8-ball rules question

swest

swest

goldmember
Silver Member
Had a minor controversy in TAP league play last night.

Player A is on the 8-ball. It is Player B's turn, and he plays an effective defense. Player A comes to the table and decides to play an intentional foul (but doesn't put the cue ball in a pocket or off the table), to give Player B ball-in-hand.

Player B says, "You didn't hit the 8-ball, that's loss of game."

Player A, of course, says something like, "No, in the TAP rules, that's just an ordinary foul, and now you have ball-in-hand."

It went back and forth, while Player B groused about his "tournament" experience, and, "I wouldn't have played it like that if...", and so forth.

Eventually, it became clear to Player B that he wasn't going to win the argument, so play resumed.

Now to my question: I know that TAP, BCA, WPBA, APA 8-ball rules all specify that not making a legal hit on the 8-ball is not loss of game (sorry for the double negative), but I'm wondering, apart from the more informal rule sets (like Bar rules, or the like), are there any organized leagues or other associations that use a rule set that includes that criterion as a loss-of-game?

Thanks.

I'll take my answer off-the-air...
 
Never heard of not hitting the 8 being a loss of game in any "real" rules.

If the second player actually had this tournament experience, they'd know that.
 
swest said:
Had a minor controversy in TAP league play last night.

Player A is on the 8-ball. It is Player B's turn, and he plays an effective defense. Player A comes to the table and decides to play an intentional foul (but doesn't put the cue ball in a pocket or off the table), to give Player B ball-in-hand.

Player B says, "You didn't hit the 8-ball, that's loss of game."

Player A, of course, says something like, "No, in the TAP rules, that's just an ordinary foul, and now you have ball-in-hand."

It went back and forth, while Player B groused about his "tournament" experience, and, "I wouldn't have played it like that if...", and so forth.

Eventually, it became clear to Player B that he wasn't going to win the argument, so play resumed.

Now to my question: I know that TAP, BCA, WPBA, APA 8-ball rules all specify that not making a legal hit on the 8-ball is not loss of game (sorry for the double negative), but I'm wondering, apart from the more informal rule sets (like Bar rules, or the like), are there any organized leagues or other associations that use a rule set that includes that criterion as a loss-of-game?

Thanks.

I'll take my answer off-the-air...
Click to expand...

Nope, but it is in the rules that a "scratch" while "on the 8-ball" is a loss of game. There is a set of rules on what constitutes a scratch. Player B should have opened the rule book and it would have been the end of that.
 
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DAVE_M said:
Nope, but it is in the rules that a foul while "on the 8-ball" is a loss of game. There is a set of what constitutes a foul. Player B should have opened the rule book and it would have been the end of that.
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No, the rules state that a scratch on the 8 is a loss of game. A scratch is defined as cue ball into a pocket or off the table. Maybe it's you who needs to read the rules.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
No, the rules state that a scratch on the 8 is a loss of game. A scratch is defined as cue ball into a pocket or off the table. Maybe it's you who needs to read the rules.
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My mistake. A scratch is a foul, but you only lose if you "scratch" on the 8. I can see how the wording in the rule book will confuse people, such as myself.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
No, the rules state that a scratch on the 8 is a loss of game. A scratch is defined as cue ball into a pocket or off the table. Maybe it's you who needs to read the rules.
Click to expand...

Many people use "scratch" and "foul" as interchangeable terms in many situations, even among very good players. There was another post recently about the same thing where this whole thing was discussed.

I often say someone scratched where someone fails to hit a legal ball even when the cueball does not fall into a pocket. That's why the rulebook would need to define what a "scratch" is vs a regular foul or simply say that if the cueball stays on the table during a bad hit, it's not a loss.
 
I think the actual ruling is it would be loss of game if the shooter fouls while pocketing the 8 ball. It also is a loss, in most leagues, if you scratch while shooting the 8 ball. In Valley Rules, if you scratch or foul while shooting the 8 ball, you only lose if you also pocket the 8 ball. In APA, if you scratch while shooting the 8 ball, it is a loss whether the 8 ball is pocketed or not.
 
In what seems like a million bars I'v played in only one of them played Eight Ball with the hard eight rule. "If your last ball on the table is the eight and you don't hit it you lose" In that bar it was a trap rule, not posted on the wall, they informed you after you failed to make contact that you had lost the game. They, your opponent the bartender and any regulars hanging around.

Dale
 
DAVE_M said:
My mistake. A scratch is a foul, but you only lose if you "scratch" on the 8. I can see how the wording in the rule book will confuse people, such as myself.
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hang-the-9 said:
Many people use "scratch" and "foul" as interchangeable terms in many situations, even among very good players. There was another post recently about the same thing where this whole thing was discussed.

I often say someone scratched where someone fails to hit a legal ball even when the cueball does not fall into a pocket. That's why the rulebook would need to define what a "scratch" is vs a regular foul or simply say that if the cueball stays on the table during a bad hit, it's not a loss.
Click to expand...

I see neither of you bothered to actually read the rules like I did. That's why I wrote the way I did. But I guess it's too much to ask for someone to spend 5 minutes reading when they aren't sure themselves.
 
DAVE_M said:
Nope, but it is in the rules that a "scratch" while "on the 8-ball" is a loss of game. There is a set of rules on what constitutes a scratch. Player B should have opened the rule book and it would have been the end of that.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's a scratch... it would be a foul like double tapping the cue ball giving you ball in hand. That's a good question though. I decided long ago that if I was going to intentionally foul I would just roll the ball to a safe area so as not to deal with this situation. Some leagues I've played in consider picking up the cue ball and handing it to your opponent to be unsportsman like and a loss of game.

After thinking about it I guess if a scratch is a loss of game picking the ball could be considered a scratch like jumping the ball off the table. Here it would not be a loss in acs or bca. They play a scratch on the 8 is only a loss if you also pocketed the 8.
 
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TheNewSharkster said:
No need to act douchy about it
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So it's too much to ask people to make sure that when they speak in absolutes that they check their information? It took me less than 5 minutes to find the rules that applied. It took me that long because I don't play in a TAP league, so I had to go to their website. The rules and expressions concerning TAP are there. Maybe next time I won't comment and let misinformation be told.
 
The Tavern League I play in played call everything and you had to hit the eight ball or it was a loss. That was about 30 years ago and the rules have been changed to slop pool to get away from arguments. You still must call your shot but it can go off any ball without calling it that way. I must say it works but I would rather play call everything (kiss's, combo's). No more arguments or fights. :)
 
BRussell said:
Hey you're on the internet, remember?

Stupid rule, by the way. Why should a scratch but not another type of foul constitute a loss?
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Because if you are on the 8 and miss, the other guy can win simply by playing a safe on you. All you need to do is miss the kick and you lost.

In many rules, even if you scratch, but the 8 stays up, you don't lose. So you can shoot the 8, miss it, and scratch, but it's not a loss, just ball in hand for the other guy.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Because if you are on the 8 and miss, the other guy can win simply by playing a safe on you. All you need to do is miss the kick and you lost.

In many rules, even if you scratch, but the 8 stays up, you don't lose. So you can shoot the 8, miss it, and scratch, but it's not a loss, just ball in hand for the other guy.
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That's the way I like it. In my league, if you scratch on the 8 (whether you pocket it or not) you lose the game. I had a difficult kick on the 8 last week, a kick that could result in a scratch fairly easily.

Before I attempted it I went to one of the league "officials" and asked him "If I scratch on the 8, but DO NOT pocket it, is it a loss of game?" He looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead and said "Of course you'd lose...you scratched on the 8!"

Some people have no idea about "real" rules.
 
rjb1168 said:
The Tavern League I play in played call everything and you had to hit the eight ball or it was a loss. That was about 30 years ago and the rules have been changed to slop pool to get away from arguments. You still must call your shot but it can go off any ball without calling it that way. I must say it works but I would rather play call everything (kiss's, combo's). No more arguments or fights. :)
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Calling the pocket IS call shot - not calling kisses, rail rubs, jaw and drops, and phases
of the moon is most certainly not slop.

World Straight Pool/14.1 Championship - call ball and pocket.

One Pocket - a game that requires a bit of skill and sophistication -
no calling of anything.

Snooker - how many threads gushing about Snooker and the gazillions of $s involved?
All they "call" (Nominate is the proper term) is which ball they are playing when "on"
the Colors.

Works for me.

Dale
 
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Hits 'em Hard said:
So it's too much to ask people to make sure that when they speak in absolutes that they check their information? It took me less than 5 minutes to find the rules that applied. It took me that long because I don't play in a TAP league, so I had to go to their website. The rules and expressions concerning TAP are there. Maybe next time I won't comment and let misinformation be told.
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You not commenting would be a good start
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
So it's too much to ask people to make sure that when they speak in absolutes that they check their information? It took me less than 5 minutes to find the rules that applied. It took me that long because I don't play in a TAP league, so I had to go to their website. The rules and expressions concerning TAP are there. Maybe next time I won't comment and let misinformation be told.
Click to expand...

it's not what you said but how you said. Something that you are certainly not in the minority of understanding on the internet .
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
So it's too much to ask people to make sure that when they speak in absolutes that they check their information? It took me less than 5 minutes to find the rules that applied. It took me that long because I don't play in a TAP league, so I had to go to their website. The rules and expressions concerning TAP are there. Maybe next time I won't comment and let misinformation be told.
Click to expand...

Thanks for telling me to go **** myself on the 'User CP'. Obviously you have serious issues you need to work out.
 
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