A good electronic ratings software/formula out there for a grassroots league?

[fathomblue]

I belong to a small grassroots pool league. Our player ratings are determined by an elected Board that simply votes based on what they feel is correct in regards to a person's level of play. There is no "fluidity" in that method. It's VERY rare for a player to be lowered and often takes a while for a player to be raised.

Are there any ratings software available out there that are along the lines of what NAPA uses? How feasible is it to hire someone to create one and integrate it with our league's website?

Our league has NO intention of expanding out of the general geographic area that we are in. But, we want to better serve our current players, plus re-attract those locals that have dropped out due to our current antiquated ratings methods.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Are there any ratings software available out there that are along the lines of what NAPA uses? How feasible is it to hire someone to create one and integrate it with our league's website?

I am not familiar with NAPA at all so hopefully I am correctly understanding what you are looking for. There are none out there that I am aware of, if you mean that the software should take different statistics and then generate a player rating level based on them, although maybe somebody else knows of some. If by how feasible it is you mean how expensive it is, then it isn't cheap to have custom software made, but cheap is relative I guess. Software like that would probably run around around a thousand for the most basic and minimal and go up from there depending on how involved and extravagant you wanted it to be. Maybe less if it was super basic. I am no software developer though so someone else can certainly provide much more accurate information on that.

And obviously before anything could be built, they would need to know exactly what all formulas you will be using to determine a players rating so you would need to figure all that out first. It sounds like that is where you should really be focusing at this moment. Figure out what formulas you want to use to rate players, and you can do it on paper or with a spreadsheet while you iron out all the kinks and fine tune it. Once you get that all sorted out and working to your satisfaction you can then look to have software created to do the same thing more easily and that will integrate it into your website.

If you need some help with ideas for a rating system (the formulas) I am sure you could get some ideas if you made a thread. If the game you play in your league is 8 ball I think the Fargo rating system is fantastic from what I know about it.
http://www.fargobilliards.com/pool-tournaments/fargo-ratings/

 

[buckshotshoey]

A simple handicap system used by our city league....
Handicaps are split in thirds. 3 minus...3....3 plus, 4 minus...4....4 plus, and so on.
If you are a 5 and win, you play as a 5+ the following week. Win again and you play as a 6- the week after.
It a simple system and can be manipulated too easily. There are teams that get ahead in matches and have their last player lose on purpose to lower their handicap.

I think it could be modified to help prevent this but prob not. Too many cheats out there. That's why I quit city and play APA. It still happens some but not like in city league.

 

[robsnotes4u]

Definitely

I am not familiar with NAPA at all so hopefully I am correctly understanding what you are looking for. There are none out there that I am aware of, if you mean that the software should take different statistics and then generate a player rating level based on them, although maybe somebody else knows of some. If by how feasible it is you mean how expensive it is, then it isn't cheap to have custom software made, but cheap is relative I guess. Software like that would probably run around around a thousand for the most basic and minimal and go up from there depending on how involved and extravagant you wanted it to be. Maybe less if it was super basic. I am no software developer though so someone else can certainly provide much more accurate information on that.

And obviously before anything could be built, they would need to know exactly what all formulas you will be using to determine a players rating so you would need to figure all that out first. It sounds like that is where you should really be focusing at this moment. Figure out what formulas you want to use to rate players, and you can do it on paper or with a spreadsheet while you iron out all the kinks and fine tune it. Once you get that all sorted out and working to your satisfaction you can then look to have software created to do the same thing more easily and that will integrate it into your website.

If you need some help with ideas for a rating system (the formulas) I am sure you could get some ideas if you made a thread. If the game you play in your league is 8 ball I think the Fargo rating system is fantastic from what I know about it.
http://www.fargobilliards.com/pool-tournaments/fargo-ratings/

play at Fargo Billiards and have and with 3800 games in the system, I think it is the most accurate there is.

 

[BRussell]

It really depends on what match format you use. Our BCA-sanctioned league uses a match average from 0-40. You play 4 games a night, you get 10 pts. for a win and 1pt. per ball made if you lose, then you get an average that's updated every week. A good avg. would be in the mid to high 30s. Weak players are usually in the teens and 20s.

Then each team gets a handicap score that is just the sum of each player's avg., so maybe around 130 for a 4-person team. If one team has 130 and the other 120, then the lower score team gets 10 pts. towards their total. But we also play with rounds, and the handicap is distributed across the rounds.

We don't use any software for it, except that the averages are kept on a spreadsheet and posted on a web page. You could use google docs. The teams add up their averages and figure the handicaps before each match. It's a pretty weak handicap system - a weak team will only rarely beat a strong team.

 

[CSI - Ozzy]

LeagueSys

The BCA Pool League has a tool available called LeagueSys. LeagueSys is a real time, web-based, pool league management software package that provides League Managers with tools to run their league operations efficiently. Simply enter your information into the easy-to-understand forms and LeagueSys will do the rest for you.

LeagueSys can be used with your own handicapping system or a league can use the built-in system called FairPlay. The FairPlay system adjusts every week based on player performance. Feel free to call the CSI office at 702-719-7665 and ask for Mark Estes.

Click here for more info on LeagueSys.

 

["Q" Protectors]

It would be very easy to write a spreadsheet to do what you want but you would need more then just games won vs loss. That's why BCA uses ball count and APA uses innings. Add one or the other and be quite simple to control based on a spreadsheet.

 

[spartan]

It is always scary and tricky to reinvent wheel , write own program using own formulas for such multi user site . Last thing you want is players having doubts and whining about accuracy of system. Spreadsheet is fine for small mini league but will have issues when scale up and it isn't very user friendly when added to website
Best to use something like that CSI LeagueSys that is already used by some league. I am sure they have backend API to allow integration to CMS like Wordpress, Joomla

 

[fathomblue]

Thanks everyone.

FWIW, this league is singles. We have about 200 total players, but most weeknight tourneys have maybe 6-14 players. Weekend events might have 10-20. Season kick-offs and state tournaments can have up to 60-65 players.

So, we're not big, but will be finishing up our 30th season. Trying to figure out a way to move into the future. Growth has been stagnant the last couple of years. It's mostly 8B and 9B. However, we're having more 10B events. There are occasionally some Scotch Doubles. A yearly 1P. We even had a Short Rack Banks event.

The CSI program intrigues me. It wound probably cost no more than $50/week or about $200/month, but I'm not sure we could ever afford even that. I only say that because the league coffers are pretty bare. It sounds like a pretty fair price, tho.

Anyone know of a grassroots league using it?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I belong to a small grassroots pool eague. Our player ratings are determined by an elected Board that simply votes based on what they feel is correct in regards to a person's level of play. There is no "fluidity" in that method. It's VERY rare for a player to be lowered and often takes a while for a player to be raised.

Are there any ratings software available out there that are along the lines of what NAPA uses? How feasible is it to hire someone to create one and integrate it with our league's website? ...

The NPL system which I developed is similar to the Fargo system but a little simpler. It is simple enough that you don't even need a spreadsheet unless you want the numeric help and an easy way to print out the standings. It was set up for singles leagues.

I originally described the system in 1996: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1996.pdf (see the last article).

Here is some more description including the handicapping tables: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/NPL_info.txt

The adjustments are automatic after each match -- if you win you go up and if you lose you go down. If you're 1-and-1 for the night you don't move. There is no handicapping committee, except someone has to decide what level a new player will come in at and whether he needs to be manually adjusted after the first few matches.

The system is guaranteed to give fair handicaps in the long run. Some good players don't like that. If they whine too much, run a masters' event at the end of the season just for them.

(In the tables on the pages above, two players 30 rating points apart expect to have a score of 10-5 for a race to 10 -- a factor of two apart. In more recent tables, players that different would be 100 points apart to give finer adjustment possibilities.)

 

[fathomblue]

Dang, Bob, I really like those formulas that you have. Very sweet.

It takes into account a player's "seniority" (history in the league), the "weight" of some events, and bare bones win/loss.

Is there any way to integrate a "strength of opponent" factor?

For example: Player X is a 40. Player Z is a 90. Player X upsets Z for the victory. Wouldn't it be interesting to weight that victory a little bit more than if X had beaten someone who was only a 30?

Does that make sense?

It would also be nice to have bonuses for shut-out victories. Any ideas on that?

Reading some of this and talking to a friend of mine who is a fellow league player/webmaster has me optimistic.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Is there any way to integrate a "strength of opponent" factor?

For example: Player X is a 40. Player Z is a 90. Player X upsets Z for the victory. Wouldn't it be interesting to weight that victory a little bit more than if X had beaten someone who was only a 30?

For some reason Bob's NPL system had slipped my mind when I made my post recommending the Fargo system. NPL is also excellent as well. Trust me, anything coming from Bob Jewett (NPL) or Mike Page (Fargo) is guaranteed to be reliable, accurate, and absolutely top notch. You can take it to the bank.

To address your post, I don't presume to answer for Bob, but my first thoughts are why would you want to weight it differently for beating a higher rated player? The reason I say that is because the handicap system makes the two opponents equal in their match. Yes he might be higher rated on paper, but his skill advantage was taken away from him by the handicap and the match was actually played on an equal footing with neither having an advantage and both having a 50/50 chance to win. There wasn't anything special about beating the higher rated player. You had just as good a chance to win as he did. In effect you beat an equal player, not a better one (because the handicap made you equal). Hopefully that made sense.

Of coure it is entirely possible I am missing something or misunderstanding you but it seems to me that the system (either one) already takes everything into account that it needs to (including the opponents strengths) in order to give everyone an equal chance, if that is what you are after. Now they can also be adjusted to always give the better player a slight advantage, or the weaker player a slight advantage, if you prefer that instead.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Is there any way to integrate a "strength of opponent" factor?

For example: Player X is a 40. Player Z is a 90. Player X upsets Z for the victory. Wouldn't it be interesting to weight that victory a little bit more than if X had beaten someone who was only a 30?

Does that make sense? ...

In the NPL all matches are handicapped. The handicaps are intended to be 100%, meaning that the odds are 50-50 in each match. If the weaker player wins it's not an upset -- it means the weaker player played above his average or the stronger player played below his average or some combination of that.

The Fargo system doesn't usually go for 100% handicaps and the adjustments have to be modified to allow for that. This is slightly more complicated mathematically.