8-Ball - Can't runout, but shoot in balls anyway

Billy_Bob

Billy_Bob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll be playing 8-ball for fun in a bar and it never ceases to amaze me. The 8 will be blocked (by my ball or balls) to where it can't be made directly into any pocket. And no easy breakout balls nearby.

But my opponent will shoot in all his balls anyway. While he is doing this, I'm saying to myself "What is he going to do when he gets to the 8? It will not go anywhere? So why is he shooting in his balls? Doesn't he see the 8 is tied up?"

So then he gets to the 8, shoots at it and breaks up the cluster, then I run out (as my opponent was kind enough to break out my balls for me). Note that prior to this, I intentionally missed a shot and left about 4 balls on the table, so he can't snooker me easily. Just about anywhere he leaves the cue ball, I will have a shot.

This happens again and again and again. I've even told some of these guys not to do this - don't runout until you can.

Lately when I have several balls tied up and things are not looking good for a runout, I'll shoot one of my balls to tie up the 8. Or block one of my opponent's balls from going into a corner pocket. Then I can take my sweet time, break out my balls and not worry about my opponent running out (unless they are good at banking). (The better players will quickly shoot a ball into mine so their ball is no longer tied up.)
 
Billy_Bob said:
I'll be playing 8-ball for fun in a bar and it never ceases to amaze me. The 8 will be blocked (by my ball or balls) to where it can't be made directly into any pocket. And no easy breakout balls nearby.

But my opponent will shoot in all his balls anyway. While he is doing this, I'm saying to myself "What is he going to do when he gets to the 8? It will not go anywhere? So why is he shooting in his balls? Doesn't he see the 8 is tied up?"

So then he gets to the 8, shoots at it and breaks up the cluster, then I run out (as my opponent was kind enough to break out my balls for me). Note that prior to this, I intentionally missed a shot and left about 4 balls on the table, so he can't snooker me easily. Just about anywhere he leaves the cue ball, I will have a shot.

This happens again and again and again. I've even told some of these guys not to do this - don't runout until you can.

Lately when I have several balls tied up and things are not looking good for a runout, I'll shoot one of my balls to tie up the 8. Or block one of my opponent's balls from going into a corner pocket. Then I can take my sweet time, break out my balls and not worry about my opponent running out (unless they are good at banking). (The better players will quickly shoot a ball into mine so their ball is no longer tied up.)
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I played out in a TAP team regional competition for the first time recently, on bar boxes, and I saw the same thing. These are my explanations:

(1) These obviously weaker players do not want to contend with problems, they'd rather get that stress out of the way and pocket whatever they can first.

(2) They don't know what to do with the 8-ball.

(3) They are hoping that somehow during their run they might fortunately break up the 8-ball cluster.

(4) They don't think you can run out --- they think they will get a shot at the table again.

(5) They think they can kick at anything.
 
Having said that, I still believe that fortune favors the brave, and many a time when I've tried to run out with 2 or more clusters, I always seem to get in position and solve them successfully for the runout. It's really a personal judgment thing, and how much you feel in stroke at the present moment.
 
I see this alot aswell....and I'm sitting back giggling when they get to the 8 and the expression on their face is "Well shit, now what?"...LOLz
________
 
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Billy_Bob said:
This happens again and again and again. I've even told some of these guys not to do this - don't runout until you can.

Lately when I have several balls tied up and things are not looking good for a runout, I'll shoot one of my balls to tie up the 8. Or block one of my opponent's balls from going into a corner pocket. Then I can take my sweet time, break out my balls and not worry about my opponent running out (unless they are good at banking). (The better players will quickly shoot a ball into mine so their ball is no longer tied up.)
Click to expand...

In our league it is based on points/round and not wins. So if you win you get 10, and then the other person gets the number of balls that are down. On many occasions, it is better for our player to get 5-6 instead of trying to win :) 10-6 isn't that bad a loss. 10-1 however adds up very quickly and sometimes you can't catch the other team because of it.
 
The strategy to wait for the other guy to bury themself is pretty effective at the intermediate level, but top level players will often enough manage to break open the cluster or perhaps bank the 8 over a pocket, leaving a tough out or a tough safe for you.

So don't knock the guy who goes for the tricky out too much, as the top players will take on many of these tricky outs. If you're not trying to make them, then your progress to the higher levels will be difficult.

Don't just play to win, play as if you're trying to beat a pro, and then you'll develop your skill sets for the higher levels of play.

Not knocking you BB. The fact that you are confident to play from 4 or so balls behind shows that you have pretty good skills, but to move to the higher levels, you'll have to increase your odds of going out when the table is congested with the opponent's balls and clusters need to be broken up and difficult position needs to be attempted to get on challenging balls.

I used to play the way you are experimenting with, but eventually ran into players that consistantly went out when I was confident they wouldn't. To beat them, I had to keep them off the table, or tied up real good.

Basically, you've got to shift your percentages of clearing the table on your first open shot after a successful break, or after your opponent's dry break to around 50%. Even upward of 70% on fast big pocket tables at top levels.

If your opponent is in the 20-30% range, then it's probably a good strategy to sit back and wait a bit...develop your problem balls, tie his up etc. But the goal is to get yourself toward the 50% range, so that most of the time you come to the table you're trying to go out. And when you get to that level, playing the kind of players you're playing now will be a fun exercise. You won't mind messing up half your outs to give them a shot, cause you'll likely get a lot more chances and wipe them pretty easily.
 
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Billy_Bob said:
I'll be playing 8-ball for fun in a bar and it never ceases to amaze me. The 8 will be blocked (by my ball or balls) to where it can't be made directly into any pocket. And no easy breakout balls nearby.

But my opponent will shoot in all his balls anyway. While he is doing this, I'm saying to myself "What is he going to do when he gets to the 8? It will not go anywhere? So why is he shooting in his balls? Doesn't he see the 8 is tied up?"

So then he gets to the 8, shoots at it and breaks up the cluster, then I run out (as my opponent was kind enough to break out my balls for me). Note that prior to this, I intentionally missed a shot and left about 4 balls on the table, so he can't snooker me easily. Just about anywhere he leaves the cue ball, I will have a shot.

This happens again and again and again. I've even told some of these guys not to do this - don't runout until you can.

Lately when I have several balls tied up and things are not looking good for a runout, I'll shoot one of my balls to tie up the 8. Or block one of my opponent's balls from going into a corner pocket. Then I can take my sweet time, break out my balls and not worry about my opponent running out (unless they are good at banking). (The better players will quickly shoot a ball into mine so their ball is no longer tied up.)
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if you keep your strategy up against better players you will get beat....bar box 8-ball is a run out game....be careful with your strategy in competition...they say never under estimate an opponent :)
 
Colin Colenso said:
The strategy to wait for the other guy to bury themself is pretty effective at the intermediate level, but top level players will often enough manage to break open the cluster or perhaps bank the 8 over a pocket, leaving a tough out or a tough safe for you.

So don't knock the guy who goes for the tricky out too much, as the top players will take on many of these tricky outs. If you're not trying to make them, then your progress to the higher levels will be difficult.

Don't just play to win, play as if you're trying to beat a pro, and then you'll develop your skill sets for the higher levels of play.

Not knocking you BB. The fact that you are confident to play from 4 or so balls behind shows that you have pretty good skills, but to move to the higher levels, you'll have to increase your odds of going out when the table is congested with the opponent's balls and clusters need to be broken up and difficult position needs to be attempted to get on challenging balls.

I used to play the way you are experimenting with, but eventually ran into players that consistantly went out when I was confident they wouldn't. To beat them, I had to keep them off the table, or tied up real good.

Basically, you've got to shift your percentages of clearing the table on your first open shot after a successful break, or after your opponent's dry break to around 50%. Even upward of 70% on fast big pocket tables at top levels.

If your opponent is in the 20-30% range, then it's probably a good strategy to sit back and wait a bit...develop your problem balls, tie his up etc. But the goal is to get yourself toward the 50% range, so that most of the time you come to the table you're trying to go out. And when you get to that level, playing the kind of players you're playing now will be a fun exercise. You won't mind messing up half your outs to give them a shot, cause you'll likely get a lot more chances and wipe them pretty easily.
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Exactly. I've been trying to say this to Billy for a while. 8 ball is tricky because you have to play according to your opponent. But, not to pick on you either, Billy, it seems to me from your posts you're confusing the "wait strategy" for the correct way to play the game. Look at some Accu-stats videos and you'll see that "waiting" (as fun and bar-effective as it might be) is a last resort thing for all the great 8 ball players.
 
Colin Colenso said:
...Basically, you've got to shift your percentages of clearing the table on your first open shot after a successful break, or after your opponent's dry break to around 50%. Even upward of 70% on fast big pocket tables at top levels...
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I'm working on this, but my position play is not perfect. I guess you could say a succesful run is only as good as the weakest link. And I'll have one weak link in my runs typically which will mess up the whole thing.

Like last night I ran 5 balls and pretty much left perfect position for each next shot. Then after shooting the 6th ball, the cue ball rolled about 4 inches too far and I snookered myself and could not shoot in the 7th. (All of my opponents balls were still on the table.)

So that is my trouble right now. I'll do pretty good with most shots leaving good position for the next shot, but then there is that one shot where I mess up.

Or breaking out balls, I am not able to tell *exactly* where the cue ball will go after the shot, so I will miss when trying to break out clusters.

But I see this as a time thing. For now I'm having fun running balls and trying to leave good position for my next shots and trying to break out balls.

I think I just need a couple of years of experience before I become dangerous. I do have my moments every once and awhile where every single shot is perfect and I runout (with all my opponents balls still on table).
 
Interpretation

Colin Colenso said:
The strategy to wait for the other guy to bury themself is pretty effective at the intermediate level, but top level players will often enough manage to break open the cluster or perhaps bank the 8 over a pocket, leaving a tough out or a tough safe for you.

So don't knock the guy who goes for the tricky out too much, as the top players will take on many of these tricky outs. If you're not trying to make them, then your progress to the higher levels will be difficult.

Don't just play to win, play as if you're trying to beat a pro, and then you'll develop your skill sets for the higher levels of play.

Not knocking you BB. The fact that you are confident to play from 4 or so balls behind shows that you have pretty good skills, but to move to the higher levels, you'll have to increase your odds of going out when the table is congested with the opponent's balls and clusters need to be broken up and difficult position needs to be attempted to get on challenging balls.

I used to play the way you are experimenting with, but eventually ran into players that consistantly went out when I was confident they wouldn't. To beat them, I had to keep them off the table, or tied up real good.

Basically, you've got to shift your percentages of clearing the table on your first open shot after a successful break, or after your opponent's dry break to around 50%. Even upward of 70% on fast big pocket tables at top levels.

If your opponent is in the 20-30% range, then it's probably a good strategy to sit back and wait a bit...develop your problem balls, tie his up etc. But the goal is to get yourself toward the 50% range, so that most of the time you come to the table you're trying to go out. And when you get to that level, playing the kind of players you're playing now will be a fun exercise. You won't mind messing up half your outs to give them a shot, cause you'll likely get a lot more chances and wipe them pretty easily.
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It seems to me BB is trying to run out when he can, but that getting better (e.g. Colin's level of play) means, or implies, an ability ro run out in more difficult & challenging circumstances - including breaking up a cluster or two along the way. BB didn't seem confident in his ability to do that at this point. That lack of skill is where he is short of the top level players - if BB can't break the cluster he will have to relinquish the table. A top level player who can break out the clustered 8 will run out and win; a mid-level league player is much less likely to.

So, rather than thinking this is a flaw in how BB approaches the game from a strategic point of view, I think it is more a lack of a critical skill to be able to take on top flight competition (being able to direct whitey to break clusters). Would you agree with that?

The reason I ask is I think I'm in much the same boat as BB here, I can play position reasonably to areas, let's say, but not confidently with enough precision to know I'l break up a two ball cluster...
 
Billy_Bob said:
I think I just need a couple of years of experience before I become dangerous. I do have my moments every once and awhile where every single shot is perfect and I runout (with all my opponents balls still on table).
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Sorry to burst UR bubble but U have a long way to go to be a threat to anyone other than a bar banger considering U only played serious for 2 years. A lot of beginners feel like U do because U learn so much so quickly and see big jumps in your game right away. Unfortunately improvements don't keep coming like that. Like they say, U don't know what U don't know.

Brian
 
Why does this bother you?... Ask them to gamble some!

This is how alot of people play 8-ball, because of lack of knowledge. There are some pretty good players down here (6's and 7's, TAP) who try to just run out 8-ball all day. They see how almost impossible it is to run-out, and they still go for it, and fall on their faces all day.

It doesn't bother me a bit. Actually, sometimes it pays my bills.
 
Billy_Bob said:
I'm working on this, but my position play is not perfect. I guess you could say a succesful run is only as good as the weakest link. And I'll have one weak link in my runs typically which will mess up the whole thing.

Like last night I ran 5 balls and pretty much left perfect position for each next shot. Then after shooting the 6th ball, the cue ball rolled about 4 inches too far and I snookered myself and could not shoot in the 7th. (All of my opponents balls were still on the table.)

So that is my trouble right now. I'll do pretty good with most shots leaving good position for the next shot, but then there is that one shot where I mess up.

Or breaking out balls, I am not able to tell *exactly* where the cue ball will go after the shot, so I will miss when trying to break out clusters.

But I see this as a time thing. For now I'm having fun running balls and trying to leave good position for my next shots and trying to break out balls.

I think I just need a couple of years of experience before I become dangerous. I do have my moments every once and awhile where every single shot is perfect and I runout (with all my opponents balls still on table).
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Don't worry about that too much BB, everyone progresses in stages.

There are times, say league or local tourney matches where winning is important, and for now, the strategy you're using probably offers the best percentages.

But just keep in mind future progress, and a lot of that will come from making more outs from early on. To do this, it will help if you're practicing to go out from early on. It will help you plan the patterns better, and develop your confidence to finish from awkward positions.

I've seen a lot of players whose game has stayed at mediocre levels mainly because they keep playing their percentage game, rather than step up to playing the shots more advanced players would take on. So, to continue making fast improvements, be flexible. Play a bit of sit back and wait when it suits you but also keep practicing on trying to be a better early out maker. It might take you a year or two of hard work, but step by step you'll grow in skills and knowledge and find more table layouts that make it worthwhile to shoot for the early out in competition play.

You'll develop the judgement for when it's better to go for it, or to develop and wait in competition with experience. But keep working on going out early when you practice, so you build up more of the knowledge and skills required to achieve that.

Good luck!
 
Also there are still players that think it is dirty pool if you play safe or not shoot a duck if its the last ball before the tied up eight. They think you always have to try and make a ball. I ****ing hate these morons. I have played in some places that are like this. These are the same assholes that will miss a shot on purpose and act like they tried to make it but when you play a safe intentionly they blow up. I can't count how many times I've heard someone mumble "thats bullshit pool", or "that isn't REAL pool thats pussy pool". I'd like to grab one of these jackoffs by there throat just one time and tell them...ah screw it what good would it do to tell them anything. I'd just want to squeeze.:D
 
The nature of 8 ball changes as the ability of the players involved increases. For bangers 8 ball is something of a race played over many innings. As the players become more serious 8 ball can become a tactical game, making balls from time to time then playing safe to maintain control of the table. But for the more proficient players it is a run out game.

I am thinking that the guy Billy Bob was playing is probably a banger. Make the balls now because who knows if you will be able to pocket them later. Which is a terrible strategy for 8 ball, but anybody who dedicates themselves to the game will soon realize that.

Of course the other possibility is this guy is just too bold for his own good. If that is the case then I can relate. I have this unfailing belief that I can run out from anywhere. Unfortunately reality comes crashing in as I attempt some foolhardy shot in order to keep my run going.
 
Why rain on the man's play Brian? Have you seen him play? You haven't any clue as to what he can accomplish in 2 yrs, his dedication level, or what kind of raw talent he has.

Why not offer encouragement tempered with your dose of "reality" instead of telling him he doesn't know what he doesn't know. Every other responsed has been upbeat and positive with advice and encouragement until yours......

BB keep going the way you are man and don't let anyone tell you you "can't" do something.....Self doubt is powerful enough to destroy confidence, and outside negativity just reenforces that.

Sounds like we're close to the same skill level..... You know you have all the pieces to the puzzle you just have to put them together........

Great thread and advice here..

McCue Banger McCue
 
Billy_Bob said:
I'll be playing 8-ball for fun in a bar and it never ceases to amaze me. The 8 will be blocked (by my ball or balls) to where it can't be made directly into any pocket. And no easy breakout balls nearby.

But my opponent will shoot in all his balls anyway. While he is doing this, I'm saying to myself "What is he going to do when he gets to the 8? It will not go anywhere? So why is he shooting in his balls? Doesn't he see the 8 is tied up?"

So then he gets to the 8, shoots at it and breaks up the cluster, then I run out (as my opponent was kind enough to break out my balls for me). Note that prior to this, I intentionally missed a shot and left about 4 balls on the table, so he can't snooker me easily. Just about anywhere he leaves the cue ball, I will have a shot.

This happens again and again and again. I've even told some of these guys not to do this - don't runout until you can.

Lately when I have several balls tied up and things are not looking good for a runout, I'll shoot one of my balls to tie up the 8. Or block one of my opponent's balls from going into a corner pocket. Then I can take my sweet time, break out my balls and not worry about my opponent running out (unless they are good at banking). (The better players will quickly shoot a ball into mine so their ball is no longer tied up.)
Click to expand...

LOL, is all i can say about that, but i was going to post a thread on this same thing awhile back, all i play is eightball its my game, bank the eight last pocket my fathers game but i only play that game with my uncles and such, but i do the same thing in leagues or just playing with friends they do the same thing make every ball they can without playing defense and all they do is clear the table for me. What i do with clusters if i can make a shot with breaking up the eightball or my balls then i do if i can't then pluck one then play a safe keep doing this until either they break everything up or until they give me ball in hand to pluck another one then play a safe again or by pocketing the ball and breaking up clusters. But time to time if i leave it up to them to break things up sometimes they get lucky rolls and everything seperates good for them to run the table so i always take my chances though as for the percentage on that happening are about 30% to 70%.
 
I like it when Colin says... "you've got to shift your percentages of clearing the table on your first open shot after a successful break, or after your opponent's dry break to around 50%."

He is telling me what is possible, setting high goals for me, and telling me I can do it.

I like being around other players like this - players with a "can do" positive attitude. It rubs off on me, I set higher goals for myself, and my game improves.

I am being told that this is what is expected of myself. (Thanks Colin!)

It is the case of the "train that could"... I think I can, I know I can, etc.

And this has changed my thinking. I'm now thinking "runout" from the get go. Where are the balls which will not go? How can I break those balls out? I can't runout until I deal with those problem balls, etc. (In the past it was what balls can I make now, I'll leave the problems until later.)

Also I recently played a very good player who can shoot and *make* most of his kick shots. He told me I need to work on my kick shots. (Meaning I need to get to where I can shoot kick shots and *make* my balls.)

In the past I was told all I needed to do was hit my ball to keep my opponent from getting ball-in-hand. And this is the level I reached. This is what the other players expected of me.

Now I'm playing better players and they are telling me I need to do better than this. So I will readjust my goals/expectations.

Jimmy Reid was right on when he called one of his videos "No Time for Negative"...
 
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