A joint revisited

J

josie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A while back there was a thread about A joint construction. There was a lot of conversation about 3"-4" tenons. Are there any drawbacks to something like a 1/4" tenon? The reason I ask is of the few test A joints I have done, the ones with the longest tenon seemed the weakest. I would build a few and bend them until they break. The longer tenons always split the side wall of the bored handle fairly easily. I would not suggest using a 1/4" tenon without the mechanical bond of a screw but it might be another way to look at the a joint instead of these long tenons. I think I am going to build some this way and can't really think of any drawbacks, but looking for input.

Thanks,

Eric
 
Eric,

That is an excellent observation. I have used tenons of different lengths and have settled on 2". I have also made the tenon on the handle that would extend into the forarm and I have made the tenon on the forarm that extends into the handle. Either one seem to work well. There are probably as many ways to build an "A" joint as there are cue makers. That is just what I find works for me.
 
Much depends on the diameter:length of the tenon ratio. A 3/4" tenon going 3" deep will actually weaken the cue, IMO. A 5/8" tenon going 3" deep will strengthen the cue, IMO. With your testing, did you measure the pressure needed to split the cue or break it in half? A simple test would be taking the cue & resting it on something like a weight bench where the center is suspended. Hang weights at the "A" joint until it fails, and record the weight that caused that particular technique to fail. You might be surprised to find that even though your 1/4" tenon didn't split the cue, it may not take as much pressure to fail as a longer tenon. You don't even need glue or a tapered cue to test this. Just put 1.25" dowels together using various techniques & see which is best. The best one like this will inevitably be the best once glued.
 
Any thoughts on .750 by 3/4" tenon on both the handle and forearm joined with a phenolic sleeve?
 
radge69 said:
Any thoughts on .750 by 3/4" tenon on both the handle and forearm joined with a phenolic sleeve? That's the what I did on my latest test cue. Still have another pass to do, then I'll install the joint pin and get to hit with it.
Click to expand...

Oh , oh , trade secret alert.
Here comes the bushka secret society . :D
 
radge69 said:
Any thoughts on .750 by 3/4" tenon on both the handle and forearm joined with a phenolic sleeve?
Click to expand...

Only a moron would do something like that. But I don't use 3/4" and it is not 3/4 long.

P1012187.jpg
 
Murray Tucker said:
Only a moron would do something like that.
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hehehe you said it LOL I won't argue with you. :killingme: J/K Murray. I gotta be nice to you until I pay you for the lacewood. Then i'm gonna kick you in the nuts unless you take me fishing.
 
I have seen a good bit of a certain band cue broken in the a-joint. I have seen one inch, 5/8" and 1/4" long tenons, all from the same brand broken. So what you are thinking about has been tried and failed and has been tried and held up.
 
radge69 said:
Any thoughts on .750 by 3/4" tenon on both the handle and forearm joined with a phenolic sleeve?
Click to expand...

What you are describing is actually what I did. It was a 5/8" diameter by1/4" length tenon on both the forearm and handle with a 3/8 x 10 screw and phenolic sleeve.
 
Murray Tucker said:
Only a moron would do something like that. But I don't use 3/4" and it is not 3/4 long.

P1012187.jpg
Click to expand...

I thought that picture was of one of my cues. My A-Joints are almost identical to what that one looks like. The phenolic piece that I use is 1.5" long. I have a .750 long tenon on both the handle and the forearm however neither is .750 in diameter. Everything is pulled together with a 3/8-16 all-thread rod of different lengths and materials so as to attain the weight and balance point that I am striving to attain.

Dick
 
I actually have two put together like this, one with the .750 tenon size and one with a .625 tenon that isn't as far along, needs a couple passes yet. Wanted to see if there was a difference. I didn't think you could trust the phenolic that thin, that's why I made the second at .625. I appreciate the input, at least I know I'm onto something instead of "on" something. These are both just plain maple for test cues, won't be leaving the shop. I'm getting a nice collection in the corner, good thing camp fire season is close :)
 
radge69 said:
I actually have two put together like this, one with the .750 tenon size and one with a .625 tenon that isn't as far along, needs a couple passes yet. Wanted to see if there was a difference. I didn't think you could trust the phenolic that thin, that's why I made the second at .625. I appreciate the input, at least I know I'm onto something instead of "on" something. These are both just plain maple for test cues, won't be leaving the shop. I'm getting a nice collection in the corner, good thing camp fire season is close :)
Click to expand...

I think I would trust a phenolic wall that thin over a wood one, but I might be wrong. I like the .625" better for that reason.
 
P1012187.jpg

Hmm, how can you relieve the lateral pressure away from that phenolic sleeve ?
Imagining....
Got it!
Thanks.
 
Eric, I don't know if you're asking me, but I'll give you my answer. If I have rings at the A joint, then I sleeve them over the tenon which I run either way depending on balance. If it doesn't have rings at the A joint, I still run my tenon either way depending on balance, but I sleeve phenolic over a smaller tenon, and then cut that down to my normal tenon size. I also "treat" the end grain on my tenon(s).

I'm happy with the way my cues play, but I've read of all these different ways of doing A joints and figured I better try them so I know if I like that method or not.

I'd like to thank all you guys for all the info you put in these forums. I can't imagine how much less I would know without all the help here.
 
radge69 said:
Eric, I don't know if you're asking me, but I'll give you my answer. If I have rings at the A joint, then I sleeve them over the tenon which I run either way depending on balance. If it doesn't have rings at the A joint, I still run my tenon either way depending on balance, but I sleeve phenolic over a smaller tenon, and then cut that down to my normal tenon size. I also "treat" the end grain on my tenon(s).

I'm happy with the way my cues play, but I've read of all these different ways of doing A joints and figured I better try them so I know if I like that method or not.

I'd like to thank all you guys for all the info you put in these forums. I can't imagine how much less I would know without all the help here.
Click to expand...

There's no wrong way to do something if the cue holds together & plays the way you want it to. The only thing that really makes the difference is consistency. Does your method work every time, time after time, and stand the test of time? If so then it matters not what anybody else does. Still neat to see how everybody else does things.
 
qbilder said:
Sooooo, how do you assemble your wrapless cues?:confused:
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That is the only drawback I have heard of a phenolic sleeve. For a wrapless cue I skip the phenolic sleeve and just do a 5/8" tenon into the handle. I still like the idea of the shorter tenon and am going try it on my next wrapless cue. I still really have not really heard any other draw backs of a shorter tenon.
 
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