9 Ball - Really as bad as everyone says?

av84fun said:
I tend to agree with you. I just am curious about where you got the 563/1000 data.

The accu-stats data is what I believe Bob Jewett posted a while back...but they were derived from matches played a fairly long time ago before "tight racking" (read...TAPPED RACKS) came into being. Nowadays, the "ball made on the break" percentage is likely higher than it was back in the day.

But again, I agree with your general thesis. People forget that making a ball on the break doesn't guarantee seeing the lowest ball and the player who pushes out has about a 55% chance of losing.

Regards,
Jim
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a friend of mine a [very good player himself] studies all this stuff & he wanted to know the break & win % of the best breakers strickland, luat, parica, archer etc. he came up with 563 of 1000 breaker lost. he has alot of other data if your interested.
 
How many time have we broke perfect just to have another ball kick the cueball ? there is no such thing as a perfect break. you cant defend against getting kicked by another ball. you should try to squat the Qball but its not a guarantee. you cant take 1 example and apply it to everything else.
 
jasonlaus said:
How many time have we broke perfect just to have another ball kick the cueball ? there is no such thing as a perfect break. you cant defend against getting kicked by another ball. you should try to squat the Qball but its not a guarantee. you cant take 1 example and apply it to everything else.
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ive seen a couple of pros that can beat the 9 ball ghost without ball in hand cuz they make the wing ball and have the same pattern every time
 
jamesroberts said:
sounds like we agree to disagree
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Fair enough but the fact of the matter is that there are several balls in a rack that won't consistently end up in the same half of the table let alone in some sort of systematic relationship to the other balls.

And in addition, depending on which ball or balls might drop on the break the remaining pattern can be radically different than if the same ball was racked in the wing position (illegally) and it went every time.

Regards,
Jim
 
jamesroberts said:
ive seen a couple of pros that can beat the 9 ball ghost without ball in hand cuz they make the wing ball and have the same pattern every time
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you've got a bet. let me know when and where.
 
jamesroberts said:
ive seen a couple of pros that can beat the 9 ball ghost without ball in hand cuz they make the wing ball and have the same pattern every time
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Without BIH it's not 9 Ball Ghost...just regular 9 Ball and the Break and Run percentage...which is what you are talking about is well known to be less than 35% for the greatest champions of all time.

You are just barking up the wrong tree here IMHO. I would suggest that you simply watch a few pro matches on TV and you will see that even SIMILAR patterns...let alone the SAME patterns do NOT recur very frequently.
Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Without BIH it's not 9 Ball Ghost...just regular 9 Ball and the Break and Run percentage...which is what you are talking about is well known to be less than 35% for the greatest champions of all time.

You are just barking up the wrong tree here IMHO. I would suggest that you simply watch a few pro matches on TV and you will see that even SIMILAR patterns...let alone the SAME patterns do NOT recur very frequently.
Regards,
Jim
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i dont really have to turn on a tv to see world class players....... i live in the tampa area that has corey deuel , donny mills, tony crosby etc and im not trying to tell anyone that they are right or wrong im just telling my expieriences
 
jasonlaus said:
you've got a bet. let me know when and where.
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Count me in...and as we know, the rules require that all balls except the 1 and 9 must be racked randomly. So, even IF the balls in the same rack position always ended up in the same place...which they do not...with random racking the patterns MUST be different.

In addition to "beat the ghost" (even though that is a misnomer without BIH) the shooter must win the majority of the racks.

So, the bet should be a race to 20 where to win, the shooter must break and run 11 times out of 20.

9 ft. table with 4 1/2 pro cut pockets. I would be happy to pay to watch that.

Regards,
Jim
 
jamesroberts said:
i dont really have to turn on a tv to see world class players....... i live in the tampa area that has corey deuel , donny mills, tony crosby etc and im not trying to tell anyone that they are right or wrong im just telling my expieriences
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Fair enough.
 
av84fun said:
Count me in...and as we know, the rules require that all balls except the 1 and 9 must be racked randomly. So, even IF the balls in the same rack position always ended up in the same place...which they do not...with random racking the patterns MUST be different.

In addition to "beat the ghost" (even though that is a misnomer without BIH) the shooter must win the majority of the racks.

So, the bet should be a race to 20 where to win, the shooter must break and run 11 times out of 20.

9 ft. table with 4 1/2 pro cut pockets. I would be happy to pay to watch that.

Regards,
Jim
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well if you think people rack the balls randomly when they play rack your own or rack for each other then well i dont know what to tell you
 
jamesroberts said:
well if you think people rack the balls randomly when they play rack your own or rack for each other then well i dont know what to tell you
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Back at ya...If you think people allow their opponents to place the balls in the same positions every time they rack for themselves either

1. They don't know the rules

2. They don't care about the rules or

3. They want to use consistent racking patterns themselves so they don't object.

But does Cory play in lots of rack your own matches??

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Back at ya...If you think people allow their opponents to place the balls in the same positions every time they rack for themselves either

1. They don't know the rules

2. They don't care about the rules or

3. They want to use consistent racking patterns themselves so they don't object.

But does Cory play in lots of rack your own matches??

Regards,
Jim
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ive never seen anyone say anything about the racking order and at a tournament last year i asked a former us open champ if he wanted to play rack your own and he said no he'd rather play rack for each other cuz he wanted to put the balls in a certain sequence
 
jamesroberts said:
ive never seen anyone say anything about the racking order and at a tournament last year i asked a former us open champ if he wanted to play rack your own and he said no he'd rather play rack for each other cuz he wanted to put the balls in a certain sequence
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World Standard Rules

2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.

As I noted previously, there are 3. reasons why that rule is disobeyed and now I will add a 4th...

1. They don't know the rules

2. They don't care about the rules or

3. They want to use consistent racking patterns themselves so they don't object.

4. There is no law that says the WSR's must be adhered to and players or event promoters can impose any rules they wish.

But if I was getting weight, I am quite sure that my opponent will not permit my weight ball to be racked in the wing position nor would I allow him to put it there in a rack your own format so that he could drain my weight ball on the break.

Regards,
Jim
 
jamesroberts said:
make it cheap for your own good
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You're not serious are you??

"So, the bet should be a race to 20 where to win, the shooter must break and run 11 times out of 20.

9 ft. table with 4 1/2 pro cut pockets. I would be happy to pay to watch that."

To that I will add the requirement of a neutral racker and WSR rules on the break...i.e. no soft breaking...3 balls past the head string, including any balls pocketed.

I'm in for a bag a set, 2 set minimum with a mandatory 3rd set tie breaker.

I haven't been to Florida in a while and would enjoy this exhibition...as well as the free trip! (-:

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
You're not serious are you??

"So, the bet should be a race to 20 where to win, the shooter must break and run 11 times out of 20.

9 ft. table with 4 1/2 pro cut pockets. I would be happy to pay to watch that."

To that I will add the requirement of a neutral racker and WSR rules on the break...i.e. no soft breaking...3 balls past the head string, including any balls pocketed.

I'm in for a bag a set, 2 set minimum with a mandatory 3rd set tie breaker.

I haven't been to Florida in a while and would enjoy this exhibition...as well as the free trip! (-:

Regards,
Jim
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you are changing the rules...the whole point of my post is that if a player racks good that 9 ball is a breaking contest and they will get pretty much the same pattern every time
 
jamesroberts said:
thank you for the insightful post
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You want some insight James. Well you have to look at it at different levels. Are you talking about what people want to play or what they want to watch?
Play? You want something harder then 9 Ball, then try 10 Ball. What happens when you perfect that break (I know you are a good player). Go to 11 Ball, 12 Ball? If players want a hard game then play snooker. That IS hard.
Watch? You probably don't have access to top class pool - Matchroom Sport style. But they have spent many years educating a worldwide audience into understanding the rules and tactics of 9 Ball. They won't be jumping in the 10 Ball bandwagon and tipping the baby out with the bath water.
 
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