8ball break ...

[Solartje]

hi all,

ive been watching some 8ball breaks after colins break, and i was wondering. WHy hasnt anyone ever thought about prediciting a pott from the break like in 9ball.

after looking at some breaks, u can start to see a patern in wich balls are often pocketed where.

example 1: Ralf Souquet.

this is a screenshot Right after the break.

u can see a pritty symetric break. the fact that he doesnt brake right in front of the pack, means that the 2 wingballs are touching the endrail in the kitchen not in the middle but more to the side where he broke.

the 2 balls that could be predicted are the topball of the pack , who bounces off the pack in the top corner pocket, and the 2 balls below that normally JUST miss the middle pockets on the lower side. by placing the cb a bit off center, u can squeeze in one of the 2 balls in the middle pocket.

same picture of Hohmmans break.

same picture of Manalo's break

often the most pocketed balls, are the 2 balls right under the frontball of the pack, and they are most often pocket in the side pockets.
then the top ball is most often pocketed in the oposite top corner pocket.
extra balls that are pocketed, are often ocured when the 3 lowest balls in the middle of the pack, go straight to the end rail, and come back straight above pushing some balls that are still left in the triangle area (often the 2 balls right beneeth the 8, and the 8 itself.)

here u can see that the 3 lower balls are going to the end rail and back up into the area showed by a polygon. those are the balls that are the hardest to move. but still same patern.. 3go straight down, 2 wingballs, go 2 rails and colide on top cussion +- in the middle depending from where u break. 4 balls above the wingball (around the pack) move straight in a 90° angle to the side cussions. the 2 balls under the 8 move in the same way but at very low speed. 2 balls under the topball, and the 2 on the row below outside are moving towards the side pocket. topball is banked in top corner pocket...

always the same paterns...

i was wondering if someone could perfectionise there break, so they always make a ball in the middle pocket or the topball in the corner pocket. those are the easyest to learn. (but often the topball colides with one of the wingballs on his way. the wingballs have the greatest speed, and often colide..) so maybe the 2balls under the topball in the cornerpocket are the only balls we have to concentrate on.

we would like to have of the 15 (-1) balls we pocketed, spread over the table. so 7 up and 7 down. if we break at the exact correct speed, we could get.

3 balls going to the endrail +
8ball and the 2 below +
2 who go straight to long rail = 7 Balls

all the rest goes above the middle line, so we have a even 7 - 7 ball spread over the table.

this are the 7 red balls on the next picture, the 8 ball if done correct should be kicked by one of the 3 balls on the lower rail (probably the middle one) upwards after they rebound straight to the endrail , and kick the 8 ball in an area around the middle line, wich is perfect.

im wondering if this info could be used to kind of do like in 9ball, and predict one single ball we want to pocket.

im sure we could also use the info on kwowing wich ball is going upwards and wich are staying down to put up and Evil rack where u know that all the stripes will be upwards close to where the cb is, and all the full down... as the only rule i know says that the 2 wingballs have to be different. but the rest is free to choose...


ps ive checked on my own crappy breaks and i found something. as i have a VERY weak brake, the wingballs dont move fast enough. this means, that the 4 balls who are going to the middle pocket are all kicked away from there track by the 2 wingballs. this makes it almost impossible for me to pot a ball on the break. if i could get MORE power, and get the wingballs to muve upwards faster, my middle pocketballs wont be moved on there way, and i would make a ball on the break ALOT more, maybe even from 10% too 75% of the time

 

[DonKarmon]

ive been watching some 8ball breaks after colins break, and i was wondering. WHy hasnt anyone ever thought about prediciting a pott from the break like in 9ball.

Because the necessary knowledge is beyond almost everyone's ken. They prefer to claim that it's just a matter of chance.

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from "luck".

 

[Solartje]

Because the necessary knowledge is beyond almost everyone's ken. They prefer to claim that it's just a matter of chance.

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from "luck".

meaning? pro's know exactly where there balls are going?

well to be a good breaker, u need power. colin's post is helping amazingly on that part, but power without knowledge is useless, so i hope this post will add some info, and help people (mainly myself i must admit) to learn how to break correctly, because there isnt any real good breaking instructional video or post out there.

at least, comparing my breake with pro's has revealed already alot of reasons why i dont pot a ball on the break, and why im weak. i just hope it will help and encourage others to do so.

 

[DonKarmon]

meaning? pro's know exactly where there balls are going?

Not all pros, and not all the time.

well to be a good breaker, u need power.

Not really. All you need to do is put at least one ball in a pocket and spread the remainder out favorably. Ideally, exactly one ball is pocketed, leaving your opportunities maximized.

This requires precision, not power.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Nice diagrams Solly,
I've looked at where the balls go quite a bit using frame by frame and watching break results, but still there are a lot of variables to test, so I haven't come up with anything that is constantly reliable.

But you're right that the 2 balls below the 1-ball often go toward the center pocket. It is probably the most common pot.

But your problem is not that these balls aren't moving fast enough, it is probably that they are moving too fast and so they collide with the wing balls often. The more you hit to the side of the 1-ball the more this happens, but as the hit is more full, they tend to travel toward the center pocket after the wing ball has safely passed.

I've noticed Ralf often send the 1-ball toward the corner pocket, but it's very hard to do this consistantly.

ALso, the 2 and 4 balls you have drawn, and sometimes the 5 and 9 balls can come off the rail and towards the top corner pockets.

You'll also sometimes see one of the balls behind the 8-ball go directly into the corner, but it doesn't seem to happen much when the balls are tightly racked.

I think it's good to have a break that tries to make the 2nd ball into the center pocket on one side, by hitting the pack from the side, almost dead straight, and hard enough to allow all the balls to travel an extra 30% just to increase the chances for other balls to find a pocket.

In the IPT no one seemed to have worked out a high-percentage control break, or we did not notice. Some said Efren had it pretty well worked out, but I'm not sure his wet break percentage was higher than other good breakers.

The guys that seemed to do the best consistantly were the big breakers like Boyes, Morris and Bryant.

There's still a bit to be learned with the 8-ball break. Maybe an accurate power break will always be the best option. That would be a good thing for TV. Maybe not such a good thing for the walls and windows in player's pool rooms.

Colin

 

[Solartje]

hehe or the lights in your livingroom above the table

thx for the reply colin. just doing my homework and studying everything i can before i absorb it. if there is a patern, there is always a way to kind of controle it. i wasnt sure there was one in 8b. but there seems to be alot more then i thought. i understand the reason of the side full ball hit now.

yes, anyone can tell you, break form the side, but im not doing things i dont understand. now i do. i might not ever master any potshot in my life, but sure is a good thing, to not just break, but see how my balls are going when i do, and see if i can direct it into lines that are more favorable to me. move cb across the line, etc.

i know, ive read hundred times, move the ball along the headrail untill i find the sweetspot. how was i suposed to know when i found this spot, if i didnt know the meaning now i know. i know what to look at, to judge the sweet spot.

maybe im silly solly, but I just wanted to post it for the people who didnt know it like me even if thats only one person.

ps im going to play a full afternoon tomorow, in preparation for a VERY difficult state team competition. i finaly have a day off. ill have to play the winner of the state titel (the one where i finished 5th), and the runnerup in both 8ball and 14-1. i havent practise yet what ive learned on a real table and cb, but ill do so all afternoon and hope i learned enough to pot some balls on the break and increase my power. im curious to see how ill be breaking in the match knowing what i do now. (yes ill tape some warmups GOD thank u for this technology!

 

[ceebee]

Joe Tucker has worked on this for years.

He has some info on these different pots. They are diagrammed in his Racking Secrets Book, which is part of the book titled "The GREAT Break Shot".

Lead Ball - Side Pocket
Lead Ball - Head Rail Pocket
2nd Row Ball - Side Pocket
3rd Ball - Cross side Pocket
Back Row (1st inside Ball ) - Head Rail Pocket

 

[Klopek]

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from "luck".

Wow, that last line sounds real familiar.

Welcome back Mr. Hakala.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Wow, that last line sounds real familiar.

Welcome back Mr. Hakala.

I didn't believe in reincarnation before but I do now!

 

[jay helfert]

Because the necessary knowledge is beyond almost everyone's ken. They prefer to claim that it's just a matter of chance.

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from "luck".

The all-knowing, all-seeing Dracula returns! Once again we are graced with his wealth of knowledge and monstrous ego.

Welcome back Oh Mr. Pomposity!

 

[Snapshot9]

Solly ....

I can appreciate your intense analyzation of the break, but ... ROFL ... I think you are in for many BIG HEADACHES .... You are not the first to think about breaking, etc.. Don't you think if someone had it down, that they would have written a book, and it would have become the 'Bible' of breaking .... lol

Did you consider speed of the break, and all the kisses of the object balls and cue ball that goes on .... ROFL ... lol

When Einstein said there are over 6 million shots in Pool, he might have just been talking about the break ... lol

You do get a 'A-' for effort though ...

 

[Double-Dave]

The main difference between the 9-ball and 8-ball break is that there is no ball "set" for the cornerpocket in 8-ball, allthough I generally make one of the corner balls in their respective corner over four rails maybe 10% of the time. Hence the margin for error for making a predicted ball on the break is much smaller, because the side pockets are smaller.
I heard some of the IPT commentators mention that if you break from the box, drawing the cueball helps in pocketing the two second row balls in the center. I've been trying it, but I can't get it to work consistently. Well maybe I should practice my break more, but shouldn't we all (Dave, hopes not he alone hates practicing)?
At this point I tend to believe that the power break, relying on luck to make a ball is the best option. Now I'm gonna watch Colin's video again, thanks for that one Colin!

 

[Solartje]

I can appreciate your intense analyzation of the break, but ... ROFL ... I think you are in for many BIG HEADACHES .... You are not the first to think about breaking, etc.. Don't you think if someone had it down, that they would have written a book, and it would have become the 'Bible' of breaking .... lol

Did you consider speed of the break, and all the kisses of the object balls and cue ball that goes on .... ROFL ... lol

When Einstein said there are over 6 million shots in Pool, he might have just been talking about the break ... lol

You do get a 'A-' for effort though ...

ah well, i helped myself with it at least

tried it out today. in 5 x 9b breaks i made; 9ball, wing+1ball, random+1ball, 9ball, win +1ball. where i usually never do anything. Good day would be 1 ball in 3 breaks. then i tried the 8ball. its do-able to pot the 2ball behind headball in the side pocket. i think ive made some 30 breaks, and made the middle pocket ball a good 10 times. and the rest was either the middle pocket ball that just misses it and pots in the corner. i came dry once. still 10/30 is not bad. im sure mastering it more could be really something i see myself training for. poting a good 20 out of 25 times the 2dball in the middle.

i know alot of colisions are done u cant possible imagine. but u cant have a colision as long as a ball hasnt touched a rail. the 2ball can go to the middle easily, and only 2 balls can come in its way. the cb, the wingball after 2 rails. cb can be controled, the wingballs is only in function of your speed and angle. so if u can master the right speed and full hit, u could in theory aim the 2ball to the middle without ever having a colision a good 25-30 out of 30 times. im sure its something u can practice.

i know alot lol'ed when efren was training lucky pots from balbangers. everyone asked why did he want to train those. well thats what makes efren #1. my break is the weakest ever, and my weakest link. so lets change that in my most powerfull weapon. and maybe win a match or 2 more.