9-ball, the push-out, Luck...

Mr. J said:
Some say 9-ball is a luck game...
If I make the nine on the break I win..
If I make my attempted ball in the Wrong pocket it is good...
If I miss and hook my opponenent that is good for me and bad for him...
If I miss my ball and things fly all over and the 9 falls in I win...
If I miss my ball and it hits another ball and that ball goes in or any other ball, it is good...

Aparently you or your opponent is allowed to GET LUCKY ANYWHERE ANYTIME ANYHOW....on any shot...EXCEPT THE BREAK...

Why then is Luck somewhat taken away on the Break Shot only???
If you do not make a ball on the break and your opponent cannot see the one, he has a pushout option. Maybe he should have to shoot and no pushout available??? Why can't you get a Lucky hook on The Break??? It seems to be ok anywhere else durning the game...

What do you guys think???

Thanks again,

Mr. J.
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We used to play push out on any ball, and spot all balls, and ball in hand behind the line. Much less luck back then. The best players would almost always win.

I hated all the rule changes to Texas Express in the 80's, but we got used to the speeded up version of 9-Ball. Funny thing is, even with the new rules, the best players kept winning the tournaments. I finally figured it out, why the best players win. 9-Ball takes heart and courage to play well, and the better players have more of both.

Remember in 9-Ball, the closer you get to winning, the closer you are getting to losing also.
 
I like 9 ball better to play because I like to pocket balls, 1P is a better gambling game and I'd rather sweat 1P,
 
"I hate 9 ball. They've ruined the game. They feel like they need to speed the game up by playing Texas Express rules, when in effect, they've slowed it down. The greatest format to play 9-ball at is push-out, where you can roll out any time you want to. That, believe it or not, speeds the game up, because what it does is it opens up your offense. When you open up your offense, you can try and play with shots that you wouldn't play with under this format, because if you hook yourself, you're dead. If you hook yourself with a push-out format, you can roll out and you still have some form of protection. We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls. If you scratch on the break,you get cue ball in hand behind the headstring. And if the 1 ball went in the hole or was behind the headstring, it went to the spot. See, they took the spot shot completely out of pool. Out of 9-ball. It hasn't been there in 12 to 15 years. These kids never took a spot shot in their lives."

Buddy Hall, in the April, 2007 issue of Billiards Digest.
 
2 shot pushout

I played both, and 2 shot pushout is no different except it favors the better player. The better player usually has a 'mental game' that is superior to the weaker player, and he exploits that in winning the game and match.

For example, pushing out where slightly hooked, but can be made with a masse shot or jump shot.

Leaving real long thin cuts on the object ball where the better player can make it, but the weaker player mostly likely will not.

Leaving long rail banks on a object ball, same as above.

Weaker players in 2 shot out do not know how to leave a better player to a shot they can make and the better player can not, most of the time.
Better players are usually more experienced and knowledgeable, and use it to their full advantage.
 
Pushout said:
"I hate 9 ball. They've ruined the game. They feel like they need to speed the game up by playing Texas Express rules, when in effect, they've slowed it down. The greatest format to play 9-ball at is push-out, where you can roll out any time you want to. That, believe it or not, speeds the game up, because what it does is it opens up your offense. When you open up your offense, you can try and play with shots that you wouldn't play with under this format, because if you hook yourself, you're dead. If you hook yourself with a push-out format, you can roll out and you still have some form of protection. We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls. If you scratch on the break,you get cue ball in hand behind the headstring. And if the 1 ball went in the hole or was behind the headstring, it went to the spot. See, they took the spot shot completely out of pool. Out of 9-ball. It hasn't been there in 12 to 15 years. These kids never took a spot shot in their lives."

Buddy Hall, in the April, 2007 issue of Billiards Digest.
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That's a great quote, Pushout. I agree with Buddy 100%. I haven't read the full article, but it seems to me that the one quoted sentence, "We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls" should be ...one-foul ball in hand behind the headstring, spot all the balls..." I think that's the way we used to play.

The 3-foul-loss-of-game rule likewise hurts the offensive nature of the game. I've played lots of guys whose main objective is to try to 3-foul you. They'd never consider trying to run the balls. I played a tournament yesterday where the 3-foul rule was not used, and it resulted in much more offensive-oriented play. Ball in hand is bad enough; but then to add the 3-foul rule is ridiculous.

And finally, 9-ball can never be considered a true game of skill as long as a player can win on the break. The 9 ball should be called, and it should be the last ball made. If the 9 ball is made early, it should spot, and the player can continue his inning.

As it is, there's very little difference between a race to 5 or 7 with Texas Express type rules, and flipping a coin. Except that flipping a coin is less aggravating...;)

Doc
 
gulfportdoc said:
That's a great quote, Pushout. I agree with Buddy 100%. I haven't read the full article, but it seems to me that the one quoted sentence, "We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls" should be ...one-foul ball in hand behind the headstring, spot all the balls..." I think that's the way we used to play.

Doc
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I misspelled one-foul. Other than that, the quote is as it is in the article. Buddy may have been misquoted there, which wouldn't surprise me, as I don't think Audra Quinn has been exposed to the game too long. We always played as you described.
I've played both ways, and have always described one-foul-ball-in-hand as a chicken-shit way to play. Like other people, I took up one pocket because of the change in the 9 ball rules.
 
Koopa said:
It's the poker of pool. Shorten the races or just make it one rack per match and you'll see Chris Moneymaker come in and beat all the pros.

Play one pocket.
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Ignoring the fact that Chris Moneymaker was an extremely good tournament player even before he won the WSOP? He had proven his mettle by winning multiple tournaments with huge fields online.

Everyone loves to criticize a player for one or two hands they get caught on on TV, but ignore the fact that they made it through multiple days against great great players and held their own.

I don't care what you say. No BAD players make it to the final day of the WSOP. PERIOD.

And if you REALLY want to compare it to pool, make a more accurate comparison. Once in a while, a player who is not considered to be in the top 50 in the U.S. wins a pro tournament. This years Sands Regency is a perfect example.

Does that mean that that player did not play world class pool for that tournament? No, it doesn't.

Chris Moneymaker played well enough to beat everyone at the WSOP. Enough said. Your comparison makes it seem like a banger would win a pro event if the races were to 1.

Sorry, I ain't buying it. He still isn't winning.

Russ
 
Don't ignore the fact that when Chris Moneymaker won, he played numerous hands where he put alot / all of his chips at risk, and clearly had the worse hand going in. And repeatedly Moneymaker got the lucky suck-out, which kept him alive. Moneymaker got the luck when he needed it, and thus he won.

You can say it's all part of poker, which it is. But, this happened for him, way more than is typical for strong players to do, when they win. If you're willing to put all your chips at risk too frequently, then in poker, the hand becomes purely luck of the cards.

It's no coincidence that you haven't seen Moneymaker make it so far in the numerous other tournaments afterwards...
 
Mr. J said:
This thread has really turned out great....thanks to all of you for all your input and analysis...

Who knows...we might someday have to play a new game called "NEW NINE-BALL"...

Keep them NEW NINE-BALL rules coming.....


Mr. J. :-)
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The new game is 10 ball. I do prefer texas express. However, a buddy of mine told me of a format called "10 Ball with Sudden Death Pushout".

Similar to pushout except, if the incoming player gives the shot back to the player who pushed out, and that player fails to pot the ball, the incoming player gets ball in hand. Likewise if the incoming player accepts the pushout and misses.

Straight Pool is the true game of Champions. Make a mistake in straight pool and you get to sit down and watch your opponent run 150 balls on ya'.
 
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Scottster said:
The new game is 10 ball. I do prefer texas express. However, a buddy of mine told me of a format called "10 Ball with Sudden Death Pushout".

Similar to pushout except, if the incoming player gives the shot back to the player who pushed out, and that player fails to pot the ball, the incoming player gets ball in hand. Likewise if the incoming player accepts the pushout and misses.
Click to expand...

Interesting.
 
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