8 ball rule question

[hang-the-9]

Neutral means you are allowed to hit that ball first. ACS rules say "the 8 ball is neutral on an open table" IE: the 8 may be hit first in a combination. I am not the one who determined the rules of the game in the OPs thread, the OP said his opponent told him he could not use they 8 in a carom because it was neutral. #1 players are allowed to use the 8 in a carom as long as they hit a legal ball first. #2 Neutral means that anybody may use the ball without penalty. Even if their particular bar rules say that you can not use the 8 in a carom he still called the 8 neutral. The 8 can not be neutral and an illegal (or foul) ball both at the same time. Please understand the reply that you are about to comment on and correct a person in before you reply.

I have never played where you can hit the 8 ball first even on an open table, but it looks like the BCA rules (which are a copy of the WPA rules) allow it. However, anything you pocket after that does not count so it's only really useful if you are playing safe. In either case, you can use the 8 ball in the middle of a combo or hit it in a carom at any time.

" Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. However, when the table is open and the 8 ball is the first ball contacted, no stripe or solid may be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn and any balls pocketed remain pocketed, and the incoming player addresses the balls with the table still open."

 

[pocket]

...snip snip snip...I spent many nights playing different rules depending on what my opponents wanted to play

...and I was the regular at the place...

Exactly why you never had a problem.

 

[AtLarge]

I have never played where you can hit the 8 ball first even on an open table, but it looks like the BCA rules (which are a copy of the WPA rules) allow it. ,,,

Current WPA 8-Ball rules:

• 3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups
  
  Before groups are determined, the table is said to be “open,” and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is “open”, any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.

 

[wrickyb]

Just a NOTE the BCA which is a Trade Association links to the World Standardized Rules the majority of BCA played is not BCAPL (BCA Players League) owned by CSI (Cue Sports International) which has a rule set that has some differences. Typically when someone says BCA rules they are referencing what is played in leagues and they are posed on the CSI site. CSI purchased the League system from BCA Trade Association many years ago and the Trade Association got out of Leagues.

Hope this helps when looking at rules.

 

[Fenwick]

"In a bar last night" was all I needed to know.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Neutral means you are allowed to hit that ball first. ACS rules say "the 8 ball is neutral on an open table" IE: the 8 may be hit first in a combination. I am not the one who determined the rules of the game in the OPs thread, the OP said his opponent told him he could not use they 8 in a carom because it was neutral. #1 players are allowed to use the 8 in a carom as long as they hit a legal ball first. #2 Neutral means that anybody may use the ball without penalty. Even if their particular bar rules say that you can not use the 8 in a carom he still called the 8 neutral. The 8 can not be neutral and an illegal (or foul) ball both at the same time. Please understand the reply that you are about to comment on and correct a person in before you reply.

You are wrong about the ACS rule. Here is their rule from their website:

3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups
Before groups are determined, the table is said to be “open,” and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is “open”, any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.

Perhaps you are playing in an ACS league that uses a different rule set.

 

[hang-the-9]

Just a NOTE the BCA which is a Trade Association links to the World Standardized Rules the majority of BCA played is not BCAPL (BCA Players League) owned by CSI (Cue Sports International) which has a rule set that has some differences. Typically when someone says BCA rules they are referencing what is played in leagues and they are posed on the CSI site. CSI purchased the League system from BCA Trade Association many years ago and the Trade Association got out of Leagues.

Hope this helps when looking at rules.

I knew there were BCA and BCAPL (the league) rules, BCA from what I could tell were a copy of the WPA rules almost word for word. BCAPL rules are modified for league.

Issue with rules for pool is that even players to play often in leagues are not aware of the official WPA rules for pro events, and even the pro and high level events like Joss and Predator modify rules for their tournaments (no jump cues, break rules, etc..).

I'm lucky if I find players that know even the APA rules which are a level or two over "bar" rules even thought they are not what I would pick to use.

 

[Cornerman]

In a bar last night,...

I argued ...


Am I right, or wrong?

So, I filtered out your question so that we can answer it pretty clearly and concisely.

 

[Cornerman]

I knew there were BCA and BCAPL (the league) rules, BCA from what I could tell were a copy of the WPA rules almost word for word. .

Well... it's opposite. The WPA adopted the BCA ruleset for the World Standarized Rules for their baseline when the WPA was formed. Since the WPA's formation, the BCA follows suit whenever the WSR change/modifies/evolves. Therefore, the BCA rules should look like WSR, word for word.

BCAPL also started out with the BCA rules since the BCAPL was part of the BCA. Now that the BCAPL is owned by Mark Griffin and CSI, that ruleset is independent from the BCA and WSR, just as much as the APA ruleset is independent.

Freddie <~~~ Initialisms R Us

 

[Cornerman]

I have never played where you can hit the 8 ball first even on an open table, but it looks like the BCA rules (which are a copy of the WPA rules) allow it. However, anything you pocket after that does not count so it's only really useful if you are playing safe. In either case, you can use the 8 ball in the middle of a combo or hit it in a carom at any time.

" Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. However, when the table is open and the 8 ball is the first ball contacted, no stripe or solid may be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn and any balls pocketed remain pocketed, and the incoming player addresses the balls with the table still open."

I played by these rules for many years, but I'm sure BCA and WSR did away with this rule in the early-to-mid 2000's.

 

[Ched]

"Bar rules" = depends on the bar, the person you're playing, and your horoscope.

 

[fastone371]

You are wrong about the ACS rule. Here is their rule from their website:

3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups
Before groups are determined, the table is said to be “open,” and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is “open”, any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.

Perhaps you are playing in an ACS league that uses a different rule set.

Its very possible and even likely that I am wrong but I have played in the Wisconsin State ACS tournament the last 2 years and they allowed you to use the 8 ball first on an open table combo. I found this so unusual that after the players meeting I went straight to the TD and confirmed what I thought he had said. That is the rule set that tournament was played by for some reason, I do not know of its origins.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Its very possible and even likely that I am wrong but I have played in the Wisconsin State ACS tournament the last 2 years and they allowed you to use the 8 ball first on an open table combo. I found this so unusual that after the players meeting I went straight to the TD and confirmed what I thought he had said. That is the rule set that tournament was played by for some reason, I do not know of its origins.

I would definitely point out to your TD that your league is not using the same rules that the ACS uses in Vegas.

 

[JC]

Be careful because in some places call shot and call pocket are two different things. In call pocket it doesn't matter how the ball gets to the hole as long it was done with a legal hit on your object ball.
Call shot to some it means that you need to declare kisses and banks. I've seen arguments on this issue.

When someone informs me that the rules require calling shots with a "kiss" or "clean" the only thing I know for certain is that I'm going to win most of the games we play.

JC