8-Ball rules clarification - Calling Bob Jewett!

dzcues

dzcues

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In our local leagues (both BCA & VNEA) a situation has come up that begs for a definitive rule clarification in the game of 8-Ball:

A shooter approaches an open table. He calls a safety and pockets a ball. He argues that, with this shot, he has also established his selection of stripes or solids.

Is he correct?
 
I'm not Bob, but the way I see it - the normal play-a-safe, make-a-ball situation is basically, two separate things - you still have to make a legal hit. The difference is regardless of making the ball, calling safe means you don't shoot again.

So I'd think that would still apply even with an open table - you're making a legal hit (any ball but the 8, since it's open) and you're sinking a ball, without a foul, establishing your suit. The fact that a safety was called would simply mean the player doesn't shoot again.

That's just my interpretation. *shrug*

That's sneaky though - definitely shows creative thinking :D I'll have to remember that, if indeed it's determined that it's a legit tactic.
 
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dzcues said:
A shooter approaches an open table. He calls a safety and pockets a ball. He argues that, with this shot, he has also established his selection of stripes or solids.

Is he correct?
Click to expand...

I know guys who would flip you off if you tried to do this to them.
 
4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

Calling a Safe is NOT calling an object ball.

No group is claimed in your scenerio.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

Calling a Safe is NOT calling an object ball.

No group is claimed in your scenerio.
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Well, there you go! That makes sense taking the call-the-shot issue into account.
 
the only way the guy should be able to establish what balls he is if he was to continue shooting. in this case he most cleary isnt (his inning ended with the pocketing of a ball in a noncalled pocket) and thus the table would remain open. i dont have written proof in front of me, but if what i said happens to not be correct then they need to change the rule.
 
BCA & VNEA are different on this situation. In the VNEA I believe that you can pocket a ball and call safe and still have that group......randyg
 
dzcues said:
In our local leagues (both BCA & VNEA) a situation has come up that begs for a definitive rule clarification in the game of 8-Ball:

A shooter approaches an open table. He calls a safety and pockets a ball. He argues that, with this shot, he has also established his selection of stripes or solids.

Is he correct?
Click to expand...
Not under BCA/WPA as noted by others. The VNEA should consider changing their rules, if they are different on this point.
 
Checking the VNEA rules it states,

"SAFETY" SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a "safety" to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

BCA Rules state the same thing
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
Rule 4.12
 
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Fore Rail said:
Checking the VNEA rules it states,

"SAFETY" SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a "safety" to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

BCA Rules state the same thing
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
Rule 4.12
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I"m not sure what you're trying to say, but just in case there's confusion...

A safety is a legal shot. But, a ball pocketed when a player calls a safety is not a legally pocketed ball. For the ball pocketed to be legally pocketed, it must be called into that pocket. That's per the definition of "illegally pocketed ball."

The confusion comes from the fact that although a safety is legal, the requirements for "legally pocketing a ball" is something completely different.

The pertinent rule is 4.10 in BCA (Tom in Cincy's post) combined with this:

4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.


Fred
 
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4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.


Fred,

I would think the above is in reference to playing a safety by legally hitting one of your object balls either driving it to the rail or having the cue ball hitting the rail(w/o the intention of making a ball) & pocketing one of your object balls in the process.
 
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Fore Rail said:
4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.


Fred,

I would think the above is in reference to playing a safety by legally hitting one of your object balls either driving it to the rail or having the cue ball hitting the rail & pocketing one of your object balls in the process.
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Again, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. As a former BCA Referee, I'm saying that these two rules (4.10 and 4.16) in conjunction are exactly the references to answer the original poster's question.

Fred
 
Fred,

Two examples

1) In VNEA if I point out that I am going to pocket my object ball in one of the 6 pockets on the pool table and call "safety" I am credited for pocketing that ball & I give up the table to my opponent. All done in a legal manner.

2) Now if I call safe without intending on calling & pocketing a ball & in the process inadvertently pocket one of my object group I do not get to continue shooting being that was an illegally pocketed ball.

I do not see the difference (referencing the 1st example) between the practice during the game or at the start with an open table.

All bodies of pool should joint the United States Golf Association by not only producing rules, but decisions on those rules as well.
 
Cornerman said:
Again, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. As a former BCA Referee, I'm saying that these two rules (4.10 and 4.16) in conjunction are exactly the references to answer the original poster's question.

Fred
Click to expand...

I'm saying that rule 4.10, 4.11 & 4.12 used in conjunction answer the original poster's question. :)
 
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This same subject was discussed in a long thread on CCB several months ago. I think Bob participated along with several others

The conclusion was that you cannot call the safety, make the ball, give up the table and then still have those balls as a group. Table remains open.

The reasoning, as I recall, lay in the rules quoted above. Put succinctly, as I recall, the ball is illegally pocketed because you called a safety before the shot and you cannot establish your ball group on a illegally pocketed ball.

Actually, I remember the result better than the reasoning.
 
So what I am getting from this discussion is even though a "safety" shot is defined as a legal shot, it is not legal on an open table after the break?

Even if the player calls his ball & pocket & then calls "safety."
 
Fore Rail said:
So what I am getting from this discussion is even though a "safety" shot is defined as a legal shot, it is not legal on an open table after the break?

Even if the player calls his ball & pocket & then calls "safety."
Click to expand...

What I understood was that a pocket can be called or a safety can be called. Calling a safety and pocketing a ball is not a foul because it is a legal shot. A numbered ball makes contact with the rail or is pocketed. So it's not a foul. But it is also not a legally pocketed ball, because a safety was called instead of a pocket.

Good Rolls,
Rasta
 
What genius makes the first makeable ball then calls it safe?
How can he play safe on the first ball?
Kinda dumb.
Really, when you shoot a ball to a pocket and call safe, it's a formality b/c you can call the wrong pocket. Meanine that ball doesn't count but is not a foul.
The groups have not been determined b/c no ball was pocketed on the called pocket.
 
Fore Rail said:
So what I am getting from this discussion is even though a "safety" shot is defined as a legal shot, it is not legal on an open table after the break?

Even if the player calls his ball & pocket & then calls "safety."
Click to expand...

Correct. As near as I could understand before, and the logic seems a little convoluted ,it is a little of a "chicken and egg" situation. You cannot call "your" ball and pocket because it is not "your" ball until after it goes in on a called shot, but you must call the safety before you shoot, so that overrides the call of the ball and the pocket.

In short, you can call safe and make the shot and it is not a foul, but the table remains open with the balls in position.

I am not defending the rule, but that is my understanding of it.
 
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