8 ball rules

[lady9ball]

The table is open and it's a mess. No groups have an advantage. Both players play safe multiple times without pocketing a ball. After about 4 innings each, player 1 says "safe" and pockets a stripe. Player 2 comes to the table, has a clear shot at a stripe, and that group now has a slight advantage. Instinctively, do you think player 2 can shoot the stripe legally?

If you know that VNEA rules are being used, does your answer change?

 

[thehoneybadger]

The table is open and it's a mess. No groups have an advantage. Both players play safe multiple times without pocketing a ball. After about 4 innings each, player 1 says "safe" and pockets a stripe. Player 2 comes to the table, has a clear shot at a stripe, and that group now has a slight advantage. Instinctively, do you think player 2 can shoot the stripe legally?

If you know that VNEA rules are being used, does your answer change?

yes........

 

[ChicagoJoe]

Yes, the pocketed stripe was not called.

 

[lady9ball]

The stripe was shot straight into a pocket. No bank, no carom, clearly intentional. Do you still say yes?

 

[fastone371]

If shooter called striped ball and pocket the shooter has stripes, calling the safe just meant he was not going to shoot again. This would be BCAPL rules anyway.

 

[pocket]

The stripe was shot straight into a pocket. No bank, no carom, clearly intentional. Do you still say yes?

When the table is open, the "safe" call voids owning the solid or stripe and the table is still considered open.

 

[lady9ball]

When the table is open, the "safe" call voids owning the solid or stripe and the table is still considered open.

What if they said "12 ball in the corner" ... pause... "safe". Would that change anything?

 

[lady9ball]

If shooter called striped ball and pocket the shooter has stripes, calling the safe just meant he was not going to shoot again. This would be BCAPL rules anyway.

What if it was an obvious shot and NOT called?

 

[KRJ]

What if they said "12 ball in the corner" ... pause... "safe". Would that change anything?

I'd say no. He called the 12, and then changed his mind, and declared a safety. sometimes I call a safety, look again, and then say, 6 ball. I'm not still considered to be playing a safety, am I ?

 

[lady9ball]

I'd say no. He called the 12, and then changed his mind, and declared a safety. sometimes I call a safety, look again, and then say, 6 ball. I'm not still considered to be playing a safety, am I ?

Okay, how about "I'm playing safe and shooting the 12 in the corner".

I'm trying to prove a point about a bad rule. I have yet to see the documentation, but according to the VNEA rules, you can establish your balls AND play safe in the same shot. And apparently, if it's an obvious shot, you don't have to call the ball or pocket at all.

 

[thehoneybadger]

Okay, how about "I'm playing safe and shooting the 12 in the corner".

I'm trying to prove a point about a bad rule. I have yet to see the documentation, but according to the VNEA rules, you can establish your balls AND play safe in the same shot. And apparently, if it's an obvious shot, you don't have to call the ball or pocket at all.

You can't call a ball/pocket and safe at the same time. it's one or the other, at which point it would be open still if they played a safe on an open table and a ball dropped.

 

[lady9ball]

You can't call a ball/pocket and safe at the same time. it's one or the other, at which point it would be open still if they played a safe on an open table and a ball dropped.

Yep, I agree. But apparently the rules say otherwise.

If someone has the VNEA rule changes, I believe this was added in 2013. I'm really interested to see how it's worded.

 

[nateobot]

Yep, I agree. But apparently the rules say otherwise.



If someone has the VNEA rule changes, I believe this was added in 2013. I'm really interested to see how it's worded.

I'd be shocked if they don't have an up-to-date online version of their rules.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Don't know about VNEA but under BCAPL rules the table is definitely open:

2-6 Establishing Groups
1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the
break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent
is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety. (AR p. 102)

 

[ctyhntr]

I don't participate or play VNEA, but here are the rules that I found online.
http://www.vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx

For the OP's situation, VNEA rules C, E and G appears to address this.

C. OPEN TABLE
..The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

E. PLAY
1. If a shooter inadvertently pockets his opponents ball, it remains down, however, if the shooter does not legally pocket one of his own group, he loses his turn.

2. Each player continues to shoot so long as he legally pockets any of his object balls (Exception: calling a safety). Should a player fail to pocket his designated group ball, he shall lose his turn.

G. LEGAL SHOTS

On all shots (exception: page 11C and on the break), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket any group ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any other ball to contact a rail.
* (There are two groups of balls: stripes and solids)

...

“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

Okay, how about "I'm playing safe and shooting the 12 in the corner".

I'm trying to prove a point about a bad rule. I have yet to see the documentation, but according to the VNEA rules, you can establish your balls AND play safe in the same shot. And apparently, if it's an obvious shot, you don't have to call the ball or pocket at all.

 

[pocket]

Don't know about VNEA but under BCAPL rules the table is definitely open:

VNEA online rules do not specifically allow this shot. Some rule sets vary widely but the logic is you are not calling a pocket when playing a safe, therefore they cannot claim to have taken stripes or solids on an open table on a safe.

 

[lady9ball]

I was player 2, I shot a stripe, and after much debate, I was ruled against and player 1 was given BIH.

I don't think the excerpts from sections c and g clearly say one way or the other, but I'm told it is in writing somewhere.

 

[pocket]

I was player 2, I shot a stripe, and after much debate, I was ruled against and player 1 was given BIH.

I don't think the excerpts from sections c and g clearly say one way or the other, but I'm told it is in writing somewhere.

Why on earth would p1 get bih? What am I missing?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Why on earth would p1 get bih? What am I missing?

The first player claimed that he could call a safe, shoot a ball (stripe) in and claim that group as his.

It looks like the VNEA needs to add a phrase like:

If you call a shot you may not call a safety on the same shot.​

I didn't notice anything in the quoted rules that is clear on this specific point.

 

[tatcat2000]

As far as VNEA goes, this subject was covered in depth in a prior thread. Please pay particular attention to the several VNEA officials that reply, in addition to my post #20. Pretty much everything you would want to know, and a fair bit that you probably don't want to know, is covered.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880&highlight=vnea

The result is that in VNEA a group may be claimed on a safety. Don't like it? Go back and re-read the thread, especially post 20, again. Until VNEA changes the rules, the thread is pretty definitive.

Buddy