it to straight 8. Some matches would take several minutes with only the 8 on the table. The "star" could generally out-bank the competition so just used it to keep the table longer.

It's pool, it's not "real pool" but it can be a fun change of pace.
Click to expand...
"I was playing the guy running the tournament 3rd round, hill hill and he misses and leaves me a 3 ball combination with 1 of his balls in the middle of it. I shoot it and he calls a foul saying I can't use his ball in a combination.
He takes ball in hand and wins the set."

This quote from above is the reason I won't play bar rules with anyone unless shit like this is spelled out at the beginning. Just another way for a natural loser to win a game. Nothing in your post can be used to defend against this crap.
 
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