Considering your unease with the inside english, I guess you did play it right. IMHO the inside english shot is the correct shot though, and maybe it's something you need to get more comfortable with.
9-ball: Seven Rail Shape - Did I Play this Right?
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
I would hesitate before I shot this with inside english. The problem is you have very little room for error in speed. If you even slightly over hit this, you end up with an impossible 9-ball shot. And if you slightly underhit this (to ensure shape on the 9), you might not make the 8. A general proposition for getting shape is that you should try not to cross your shape zone. Shooting with inside is , as the ball travelsdesert1pocket said:
If you set it up and actually shoot it, you will end up as below for the first few tries, and then you may eventually get the speed dialed in. But, there are a few problems with shooting the pocket speed with inside english shot: (1) in a serious game situation, overhitting is a terrible tendency that comes along with nerves; (2) shooting with inside (and especially thin back cuts) is very difficult for most people; (3) you are crossing the position zone, and only have about 12" of shape line after you hit the second rail (shown as shot A below)[good position is the blue part-> bad position is the gray part]; and (4) if you DO overshoot it, the cue ball is in a position that you have to use the bridge to play a safety. Too many things can go wrong in my opinion.
For the greatest percentage chance to get out, I would play the "safer" shot (B) (as noted below). This shot gives you about 4 feet of workable position - AND even if you overshoot it, yout can actually reach the cue ball for a safety.
-td
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td873 said:
I think you may have misunderstood me. Inside english is the excact opposite to what you have diagrammed. Inside english in this case would be right, which would be much closer to the red line you have drawn. The blue line you drew would be the effect of using outside (in this case left) english.
I don't think I do follow you. In the shot orginally posted: left is running english (AKA outside english), and would open up the angle off of each rail. This is the red line, not the blue one.desert1pocket said:
Right english is hold up english (AKA inside english), and would shorten the angle noticeably off the 2nd rail. This is the blue line (not the red one).
For the record - slow rolling with inside isn't impossible - just a smaller position zone. It is workable if you have decent speed control. While experimenting with this shot again tonight, I found out that if you hit with MEGA-inside and a health sprinkling of draw, you can do this.
I thought it was pretty neat.
-td
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td873 said:
td -- I tried your natural shot and yes it works too. I actually found it more difficult to make the ball with outside english on your shot because of the delicate speed necessary to not blow by the position zone. It is certainly viable, but for me, the speed on that shot was more difficult that on the 1-railer with extreme right. Many times I got position but the object ball didn't have enough speed to reach the pocket.
I also wanted to note for people trying the reverse english shot to make sure to give the ball a good stroke and spin the crap out of it. This will minimize throw and allow you to cut the ball more predictably in my opinion. Your speed on the one rail reverse english shot is not critical...just make the ball and you're golden.
I've lumped all four viable shots into one cuetable with the correct cueing below. I still think the first page option has the biggest margin of error as long as your comfortable with spinning your rock. Good opinions to all though.
td873 said:
While true that the angle would shorten off the the second rail with inside english, the angle would first shorten off of the first rail. Why on earth does your inside english pathway hit the first rail 2/3 of a diamond left of the other pathway? It should hit to the right of it. And why does it come off of the first rail wider rather than shorter. I'm not very good with the wei table, but this is closer to what would happen using inside english.
I'm still a little confused as to your comments. Differences in cue ball path are due to execution and intended results. If you need the cue ball to go to 2 different locations on the table, you must do something different, e.g., english or cut angle. For example, cutting the ball to a different part of the side pocket will result in different cue ball paths. Oh, and on oblique angles inside has less effect on angle than outside. Inside is most effective on shallow angles.desert1pocket said:
I suggest setting this up on a real table and shooting it 20 times or so. You should be careful to note the part of the side pocket you are aiming to, the part you actually hit, and the result. For me (and I think for most people over time), shooting the overcut + inside shot (the shot you described) will result in less runouts than the outside english shot. [especially since your tangent line illustrates the 8 misses the pocket
]Now, as for the Wei table -> it is just a tool to see how to do something. It is not the "end all" of representations. AND you must be very accurate in the way you set up balls in real life, since as little as a 1/2" can make a big difference. The way I set it up is describe a few posts above. So, I set up the shot as I described it and shot it about 20 times. My Wei table drawing respresents the typical results I achieved when I shot it; and NOT what I think it would (or should) look like. It's easy to guess what it should do, but setting it up and doing it are a bit different. [And lest we forget, if you don't set it up the exact same way, you will get substantially different results...]
So, based on the tangent lines alone in my setup, your shot (as drawn) will not go in the pocket. Besides, cheating a side pocket at this extreme angle is tough and not necessary to win this game. And, only overcutting the ball to the very top of the pocket will result in your suggested shot. To be sure you don't hit a point and lose the game, I would suggest shooting to the center of the pocket. Again, playing the percentages is how you win more, not shooting the 1 in 10 shot.
I'm not saying your way is wrong, because it may work for you, but if you scroll through the Wei tables below (with 6 pages), you will see how shooting this ball to different parts of the pocket affects the tangent line. You can't hit the 2nd diamond as you illustrate unless you (1) miss the 8-ball or (2) set it up differently.
But, don't take my word for it. Confirm it for yourself on a real table, but be sure we are all shooting the same shot, since there is little merit discussing different results for different shots - since this would be trivial. I suggest putting down a hole punch reinforcing sticker to mark the spot.
***6 pages of Wei***
And to show just how important it is to shoot the same shot - the Wei table below has 2 pages, I moved the 8 ball just a hair - probably 1/2" (or less) in real life - and this changes the shot from a sell out, to a winner...
***2 pages of Wei***
Finally, and not to belabor the point, we are talking about apples and oranges. And, all things being equal, if you don't like the way I suggested shooting this shot, just flush it and do it your way. I'm not implying that my way is the right way, just the way I would do it.
-td
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td873 said:
I don't care how anyone shoots the shot, and honestly with the risk of scratching using inside, your shot is probably better. All I want to convey is that inside english would not cause the cueball to react anywhere close to the way you had shown. Inside (right) english would not cause the cueball to hit the first rail 2/3 of a diamond to the left of the pathway of a center ball or outside english hit (which is what you diagrammed). The only things that would cause that are draw, or outside english. It would instead hit the rail in close to the same place, and any differerence would actually be to the right, not to the left. Secondly, the angle off of the first rail would be shorter than if you used outside or center ball (which is the opposite of what you diagrammed).
td873 said:
I did, and with inside english, and a decent stroke I was able to shorten the angle so much that I got shape without the cueball ever hitting the bottom rail. This is the exact opposite of what you had diagrammed. Maybe you are the one who needs to set it up on a real table and shoot it a few times.
Please set up a camera for this shot and illustrate. But, please be sure to indicate where the balls are so we can all be on the same page.desert1pocket said:
I did. I have a table in the next room.desert1pocket said:
I would guess that the shots are not set up exactly the same if you can hit the 2nd diamond with the cue ball. As I illustrated above, the ball cannot be pocketed and still hit the 2nd diamond with the balls placed as indicated a few posts above.
It would if you aimed the object ball to the bottom of the pocket, as illustrated in slide 1 of 6 above. Side english does not affect the cue ball's tangent path*.desert1pocket said:
This is not exactly correct. The direction of the cue ball is directly related to the tangent line, which (again) is dependent on where you shoot the object ball. Side english does not affect the cue ball's tangent path*.desert1pocket said:
You can hit anywhere along the rail by changing where you aim the object ball - NOT by changing your english. Side english does not affect the cue ball's tangent path*.desert1pocket said:
The 90 degree rule dictates the line where the cue ball travels, then top/bottom affect the final direction. Side english does not affect the cue ball's tangent path* However, you correctly stated that you would hit the same spot if you pocketed the ball at the same place.desert1pocket said:
Thus, as indicated, and illustrated, if you shoot with inside, you shoot to the bottom of the pocket. If you shoot with outside, you will aim for the top/middle part of the pocket. This is the 90 degree principle. To clarify by example, here is the Wei illustrating this principle:
[There was a touch of draw on this shot.]
As I illustrated in slide 5 of 6 in the Wei above, you executed the overcut with extreme inside. As I also commented, I would not suggest shooting this for the cheese.
*sidespin has no perceptible effect (if any at all) on tanget line paths. See, e.g., Dr. Dave's technical discussion at: http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2004/jan04.pdf
-td
[edited for clarity]
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