8-Ball Strategy: After the Break, Can't go out?

[Colin Colenso]

HI Colin -

I win many tournaments playing this way,

The way I see it, if you cannot get out , the more balls on the table of your kind (stripes or solids) the better!

therefore you have to look at it percentage wise, after the break ask yourself? can I run this rack out? I will attempt it if my chances are over 60% not that I do the math, but depending on how feel about it.

If I cant I want to make sure my opponent cant run it out,

so....

after the break I like to think of what I want stipes or solids..

then I go after that kind, and then I think of if I can take ball in hand and play safe where would I set the cue ball, then I try to get to that place in as little moves as possible, if I dont get there I will play some kind of defensive shot, leave the them long (if not a very good player) or leave them in some kind of undesireable position.


I see so many players get themselves into situation where they have 2 or 3 balls left and the odds of them getting out is like 3 or 4%, why accept those odds?? I even see it from top players in my state, and I have even beeaten top players in my state by playing defensive



now if both stripes and solids are bad, I would not hit any in and just play safe, or even give my opponent a shot on a ball knowing they are not going to get out over 60% of the time, but guess what, as soon as they shoot a ball in, their odds on the match just went down because now I have 7 stripes out to thier 6 solids, the more they end up hitting in the more my oddds go up, and if they get down to 3 to 4 balls and have not getten out , its almost a sure win for the player with 7 stripes out, open balls and easy safes to play.


Wouldnt you get shot for playing pool like this in the bars back in the 80's? LOL

I hope this helps, its helps me!

good luck!

FE

Thanks FE, good ideas!

Yes, it's never a great idea to look like you're using too much strategy in most bars

btw: I've also seen a lot of smart strategy players beat great cueists in English 8-ball. It's not as powerful a weapon in the US game, but it is still valuable. Could be worth a few wins in a race to 8.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

i first choose wich balls id like to have.

i cathegorise them in A B and C class balls.
C: balls that are clustered.
B: balls that arent pottable in each pocket or that are blocking another ball of yours.
A: balls that are potable everywhere.

mostly i just compare the amount of C of stripes vs the amount of C of the solids. i take the one with the least C's. if the amount is equal or close, i compare the B's.

if there is a runout. i try to chose a runout pattern where the C's are potted as soon as possible. there should never be a B or C ball left in the last 3. i do this so that if i pot the difficult C ball, its only going to be easyer and easyer after each shot. its more a All or nothing shot. u either pot it, and probably clear. or u dont pot it, and... well u lose vs ralph souquet

if there is no runout. i still use same system to chose stripes or solids. First ball i pot , is a A ball this time. why? to be sure at least u have the best balls to do a runout in 2 or more innings. i useually play a safety after this, by use the CB or an OB to free the C balls (clustered) and make them A balls. then i know if my oponent doesnt runs out, u'll only have B and A balls left. = easy succes.

this is how i start 8ball. and it REALLY makes me a very good 8ball player.

think ive covered it all for the first ball to pot. feel free to mention me in your 'still to come' already famous 'the Calcul8tor goes mathematical' books comes out

Interesting approach Sol....thanks for the input.

It's a little like some chess systems of estimating which player has an advantage. eg. 1 point for a pawn, 3 for a castle etc. Such systems in chess often help a player to decide when a sacrifice is advantageous.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
If the layout of the balls is not too good, there are a variety of strategies that you can employ:

1. Don't run more than 3 balls at a time if you don't think you can run out
2. If you have a cluster of balls, try to deal with it as soon as possible
3. Many players have difficulty shooting shots at a distance, so put the CB at the other end of the table, if possible. ...and preferably on the rail.
4. If a ball from your opponent's group is blocking the pocket, try to clear it out ASAP as it may give your opponent too many options.
5. Utilize ball-in-hand opportunities to resolve problems with your group of balls.

Nice list PSA, thanks!

I'm starting to think a flowchart or list of choices that is comprehensive would be very long and complex....too much so to memorize.

Still, these are all good starting points. Often just thinking about an idea helps one to recognize an opportunity when it comes up.

Colin

 

[cuetechasaurus]

A friend of mine who plays top-notch 8-ball told me never just try to survive the inning. Always try to do something productive for your group, or counterproductive for your opponent's group. This is a similar rule of thumb for one pocket.

 

[TheOne]

Some good tips...thanks!

As you say, layouts can be so different that a very creative shot or series of shots may be required. I'm just trying to think through the topic a bit, improve my recognition.

As an old mentor once said, a good player may see 10 reasonable shot options, while the beginner just sees two or three. It just takes experience and brain training to recognize them and sort out the smartest option. At the moment, in some of these situations I feel I am not seeing all the options and not sorting through them in my mind quickly enough. We can't afford to always take 5 minutes in a game to analyse a table like we can here.

In English pool it is almost automatic for me, but this game presents a new challenge. Knowing when to hold (on to the runout) and when to fold (go safe), when to sacrifice a blocking ball early to increase the odds of going out and when to leave it in place so as to make it hard for the opponent to finish should some critical shots go awry. These kind of decisions are crucial, and if the pockets on these tables continue to tighten as we are expecting, more and more strategical situations will arise. So instead of going for the clearance 80-90% of the time, it could become 70% of the time. Making 30% or more of the games strategical in nature.

I'll try to get some diagrams up for discussion later, but trying to get some practice in for now. Am hoping some others will set up some diagram examples of situations they have confronted and found difficulties with, or good solutions to.

Colin

I know what you mean Colin, its a very different rule set to UK 8 Ball. Much more attacking although the tightening of pockets will of course increase your safety options btw

 

[Cornerman]

One weakness in my game is choice of shot after a break with open table when the out is too difficult to make.

In English 8-ball, which is the game I played for many years, the options are quite clear (usually try make a ball then block a pocket), but this strategy is much less useful in US 8-ball.

So I was hoping some of you guys could help me out with some strategy options for these situation. Explain your thinking process. Perhaps some wei table examples of how you would handle certain situations.

Colin

I look for the better set by looking where the 8-ball sits, where the clustered balls and breakout balls lay, the angles of approach for the cueball to the clusters, tied up balls down the rail to the corner pockets, and open balls and what their available angles are.

That's a lot to think about, and, IMO, things that only improve with more 8-ball play. I suppose a coach would be a good idea. I'd get an amateur 8-ball player.

Fred

 

[Snapshot9]

Selecting

1) Look immediately for problem balls. Evaluate breakouts for them, and even shooting a shot to bump another one of yours over to be a breakout ball for the problem ball.
2) If a solid and stripe are close together on the long rail, favor the ones closest to the corner pocket, because if it comes down to a safety battle, the one furthest fromthe corner pocket will be hardest to get shape for or to make.
3) I tend to favor stripes, always have. I play many players that if the balls are even halfway close to being equal in the layout, they will always pick solids, and sometimes not notice that there is a stripe that is a stopper.
I do not pick stripes all the time, I pick which ones are best for a run.
4) Something OVERLOOKED by many players I play, all the time, is a starting shot THAT MAKES THE RUN POSSIBLE, which is usually a combination shot with a stripe and a solid in the combination. I simply START with the combination shot, and many times, the ball was a problem ball before I recognized the combination shot would solve that problem and allow me to finish out the table.
5) I hit most breakout shots firmly. Many players hit the blocked balls where the balls will go to another rail, but leaves a bad angle for the following shot. I hit them firmly where they come back off that other rail,
and more into the center of the table more, which provides an easier shot for the following shot.
6) Sometimes, if the balls are bad, I recognize right away there is no run there, so I pick the ones to run, and to have the best remaining ball(s) to play safeties with.
7) Never never run down to 1 ball left knowing yiou will have to play safe.
Always leave 2-3 balls up knowing that, miss the 2nd and 3rd ball on purpose, leaving them at good spots to shoot from anywhere the opponent might leave the cue ball. Make your opponent break up his and your blocked ball (first you have to know he can not make his ball that is tied up with yours). With your other balls on the table, you can hit yours where they can be made, but put the cue ball where he HAS NO CHOICE
but to shoot his blocked ball, but from a cue ball position that is bad for him to do that. That way, he has to shoot that ball, your ball gets broken out, and you still have 3 balls to shoot at, which makes running out easier.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS: MAKE YOUR OPPONENT MAKE THE MISTAKE, freeing up your problem ball to finish out your run.
8) Get used to spotting balls that are STOPPERS .... Period If you take the other ones, then your opponent will have to deal with the Stopper(s).
9) I DO NOT always plan to run out. Sometimes a recognized safety after making 3 balls leaving my opponent a certain way where he will have to shoot in a certain way MAY CURE A PROBLEM FOR ME, and then after he shoots, I can finish my run.
10) If you have a tricky shape or breakout shot and get BIH, do it then, because you probably will never get the cue ball EXACTLY where it needs to go again later.

Summary:
1) Recognize the problems, those you can solve, and those you can not.
2) Recognize your opponent's problems, and the ones you think he can solve, and the ones he can not solve.
3) If you can make one of his problems a solution for one of yours, do it.
(making your opponents problems work for YOU).

 

[cheesemouse]

Collin,
I'm hoping you do well in Reno and I know you will prepare to the best of your ability. I think you are in the process of correcting your less than natural play/rythm, I could be wrong here but I think you have mentioned this yourself. The chess analogy is present in 8ball and I have often heard the game referred to chess on wheels. The problem is in the IPT the average number of einnings per game is so low that any genius level stratagy thinking is wasted like a fart in a windstorm...
Here is something you may want to test yourself against in your practice. Break the rack and call your set of balls before the last ball comes to rest: then see if your call is the one you end up taking. You maybe very surprise how quickly the subconscious mind works.
The chess mind works best while your on the bench waiting another attempt at the table which we all know in the IPT is kind of iffy.
P.S. This is kind of an axiom/rule of thumb: if you just can't decide which set of balls is best or there is no best set take the set that has the most balls closest to the eight ball....JAT
Once again, GOOD LUCK IN RENO...

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Summary:
1) Recognize the problems, those you can solve, and those you can not.
2) Recognize your opponent's problems, and the ones you think he can solve, and the ones he can not solve.
3) If you can make one of his problems a solution for one of yours, do it.
(making your opponents problems work for YOU).

On #1 and 2 above, all problems are solvable but you may need to improvise and come up with a creative solution to the problem. Clusters, for example, can be broken up by repositioning a cluster busting ball nearby. In another situation, a stripe being blocked by a solid could perhaps be made by banking it or nudging it away from the blocking ball. The creative aspect to problem solving in 8-ball is an underappreciated skill.

The game of chess also incorporates the concept of "tempo" which can also be applied to 8-ball. In chess, sometimes it takes one or two moves (tempos) to accomplish an objective. The same concept can also be applied to 8-ball.

 

[steev]

1) Look immediately for problem balls. Evaluate breakouts for them, and even shooting a shot to bump another one of yours over to be a breakout ball for the problem ball.
2) If a solid and stripe are close together on the long rail, favor the ones closest to the corner pocket, because if it comes down to a safety battle, the one furthest fromthe corner pocket will be hardest to get shape for or to make.
3) I tend to favor stripes, always have. I play many players that if the balls are even halfway close to being equal in the layout, they will always pick solids, and sometimes not notice that there is a stripe that is a stopper.
I do not pick stripes all the time, I pick which ones are best for a run.
4) Something OVERLOOKED by many players I play, all the time, is a starting shot THAT MAKES THE RUN POSSIBLE, which is usually a combination shot with a stripe and a solid in the combination. I simply START with the combination shot, and many times, the ball was a problem ball before I recognized the combination shot would solve that problem and allow me to finish out the table.
5) I hit most breakout shots firmly. Many players hit the blocked balls where the balls will go to another rail, but leaves a bad angle for the following shot. I hit them firmly where they come back off that other rail,
and more into the center of the table more, which provides an easier shot for the following shot.
6) Sometimes, if the balls are bad, I recognize right away there is no run there, so I pick the ones to run, and to have the best remaining ball(s) to play safeties with.
7) Never never run down to 1 ball left knowing yiou will have to play safe.
Always leave 2-3 balls up knowing that, miss the 2nd and 3rd ball on purpose, leaving them at good spots to shoot from anywhere the opponent might leave the cue ball. Make your opponent break up his and your blocked ball (first you have to know he can not make his ball that is tied up with yours). With your other balls on the table, you can hit yours where they can be made, but put the cue ball where he HAS NO CHOICE
but to shoot his blocked ball, but from a cue ball position that is bad for him to do that. That way, he has to shoot that ball, your ball gets broken out, and you still have 3 balls to shoot at, which makes running out easier.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS: MAKE YOUR OPPONENT MAKE THE MISTAKE, freeing up your problem ball to finish out your run.
8) Get used to spotting balls that are STOPPERS .... Period If you take the other ones, then your opponent will have to deal with the Stopper(s).
9) I DO NOT always plan to run out. Sometimes a recognized safety after making 3 balls leaving my opponent a certain way where he will have to shoot in a certain way MAY CURE A PROBLEM FOR ME, and then after he shoots, I can finish my run.
10) If you have a tricky shape or breakout shot and get BIH, do it then, because you probably will never get the cue ball EXACTLY where it needs to go again later.

Summary:
1) Recognize the problems, those you can solve, and those you can not.
2) Recognize your opponent's problems, and the ones you think he can solve, and the ones he can not solve.
3) If you can make one of his problems a solution for one of yours, do it.
(making your opponents problems work for YOU).

this one deserved re-quoting. i wanted to post my thoughts on this topic, but snapshot pretty much summed it up. i'm a computer guy so:

if(problems-solutions > 0) then play safe.

as far as choosing a group, i tend to use (problems-solutions) as a guide.

-s

 

[Cornerman]

3) I tend to favor stripes, always have. I play many players that if the balls are even halfway close to being equal in the layout, they will always pick solids, and sometimes not notice that there is a stripe that is a stopper.

I'm having all kinds of trouble understanding this. Especially as your #3 thought. Are you saying that some players will just naturally see solids or stripes (layout, patterns, and balls) easier? And they'll overlook certain obvious layout snafus of the set that they don't naturally see better?

I wonder if other people have experienced this. I hear people also say they favor solids or stripes. I always assumed that it was because of the crazy way a lot of "players" rack the balls, a solid ends up in each corner favoring a solids layout.

Fred

 

[steev]

i favor stripes in casual play. i think it has to do with seeing aim points. striped balls have more definable locations to focus on (where the red meets the white, halfway up, for instance).

i analyze stuff if it's not casual.

-s

 

[supergreenman]

With all other factors being equal between strips and solids I'll pick stripes because there are more aim points.

 

[whitewolf]

Collin,
The chess analogy is present in 8ball and I have often heard the game referred to chess on wheels. The problem is in the IPT the average number of einnings per game is so low that any genius level stratagy thinking is wasted like a fart in a windstorm...

Cheese, you are as funny as ever ROTFLMAO.

But seriously, we all know what we would be doing if we were in the IPT (at Colin's level) and someone had a gun to our head saying that if you loose, you are going to get your head blown off:

If you were breaking, YOU WOULD NOT BE SMASHING OPEN THE RACK as this is would be a good ticket for suicide. And to prevent you from getting accused of breaking too softly by the IPT, you would break hard but miss or graze the headball, so that you end up with a louzy breakout. Turn it into a safety battle where at least you have a chance to win.

Secondly, buy and read every page of The 8 Ball Bible. Since you like chess, I am sure that you know that chess is taught in different stages, such as tactics and then strategy. The 8 Ball Bible will give you tactics like you have never even imagined before, like kick safeties etc. To be strong at 8 ball, you have to realize these different safety tactics when they arise (equivalent to tactis is chess - i.e. forking your opponent). You will also learn strategies (in chess this would be attacking down the center or counterpunching from the sides).

Thirdly, and I am not trying to be funny here, but you must be able to use your right side of the brain and think outside of the box. I loved Cheesemouse's advice of leaving your opponent's balls in a mess! This is thinking outside the box. You have to be extemely devious to win at 8 ball. Just think DEVIOUS when you play and your strategies will develop over time. 8 Ball cannot be learned overnight. Pay attention to what everybody says, as I have seen some very good advice, and eventually you will get better strategically.

And fourthly, do that nose thing before the match where you breath in on one side of your nostril and exhale on the other side, which opens up the right side of your brain . Oh, BTW, this is a serious techique used by the mental gurus.

 

[whitewolf]

I suppose a coach would be a good idea. I'd get an amateur 8-ball player.

Fred

Yeah, like someone who doesn't think that 8 ball is basically a break and run game

Colin, this is an inside joke.

 

[cheesemouse]

And fourthly, do that nose thing before the match where you breath in on one side of your nostril and exhale on the other side, which opens up the right side of your brain . Oh, BTW, this is a serious techique used by the mental gurus.

What'sss up WW?,
I just spent five minutes breathing in and out of different nostrils and I have decided I will take stripes no matter what. In regards to being in the pit on the IPT my overiding game plan would be to keep my opponent on the bench...

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yeah, like someone who doesn't think that 8 ball is basically a break and run game

Colin, this is an inside joke.

I don't know the inside joke, but I can assure you that some read this as a kind of mockery.

Obviously only a fool doesn't know that pro-level 8-ball isn't a break and run game in the majority of games between high level players.

But a significant amount of games, at least as they are played out on the tighter pocket IPT tables, do not roll out as high percentage run out situations. Hence there is an important need for strategical undertanding.

One proof is Sarah Ellerby, who didn't make a lot of break and runs but gave a lot of very good players nightmares and defeats. The main reason was her background in English 8-ball pool.

One reason I am so curious to look into the strategy of 8-ball pool US style is that I know such knowledge will win me a lot of extra games. Heck, I broke like crap in Vegas, just 4 successful breaks from 20, and still won about 40% of frames against all good players. I wouldn't have been able to achieve that without 15+ years of pool knowledge.

All players need to visit the basics on occassion. The main skill is clearing out when the chance arrives, but a significant amount of game positions don't present themselves this way in real life. Many times here it has been speculated that pros just break and run over and over at incredible percentages, but the fact is that it is just not so true.

Unfortunatley we don't have accurate conversion data from the stats, but it appears that the best IPT players clean up around 65% of the time from open table situations (taken from BRO of 39% from wet break% of around 60% estimated) when they have a good tourney, top 40 tourney players are around the 50-60% area. That leaves a lot of room for games that require some strategical play.

Colin

 

[Cornerman]

I don't know the inside joke, but I can assure you that some read this as a kind of mockery.

Obviously only a fool doesn't know that pro-level 8-ball isn't a break and run game in the majority of games between high level players.
Unfortunatley we don't have accurate conversion data from the stats, but it appears that the best IPT players clean up around 65% of the time from open table situations (taken from BRO of 39% from wet break% of around 60% estimated) when they have a good tourney, top 40 tourney players are around the 50-60% area. That leaves a lot of room for games that require some strategical play.

Colin

Whitewolf's inside joke is aimed at me, Colin. And, it is a reflection of his overall lack of experience outside his backyard, and his typical misunderstanding of every meaningful post.

The basis of his inside joke is when someone had asked what they could expect to see at the national amateur tournaments, which are normally held on 7' bar tables with easy pockets. And the answer is easy... aggressive runout play with very little safety play. The one with the most full-table runouts is the one who is left standing, which is typical of any 8-ball tournament.

Does this mean that every game is a break and run or nothing? Of course not, nor is that close to what I suggested. It is the recognition of when to run and when not to run that separates players. The better players will run more than their lesser peers. The strategy of 8-ball is a life study, and I think I represent that pretty well over the years of "how would you play this 8-ball shot," but of course WW doesn't understand those posts. Because the IPT tour uses equipment that isn't as easy as bar tables with wide pockets, then the runouts will be less.

That being said, if runout strategy is what you're looking for, then it is a strength of the amateur bar player scene. It has to be because the tables are smaller, and in general, the amateur bar players do not execute as well as the professional players. So, they have to rely on runout tactics and patterns more than the average professional. If they have professional execution combined with 8-ball runout strategy, they are deadly. Hence, looking at the Wei table layouts provided by Tanner, as well as the YouTube videos, it was pretty clear from this amateur bar table player how good Manalo and Hohmann's runout tactics were, compared to Archer and O'Sullivan's, which were on the not-so-optimum side.

In the end, the guy who runs out most still wins. The finals didn't have a single safety. Neither did the finals at Orlando. That's a lot of pool finals to not see any safeties. The choice of the first ball is normally the key to a good clearance. Which I believe is your question.

Fred

 

[CaptiveBred]

My strategy is simple.

I pick the group with the least problem balls. The group that offers the easiest run out. Sometimes its the group that has the best breakers or the most open pockets. Whatever requires the least ammount of skill to get out.

As soon as I realize I can not get out, I stop pocketing balls. usually right from the jump I realize I can't get out then make a "move". Other times I get out of line.


I then try to play a safety and develope the problem balls in one shot. Maybe move a breaker into position or even break up a cluster if it is safe.


The last thing I want to do is play safe and not leave the table in a more favorable layout. Blocking a pocket is ok if I have zero options for a future run.

I see lots of players make lateral moves in their inning. I guess they are just hoping the other player makes a big mistake. I try to never leave the table in the same condition as I left it. Even if I can play a good safe it is pointless if I have the same problems to deal with. Sooner or later i have to deal with them or lose...



The fellas you are playing, Colin, is another story. Run out or lose lol. I guess you need to decide what your limits are to decide when to go for it. i like Grady's philosophy - "never take a hard shot to end up with another hard shot".

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

The fellas you are playing, Colin, is another story. Run out or lose lol. I guess you need to decide what your limits are to decide when to go for it. i like Grady's philosophy - "never take a hard shot to end up with another hard shot".

It seems like a biggest differentiator is the 8-ball break. The guys at the upper echelon like Manalo and Hohmann have very good breaking ability and appear to break-and-run out at a much higher rate than most players.

That leaves the rest of us mere mortals who don't have a dominant breaking game, to resort to other strategies like playing safeties and whatnot.