8 Ball safe question

frigopie said:
never, never, never, and I say never call safety shooting to the 8... think about it, it makes no sense. You always have to call the pocket with most posibilities, even if you are not trying to pocket it.
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I like this advise. I was actually in a tournament a zillion years ago, and my opponents ball was blocking the corner pocket. And there was zero chances that you could follow the 8-ball in afterwards. I actually did call safe. And my opponents said to me, "you might as well call something."

So I did call a pocket, (the cross table corner pocket) and it did go in by some miracle (kissed nicely off his object ball and went across the width of table and happily into the called pocket), and I won, and I collected the money, and I learned a lesson: never give your opponent free good advise, else he will beat you with it. LOL!!!

Freddie <~~~ but seriously, no reason to call safe in this situation
 
Yes, I agree I always call something with the eight even if there's no chance it would go.
I think what I was trying to say was there wasn't any reason to call safe on the eight it just is a meaningless gesture.
 
BobTfromIL said:
What's the point of calling safe? you only call safe when you want to sink one of
your balls and not shoot again, right?
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No you should call safe no matter what. If you accidentally drop a ball someone could make you continue shooting
 
trob said:
No you should call safe no matter what. If you accidentally drop a ball someone could make you continue shooting
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We play basically BCAPL rules, not aware of a situation were if you accidentally make a ball someone could make you keep shooting. In this case all you had left was the eight so any ball made would be your opponents. We play call ball and pocket, and have had many situations were an opponents ball has been made on purpose, it's never called of course and ball in hand follows.
 
Lots of good observations here.

oneballeddie said:
I think you are basically right. In my opinion you should call safe as a courtesy to your opponent in every case when you are playing safe. Also if you accidentally pocket a ball playing safe having not announced a safety it could lead to an argument.
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This ^^^^^^^...

BobTfromIL said:
We play basically BCAPL rules, not aware of a situation were if you accidentally make a ball someone could make you keep shooting.
Click to expand...

Not quite so much this ^^^. One would like to think it can't happen, but it does.

The matter is actually addressed in the BCAPL rules, since there is the occasional situation where a ball that is unintentionally pocketed could be construed by an opponent to be an obvious ball. Then its an argument off and running. That is also the basis of the advice residing in the BCAPL Applied Rulings, which is to always call a safety when attempting to discontinue your turn, regardless of whether you are attempting to pocket a ball.

A brief excerpt from the BCAPL Applied Rules for "Safety":

"...there is a simple way you can protect yourself from any possible detrimental effects of the safety rules: always call a safety if you do not want to shoot again, and always communicate your intentions clearly and verbally to your opponent. While it is not required by the rules to call a safety if you are playing defensively and not attempting to pocket a ball, and while it is true that many simple defensive shots are not actually "safety" shots as defined by the rules, there is no prohibition against declaring a safety even if you do not intend to pocket a ball. Then, if you do accidentally pocket a ball, there will be no dispute."

frigopie said:
never, never, never, and I say never call safety shooting to the 8... think about it, it makes no sense.
Click to expand...
This too ^^^^^^.

Just an observation that the only problem with this one is that so many people are in the habit of calling a safety when playing simple defense that they may not think about the fact that they are shooting the 8 and they just call the safety out of reflex. Hence the following warning, excerpted from BCAPL Applied Ruling 2.8:

If following the advice in the Applied Ruling for “Safety,” care should be taken when shooting the 8-ball. In 8-ball, any ball pocketed on a safety, whether intentional or not, is defined as an illegally pocketed ball. If you call a safety while shooting the 8-ball and it is pocketed it is a loss of game under Rule 2-10-a.

The entire text of the Applied Rulings for "Safety" and Rule 2.8 can be found on pages 71 and 97 at http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

Buddy Eick
CSI National Head Referee
CSI Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
bca_referee@yahoo.com

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
 
tatcat2000 said:
Lots of good observations here.


This ^^^^^^^...



Not quite so much this ^^^. One would like to think it can't happen, but it does.

The matter is actually addressed in the BCAPL rules, since there is the occasional situation where a ball that is unintentionally pocketed could be construed by an opponent to be an obvious ball. Then its an argument off and running. That is also the basis of the advice residing in the BCAPL Applied Rulings, which is to always call a safety when attempting to discontinue your turn, regardless of whether you are attempting to pocket a ball.

A brief excerpt from the BCAPL Applied Rules for "Safety":

"...there is a simple way you can protect yourself from any possible detrimental effects of the safety rules: always call a safety if you do not want to shoot again, and always communicate your intentions clearly and verbally to your opponent. While it is not required by the rules to call a safety if you are playing defensively and not attempting to pocket a ball, and while it is true that many simple defensive shots are not actually "safety" shots as defined by the rules, there is no prohibition against declaring a safety even if you do not intend to pocket a ball. Then, if you do accidentally pocket a ball, there will be no dispute."


This too ^^^^^^.

Just an observation that the only problem with this one is that so many people are in the habit of calling a safety when playing simple defense that they may not think about the fact that they are shooting the 8 and they just call the safety out of reflex. Hence the following warning, excerpted from BCAPL Applied Ruling 2.8:

If following the advice in the Applied Ruling for “Safety,” care should be taken when shooting the 8-ball. In 8-ball, any ball pocketed on a safety, whether intentional or not, is defined as an illegally pocketed ball. If you call a safety while shooting the 8-ball and it is pocketed it is a loss of game under Rule 2-10-a.

The entire text of the Applied Rulings for "Safety" and Rule 2.8 can be found on pages 71 and 97 at http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

Buddy Eick
CSI National Head Referee
CSI Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
bca_referee@yahoo.com

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
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I think we have to remember that the situation is specifically that he's shooting the. 8-ball. There is no situation where an accidentally pocketed ball can be associated with anything else, in this situation.

That is to say, I'd hate for the original poster to read your post and somehow thinks it all applies to his shot. He lost.
 
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Cornerman said:
I think we have to remember that the situation is specifically that he's shooting the. 8-ball. There is no situation where an accidentally pocketed ball can be associated with anything else, in this situation.

That is to say, I'd hate for the original poster to read your post and somehow thinks it all applies to his shot. He lost.
Click to expand...

I did not want to confuse so I included the quotes. You are correct, OP situation is always a loss.
 
Not quite so much this ^^^. One would like to think it can't happen, but it does.

The matter is actually addressed in the BCAPL rules, since there is the occasional situation where a ball that is unintentionally pocketed could be construed by an opponent to be an obvious ball. Then its an argument off and running. That is also the basis of the advice residing in the BCAPL Applied Rulings, which is to always call a safety when attempting to discontinue your turn, regardless of whether you are attempting to pocket a ball.

But in this situation the only ball the shooter had was the 8, how can any other ball be considered an obvious ball if it's not yours? When I said we basically play BCAPL rules I didn't mean to imply that we use all the rules. We aren't playing in a league
 
I lived in Arlington VA during the late sixties and a lot of locals played 1 and 15. It is like darts, you have to qualify to begin the game. One guy sticks the 1 in the left middle pocket and he shoots the solids as ordinary eight ball with ordinary rules to the finish. The other guy has to make the 15 in the right side pocket before he can shoot the rest of the stripes. We played on regular tables and if you made one of your balls before the opening 1 or 15 they got spotted. It would't work too well on a barbox, since all balls made stay down. If you made a different ball it has to stay down and you end your turn. The end of game would'nt matter as stated before, Eight goes down in wrong pocket, you lose.
 
BobTfromIL said:
But in this situation the only ball the shooter had was the 8, how can any other ball be considered an obvious ball if it's not yours? When I said we basically play BCAPL rules I didn't mean to imply that we use all the rules. We aren't playing in a league
Click to expand...

Again,I acknowledge that my whole post does not apply in the exact OP situation. The Applied Ruling for 2.8 does. I was just expanding a little to cover the entire subject, which I thought was relevant.
 
i always advise people to ALWAYS call a pocket on the 8 ball. even if you are playing safety, still go ahead and call a pocket, just in case.
 
BobTfromIL said:
We play basically BCAPL rules, not aware of a situation were if you accidentally make a ball someone could make you keep shooting. In this case all you had left was the eight so any ball made would be your opponents. We play call ball and pocket, and have had many situations were an opponents ball has been made on purpose, it's never called of course and ball in hand follows.
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example.. your playing safe and the ball is going to be banking toward the side pocket. you don't call safe and your not trying to make the ball but it happens to go in. In our leagues we play gentlemen rules for calling shots. Meaning you don't have to call every shot. your opponent could say your banking the ball towards that pocket. how does he know you weren't playing safe?
But yes if I'm playing safe on the 8 ball I will call a pocket just in case lol ya never know.
 
Cornerman said:
I read what you're saying, but the rules did not evolve based on bar box play. "The 8-ball in the wrong hole" rule also predates bar boxes.

Now if we were talking about "all balls stay down" being related to bar box, you'd have a pretty good argument although the Texas Express guys might beg to differ.

But specifically to "loss on the 8-ball if it goes into the wrong pocket" has been a written rule in 8-ball since at least 1948. That had nothing to do with future bar room play.



Excerpt from the 1948 8-ball Rules (which included the 1 & 15 requirements)

"Since a player is required to call his shot when playing for the 8-ball, he loses
the game if the 8-ball drops into a pocket not designated on the call. "


Freddie <~~~ Let's not change history
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OK, OK.... allow me to re-rephrase. When I think of 8 ball... I associate it with little mickey mouse bar tables. You can't get your balls back on these mickey mouse tables, so if you are playing called shot loosing is you only choice. That's how I remember it personally.

Better?:smile:
 
3andstop said:
OK, OK.... allow me to re-rephrase. When I think of 8 ball... I associate it with little mickey mouse bar tables. You can't get your balls back on these mickey mouse tables, so if you are playing called shot loosing is you only choice. That's how I remember it personally.

Better?:smile:
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I know it reads like I don't want to let this go, but... The OP is playing 1&15. If you can't spot object balls on a table, then you're not going to play 1&15 on that table. Bar boxes without the ability to spot have no business in this particular thread.
 
Cornerman said:
I know it reads like I don't want to let this go, but... The OP is playing 1&15. If you can't spot object balls on a table, then you're not going to play 1&15 on that table. Bar boxes without the ability to spot have no business in this particular thread.
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Oh.. ok, I gotcha. I better start a thread entitled, "what the hell is 1 & 15". Never heard of the game.

If I had to guess low has to play the 8 where the one got pocketed, and high where the 15 got pocketed. But that can't be right because there is still no reason to spot the 1 or 15.

I surrender. I'll stick to straight pool or 1 hole.
 
3andstop said:
Oh.. ok, I gotcha. I better start a thread entitled, "what the hell is 1 & 15". Never heard of the game.

If I had to guess low has to play the 8 where the one got pocketed, and high where the 15 got pocketed. But that can't be right because there is still no reason to spot the 1 or 15.

I surrender. I'll stick to straight pool or 1 hole.
Click to expand...
LOL!! 1 & 15 is the old-school way to play 8-ball. The stipulation is that the 1-ball must go in the side pocket and the 15-ball has to go into the other side pocket. The old school rules and the 1948 rules allows the shooter to continue shooting even if the 15-ball (for example) doesn't go into the side pocket. But, the ball must spot back up immediately on the foot spot before the player continues.

So a common strategy is to pocket the 15-ball (for example) and play shape such that when the 15-ball is spotted on the foot spot, the player can shoot it into his side pocket.

There are variations of 1&15. For example, some players don't let the shooter continue if they pocket their ball (1 or 15) in the wrong pocket. The rules are often called silly possessive names like Alabama 8-ball, Senior Center 8-ball, Old Charlie's Rules, etc. I call them the 1948 rules because that's the first BCA printing of 8-ball rules and the 1&15 stipulation is there.

Here's an unofficial copy of the 1948 8-ball (1&15) Rules:

http://www.okwinners.com/uploads/1948BCA8ballrules.pdf

Freddie <~~~ and now you know, the rest of the story
 
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Cornerman said:
LOL!! 1 & 15 is the old-school way to play 8-ball. The stipulation is that the 1-ball must go in the side pocket and the 15-ball has to go into the other side pocket. The old school rules and the 1948 rules allows the shooter to continue shooting even if the 15-ball (for example) doesn't go into the side pocket. But, the ball must spot back up immediately on the foot spot before the player continues.

So a common strategy is to pocket the 15-ball (for example) and play shape such that when the 15-ball is spotted on the foot spot, the player can shoot it into his side pocket.

There are variations of 1&15. For example, some players don't let the shooter continue if they pocket their ball (1 or 15) in the wrong pocket. The rules are often called silly possessive names like Alabama 8-ball, Senior Center 8-ball, Old Charlie's Rules, etc. I call them the 1948 rules because that's the first BCA printing of 8-ball rules and the 1&15 stipulation is there.

Here's an unofficial copy of the 1948 8-ball (1&15) Rules:

http://www.okwinners.com/uploads/1948BCA8ballrules.pdf

Freddie <~~~ and now you know, the rest of the story
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link cornerman. I'm going to print it and bring it to the senior center.

Some guys get a little crazy hiding whity and knocking their opponent's ball out of reach of the pocket. It passes the time and it has helped me learn position and banking for regular 8 ball in my APA league matches.
 
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