9 ball Format Single Elimination best 3 outta Five Sets

[Island Drive]

Lag, winner breaks the first three racks, loser racks.
Next, reverse positions.
Best 2 outta five sets, 10 minute break between sets, if it goes to the third/final set have a 15 minute break?
How many of us have won our first match and then waited forever for our next match?
This format would allow more players to be registered and would allow the event to finish at a decent time on Sunday.
If you lose your first match, your out, and you can enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Finals, make it like the pros, no sets just a single race to 11 winner breaks loser racks.

Your thoughts?

 

[Black-Balled]

Why does this format behave differently (time-wise) than traditional formats?

You still have two players competing and the outcome determining subsequent matches.

 

[Island Drive]

Good question.....

Two reason, it takes less time for one match compared to total time for two matches, less matches, tables open up on Sunday for the regular customers and they pay.

 

[Black-Balled]

That doesn't explain how the format changes the amount of time required to play a match, or for the event as a whole.

If you do 3 races to 5, max possib games is 27.
If you do 1 race to 11, max possib games is 21.

Both scenarios require first round match outcomes to be determined in order to have second round matches determined.

 

[Island Drive]

That doesn't explain how the format changes the amount of time required to play a match, or for the event as a whole.

If you do 3 races to 5, max possib games is 27.
If you do 1 race to 11, max possib games is 21.

Both scenarios require first round match outcomes to be determined in order to have second round matches determined.

Good info BUT....
It's best two outta 3 races to 3 or 4.

I corrected my first post to (2 outta 3) 3 outta five is too long for pool unless it's a pro type event sorry for my confusion.

Tennis majors play best 3 outta five, sorry for my confusing you.

I've never been that good at writing, tho I can type good .

When one player wins the first two sets/which will happen, match is over.

Then there is NO third set.

 

[Black-Balled]

Good info BUT....
It's best two outta 3 races to 3 or 4.

I corrected my first post to (2 outta 3) 3 outta five is too long for pool unless it's a pro type event sorry for my confusion.

Tennis majors play best 3 outta five, sorry for my confusing you.

I've never been that good at writing, tho I can type good .

When one player wins the first two sets/which will happen, match is over.

Then there is NO third set.

Thanks, mon.

I am still not sure I see it....whether the races are to 3 or 9 or 43, as long as we consider the two scenarios to be of comparable lengths, the actual length of the races is a non issue in this comparison.

Additionally, the no 3rd set scenario isn't really that great of a value, as there would also be single set matches that would be blowouts.

In fact, 3 races to 4 has max potential games of 21, while a single race to 8 has max length of 15 games...so there's that.

All that said; sbe uses that format, I do believe. Not sure what lil hoppe's reason is for it.

 

[Island Drive]

Ok I'm going to explain it from scheduling perspective.

One day event, no one has to be away from family for two days, and many do church on Sun.

32 player field, Best 2 outta three sets, races to 3.

Your room has 8 tables.

11 am Round 1....8 matches start.

1 pm Round 2....8 matches start.

3 pm Round 3....8 matches start

5 pm Round 4.....4 matches start

Once round four winds down, 4 tables are Open for the sat. night crowd regulars that pay the rent.

7 pm Round 5.....2 matches start.

9 pm Round 6....FINALS

Players that finish their matches early, have time for a snack/rest to get ready for the next round.

Room owner, does NOT lose his Sat. night business with this format.

 

[Black-Balled]

Your input thus far doesnt address the reason your 2/3 races to 4 tournament is any different from a double elim race to 8 or 9 one.

Church/ Saturday night are not relevant to the above.

 

[Island Drive]

Your input thus far doesnt address the reason your 2/3 races to 4 tournament is any different from a double elim race to 8 or 9 one.

Church/ Saturday night are not relevant to the above.

Why is that?

A dbl elim event with 32 players will NEVER get over by 11 pm in an 8 table room, with races to 7 or 8 or 9.

 

[Black-Balled]

Why is that?

A dbl elim event with 32 players will NEVER get over by 11 pm in an 8 table room, with races to 7 or 8 or 9.

Church/ Saturday night are goals or consequences. They are effects, not causes.

I am interested in the reason why- the cause- your proposal is better than a traditional event of similar match length.

I wish some of the other pool room bums would share their thoughts....

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I wish some of the other pool room bums would share their thoughts....

Sets are pointless. I've already described a buy-back system that keeps the tables occupied -- the main point of any tournament -- and has lots of other nice features. Evidently Bill missed those posts.

 

[Island Drive]

Sets are pointless. I've already described a buy-back system that keeps the tables occupied -- the main point of any tournament -- and has lots of other nice features. Evidently Bill missed those posts.

So Bob, who has done sets, like my suggestion, and said to you it's pointless?

(Black-Balled said:)
... (I wish some of the other pool room bums would share their thoughts)....

Bob I never would of thought I was a bum, but I guess you've got your opinion.

Sorry for giving you all any different ideas.

We'll just let Jewett tell us all what's best for us.

Why, because he's got more knowledge/stats/info than anyone on the planet about pool. He must be smarter than ALL of us.

Thx Bob for you Opinion.

I'll get outta your sandbox, and go play somewhere else.

 

[Black-Balled]

So Bob, who has done sets, like my suggestion, and said to you it's pointless?

(Black-Balled said:)
... (I wish some of the other pool room bums would share their thoughts)....

Bob I never would of thought I was a bum, but I guess you've got your opinion.

Sorry for giving you all any different ideas.

We'll just let Jewett tell us all what's best for us.

Why, because he's got more knowledge/stats/info than anyone on the planet about pool. He must be smarter than ALL of us.

Thx Bob for you Opinion.

I'll get outta your sandbox, and go play somewhere else.

Don't get mad. I was thinking it was a nice exchange and I regret not saying so earlier, even though I almost did more than once.

I think your assumptions about the format are flawed, or your position isn't being explained well.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So Bob, who has done sets, like my suggestion, and said to you it's pointless? ...

I apologize for my brief, flippant response. You clearly feel very strongly about your proposal and I should have been less dismissive.

The pro carom tour played in sets (best of five to 15 points) for quite a while. It has advantages. Some feel it is more exciting because it can come down to a 2-2 set score. The major problem is that it's really hard to predict how long a match will take. It is lousy for TV. For example if one player is hot or the other doesn't play very well, the sets might go 15-2, 15-1, 15-2 for a total of 50 points. On the other hand, you might see 15-14, 13-15, 15-12, 13-15, 15-11, or five sets with a total of 136 points. The absolute extremes are 45 versus 145 total points scored. That large a variation, in addition to the variation of slow/fast players is a scheduling issue.

Carom gave up set play and now plays a single game to 40 points for most major matches. They often have the additional rule that if the breaker wins, the other player has a chance to tie. If they tie, there is a shoot-out from the break shot for each player. There were several shoot-outs in the last world championships. I think Darren Appleton had a similar rule in his tour with spot shots of various difficulties if the players tied.

I can see a couple of other issues with sets. The scoring is more complicated. This shouldn't be a big issue, but players sometimes can't even keep a simple score on the beads. A score sheet will help but that's something new to do.

It's different. People don't like change. Also, whoever is running the event needs to understand some new stuff.

I do agree completely with your proposal to have single elimination. It makes scheduling much simpler and much, much less wearing on the players because the waiting is mostly eliminated. There is a chance the tournament could finish before 2AM. It is a real shame that double elimination is entrenched in pool. If a race to 6 double is changed to race to 9 single, the tournament is over quicker.

To see your system in operation, someone will have to convince a room/promoter to try it and then do most of the work.

 

[Island Drive]

I apologize for my brief, flippant response. You clearly feel very strongly about your proposal and I should have been less dismissive.



To see your system in operation, someone will have to convince a room/promoter to try it and then do most of the work.

Thx....

As a prior room owner & designer of two more, both that are still up an running over 30 years later I have allot of experience in food and beverage.

In my youth I traveled, if I liked a town I'd find a bartending job and park it for awhile. Did this for Fourteen years in 6 different states. Even worked in Five Star Resorts and opened the Rusty Pelican outside of San Francisco by the Alameda Tube, before the 880 collapsed from the earthquake.

These guys, who owned the Rusty Pelican/Ancient Mariner restaurants did something I've never seen before to promote.

The told us bartenders to pour doubles their first 30 days of opening.

I always enjoyed pleasing Everyone that walks thru the door, and my concern is for the regulars, staff, the bartenders, the tips and the kitchen help.

This is just an idea/format that if tried might/might not work.

No different than meeting a new lady friend that you think you like, till she talks and talks and won't shut up.

Even the US Open in Chesapeake VA when Barry first created the event, who would of Thunk that ''it'' would be the true test Standard/Worldwide of this particular game and change many men's lives because of their wins.

All pro tennis events are best 2 outta three sets. But, in their major events, like the French Open it's best 3 outta five.

Keep in mind too, EXPENSES. When you get four guys in a car to go to a one day event, split gas.... NO Hotel i$ needed. They will come. In general, pool players, like myself in my early yrs, watch the money VERY closely, because we all know how difficult it is to travel, do well and come home with more $$$$$$$ than we left with. If 4 broke dick pool players, of which I was one many times over. If we can get to an event cheap (split gas 4 ways and pay no hotel) that's a win for us all, even 200 miles away one way. We can split the drive, rest, bs and bring our cooler and keep the Nut down. That's life when your working your way thru it.

 

[Wybrook]

So if you do the math...
A 32 player double elimination tourney has 64 matches total. (unless double elim final)
A 32 playe single elimination tourney has 32 matches..... unless you do 2 out of 3 sets. Then you have somewhere between 64 and 96 matches.

Even if the races are shorter, the chances that you will play either the same or more total games exists.
I think double elimination is the way to go, or one long race, single elim.

...and to my credit I have ran somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000 tournaments (and won over 1500)

 

[The_JV]

I do agree completely with your proposal to have single elimination. It makes scheduling much simpler and much, much less wearing on the players because the waiting is mostly eliminated. There is a chance the tournament could finish before 2AM. It is a real shame that double elimination is entrenched in pool. If a race to 6 double is changed to race to 9 single, the tournament is over quicker.

I'm not as experienced as some claim to be, so I guess my opinion should be weighed against that fact.

Although pool players will always find something to complain about, I haven't seen too many complain about waiting if they have a predetermined start time for their next match. Of course poorly ran tournaments will have ridiculous waits once you hit the semi's. A well scheduled tournament doesn't mean an early finish, but most who concern themselves about such a thing aren't the ones competing at the end of the night.

The entrenchment of double elimination tournaments is just another repercussion from attempting to appease weaker players. No different than applying handicaps so they can delude themselves into thinking they can compete with the elite. However many a great player has come back from the one loss side to win the finals, so it does allow for the cinderella story.

Most would not want to pay $500 entry to potentially play only a single match. Hard to blame them really. However I'm willing to bet that same on the fence group will line up to bet $500 on a set if they thought the action was in their favour.

This discussion really comes down to entry fee. I would have to think most would be fine with any format for $20. Add a zero to that number and the number single elimination proponents would drop drastically.

Really what it all boils down to is that the problem with pool..., is the pool players...lol.

 

[Island Drive]

T....NO one knows....why? Because no one's tried it, so it's not answerable.
Many don't like to loose their entire weekend, and have to pay for hotel etc.
But dbl/elim it's entrenched.
I asked a very good, long time player about this format last night, his immediate response, was yep I'd try it.

If you've played in allot of dbl elimination events outta town for big money, often the TD or house man running the board, will schedule as they like, OFTEN favoring their local players, to have an advantage. It's real life.
I got phucked once at an event Country Cowboy in KS yrs ago.
For some reason they had a ref at our match 9-12th if you lost, no one else did.
I was leading and gonna win, the ref called a foul said I touched a ball NOT, was no foul, he picked up the ball and handed it to his buddy to make sure of the win.
It was a $5,000 added bar table event in the 80's.
Lotta money back then, for a pool tournament.

 

[The_JV]

I asked a very good, long time player about this format last night, his immediate response, was yep I'd try it.

I'd definitely try it as well... However, I'm in that small group of players that are later in years, that have financial resources to spend on the frivolous, and can play the game at a decent level.