A League That Encourages Improvement

BeiberLvr

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just thinking out loud here, but why couldn't something like this (with some adjustments) be successful?

A main league that is broken down into 3 tiers or divisions.

Amateur
Shortstop
Pro

Fees are combined among the 3 tiers, and then split accordingly: Amateur (20%), Shortstop (30%), Pro (50%). This will give players a reason to get better and move up. A player can only play in one tier at a time, and that is determined by their ranking, which would be a simplified Fargo-like system exclusive to the league.

Amateur - 300-499
Shortstop - 500-699
Pro - 700 or higher

Ratings would be adjusted each week using a very simple formula.

Winner = (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*20%-Winner's Rating
Loser = (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*5%-Loser's Rating

In the example below, we have a 412 losing to a 317.

412-317 = 95
95 * .20 = 19
95* .05 = 5
317+19 = 336 - winner's new ranking
412 - 5 = 407 loser's new ranking

Every player puts in the same amount of money, but it's where you are at the end of the session that will determine how much you get back.
 
Last edited:
Pool Players

BeiberLvr said:
Just thinking out loud here, but why couldn't something like this (with some adjustments) be successful?

A main league that is broken down into 3 tiers or divisions.

Amateur
Shortstop
Pro

Fees are combined among the 3 tiers, and then split accordingly: Amateur (20%), Shortstop (30%), Pro (50%). This will give players a reason to get better and move up. A player can only play in one tier at a time, and that is determined by their ranking, which would be a simplified Fargo-like system exclusive to the league.

Amateur - 300-499
Shortstop - 500-699
Pro - 700 or higher

Ratings would be adjusted each week using a very simple formula. (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*20% (rounded up to the nearest whole number) This number would then get added to the winner's ranking and subtracted from the loser's. So if a 317 beats a 412, it would look like this

412-317 = 95
95 * .20 = 19
317+19 = 336 - winner's new ranking
412 - 19 = 393 loser's new ranking

Every player puts in the same amount of money, but it's where you are at the end of the session that will determine how much you get back.
Click to expand...

You've got a nice idea except for the fact that you want to organize Pool Players, isn't that sort of like herding cats? lol
 
BeiberLvr said:
Just thinking out loud here, but why couldn't something like this (with some adjustments) be successful?

A main league that is broken down into 3 tiers or divisions.

Amateur
Shortstop
Pro

Fees are combined among the 3 tiers, and then split accordingly: Amateur (20%), Shortstop (30%), Pro (50%). This will give players a reason to get better and move up. A player can only play in one tier at a time, and that is determined by their ranking, which would be a simplified Fargo-like system exclusive to the league.

Amateur - 300-499
Shortstop - 500-699
Pro - 700 or higher

Ratings would be adjusted each week using a very simple formula. (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*20% (rounded up to the nearest whole number) This number would then get added to the winner's ranking and subtracted from the loser's. So if a 317 beats a 412, it would look like this

412-317 = 95
95 * .20 = 19
317+19 = 336 - winner's new ranking
412 - 19 = 393 loser's new ranking

Every player puts in the same amount of money, but it's where you are at the end of the session that will determine how much you get back.
Click to expand...

It appears you watched the Toby Chohan interview when he mentioned the APA........ Why sandbag to make it to Vegas to win a few thousand dollars.... Get better to win much more......
 
captainjko said:
It appears you watched the Toby Chohan interview when he mentioned the APA........ Why sandbag to make it to Vegas to win a few thousand dollars.... Get better to win much more......
Click to expand...

Didn't watch but I did read the thread.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Just thinking out loud here, but why couldn't something like this (with some adjustments) be successful?

A main league that is broken down into 3 tiers or divisions.

Amateur
Shortstop
Pro

Fees are combined among the 3 tiers, and then split accordingly: Amateur (20%), Shortstop (30%), Pro (50%). This will give players a reason to get better and move up. A player can only play in one tier at a time, and that is determined by their ranking, which would be a simplified Fargo-like system exclusive to the league.

Amateur - 300-499
Shortstop - 500-699
Pro - 700 or higher

Ratings would be adjusted each week using a very simple formula. (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*20% (rounded up to the nearest whole number) This number would then get added to the winner's ranking and subtracted from the loser's. So if a 317 beats a 412, it would look like this

412-317 = 95
95 * .20 = 19
317+19 = 336 - winner's new ranking
412 - 19 = 393 loser's new ranking

Every player puts in the same amount of money, but it's where you are at the end of the session that will determine how much you get back.
Click to expand...

This would probably mean that no weaker players would play at all more than they would try to get to the higher tiers.

I would like a league that does not have a rating restriction. Just started on a team with my son, because we are all good B players, our scores were adjusted so that despite winning all 3 10 ball matches, we actually lost LOL The other team scored one rack win to our 5 in each set, yet because we had an adjustment for skill, we lost.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Just thinking out loud here, but why couldn't something like this (with some adjustments) be successful?

A main league that is broken down into 3 tiers or divisions.

Amateur
Shortstop
Pro

Fees are combined among the 3 tiers, and then split accordingly: Amateur (20%), Shortstop (30%), Pro (50%). This will give players a reason to get better and move up. A player can only play in one tier at a time, and that is determined by their ranking, which would be a simplified Fargo-like system exclusive to the league.

Amateur - 300-499
Shortstop - 500-699
Pro - 700 or higher

Ratings would be adjusted each week using a very simple formula. (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*20% (rounded up to the nearest whole number) This number would then get added to the winner's ranking and subtracted from the loser's. So if a 317 beats a 412, it would look like this

412-317 = 95
95 * .20 = 19
317+19 = 336 - winner's new ranking
412 - 19 = 393 loser's new ranking

Every player puts in the same amount of money, but it's where you are at the end of the session that will determine how much you get back.
Click to expand...

IMO, the reason something like this wouldn't work is because at some point the people putting in the majority of the money (amateurs) and getting out 20% will wind up going away. Up for debate and I cannot speak to everyone's regions but I'd guess here in Colorado Springs CO the players are probably broken down like this: Amatuers - 70%, Shortstops - 25%, Pro's 5%.

Now, I understand the point of your league is to incentivize people to improve. But, I'm of the opinion that many of these people do want to improve and simply cannot. They've hit their ceiling. Now, as humans there's not much we hate more than failing so we'll come up with any/every reason under the sun why we're still an APA 4, 5, or whatever. What better reason than "to help out the team and keep our numbers low". Well, I call bullshit on most of the people who use this excuse. They simply don't, or can't, put in the time necessary to make it to the next level. I don't believe a couple extra bucks is going to change this mindset.
 
I like the idea and think it could work, I would tighten up the shortstop numbers and bring the pro Fargo rate number down quite a bit. Around this area you would end up with probably 1-2 shooters in the pro category because the better players usually dont shoot league. You could fix the payouts somewhat by limiting how far back you payout so the winners end up with more money, this would increase incentive to improve even more.
 
jojopiff said:
IMO, the reason something like this wouldn't work is because at some point the people putting in the majority of the money (amateurs) and getting out 20% will wind up going away. Up for debate and I cannot speak to everyone's regions but I'd guess here in Colorado Springs CO the players are probably broken down like this: Amatuers - 70%, Shortstops - 25%, Pro's 5%.

Now, I understand the point of your league is to incentivize people to improve. But, I'm of the opinion that many of these people do want to improve and simply cannot. They've hit their ceiling. Now, as humans there's not much we hate more than failing so we'll come up with any/every reason under the sun why we're still an APA 4, 5, or whatever. What better reason than "to help out the team and keep our numbers low". Well, I call bullshit on most of the people who use this excuse. They simply don't, or can't, put in the time necessary to make it to the next level. I don't believe a couple extra bucks is going to change this mindset.
Click to expand...

I agree with your opinion completely but for the heck of it lets take his scenario and run with it.

Lets use 2 apa 5's. One is ok with where he is at as far as skill level . The other is not satisfied and wants to be the best he can be .

They join a league like the op is talking about and lets use his formula and break down the pot at the end of the session like he proposed using 1,000.00.

5 a ....the one ok with his handicap and always comes in the money in the amateur division. 5 b decides he wants to improve and get into a higher bracket and win higher payouts. 5b starts spending several hours a week at the pool hall practicing.....buys several instructional videos.....and then decides to hire an instructor.

After spending a few thousand dollars he finally gets into the next higher bracket and occasionally places in the money.

At the end of the year 5a is money ahead . One thing people fail to realize is no matter how much you improve there is always somebody better than you
 
One thing that gets lost in a lot of league play whether it is APA or any other, is that most players play simply to play and socialize.

They enjoy going out and playing pool and having a couple drinks with friends. They don't care to get better, nor do they care what they are rated. They are not going to put in the effort to improve and they aren't looking to make money with it. Just keep their beer cold and let them know when it is their turn to shoot.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Just thinking out loud here, but why couldn't something like this (with some adjustments) be successful?

A main league that is broken down into 3 tiers or divisions.

Amateur
Shortstop
Pro

Fees are combined among the 3 tiers, and then split accordingly: Amateur (20%), Shortstop (30%), Pro (50%). This will give players a reason to get better and move up. A player can only play in one tier at a time, and that is determined by their ranking, which would be a simplified Fargo-like system exclusive to the league.

Amateur - 300-499
Shortstop - 500-699
Pro - 700 or higher

Ratings would be adjusted each week using a very simple formula. (Larger Rating-Smaller Rating)*20% (rounded up to the nearest whole number) This number would then get added to the winner's ranking and subtracted from the loser's. So if a 317 beats a 412, it would look like this

412-317 = 95
95 * .20 = 19
317+19 = 336 - winner's new ranking
412 - 19 = 393 loser's new ranking

Every player puts in the same amount of money, but it's where you are at the end of the session that will determine how much you get back.
Click to expand...

Sounds very interesting, and sounds like a good idea, with one exception. I think it should be Amateur (15%), Shortstop (35%), Pro (50%). Or, maybe just forget about the Pro 3 tier, and just do 2 tiers. Amateur (35%), and then a Masters tier (65%).
 
lorider said:
I agree with your opinion completely but for the heck of it lets take his scenario and run with it.

Lets use 2 apa 5's. One is ok with where he is at as far as skill level . The other is not satisfied and wants to be the best he can be .

They join a league like the op is talking about and lets use his formula and break down the pot at the end of the session like he proposed using 1,000.00.

5 a ....the one ok with his handicap and always comes in the money in the amateur division. 5 b decides he wants to improve and get into a higher bracket and win higher payouts. 5b starts spending several hours a week at the pool hall practicing.....buys several instructional videos.....and then decides to hire an instructor.

After spending a few thousand dollars he finally gets into the next higher bracket and occasionally places in the money.

At the end of the year 5a is money ahead . One thing people fail to realize is no matter how much you improve there is always somebody better than you
Click to expand...

You make a great point. I know that when I was in Vegas, playing the APA mini tournaments as a 5, I was so happy that I was not in the next group (with the 6's and 7's), because those guys were way ahead of my speed, and I would not have had a chance. As a 5, I won 6 out of 7 tournaments that I played in. I would have went home flat broke if I had been raised up to a 6. Some of us just do not have the "work ethic" to do the work to try to improve (even though we wish we could magically improve over night), or maybe some of us never really cared about improving, and just loved to play, instead of doing boring drills all day long.
 
Skippy27 said:
One thing that gets lost in a lot of league play whether it is APA or any other, is that most players play simply to play and socialize.

They enjoy going out and playing pool and having a couple drinks with friends. They don't care to get better, nor do they care what they are rated. They are not going to put in the effort to improve and they aren't looking to make money with it. Just keep their beer cold and let them know when it is their turn to shoot.
Click to expand...

You make a great point. Most league players just joint league and play in it for the love of the game. Most do not care about getting better, or care about the prize money. This is the reason I always thought league was so boring. It is nothing but a social hour for small tight nit groups of people. The last team I played on (years ago), I got played 1 single time out of all of the months that I showed up and sat there bored out of my mind for 3 hours. The captain knew I was by far the best player on his team, and I never understood why he never cared to play me. Eventually, I just stopped showing up. There was no point. I was just not part of their tight nit group of friends, and I think that is why I never got played. There are some (who play in the APA, or other league) that really do care to improve their game, but I think the % is very small.
 
Skippy27 said:
One thing that gets lost in a lot of league play whether it is APA or any other, is that most players play simply to play and socialize.

They enjoy going out and playing pool and having a couple drinks with friends. They don't care to get better, nor do they care what they are rated. They are not going to put in the effort to improve and they aren't looking to make money with it. Just keep their beer cold and let them know when it is their turn to shoot.
Click to expand...

It's not lost at all. Anyone with common sense knows what you say is spot on.

Those players would likely be in the Amateur tier. They can drink all they want and never have to worry about moving up or getting better. For the ones that do care, they have the option and the incentive (money) to do so.
 
lorider said:
I agree with your opinion completely but for the heck of it lets take his scenario and run with it.

Lets use 2 apa 5's. One is ok with where he is at as far as skill level . The other is not satisfied and wants to be the best he can be .

They join a league like the op is talking about and lets use his formula and break down the pot at the end of the session like he proposed using 1,000.00.

5 a ....the one ok with his handicap and always comes in the money in the amateur division. 5 b decides he wants to improve and get into a higher bracket and win higher payouts. 5b starts spending several hours a week at the pool hall practicing.....buys several instructional videos.....and then decides to hire an instructor.

After spending a few thousand dollars he finally gets into the next higher bracket and occasionally places in the money.

At the end of the year 5a is money ahead . One thing people fail to realize is no matter how much you improve there is always somebody better than you
Click to expand...

If 5a is constantly coming in the money in the amateur division, then he's obviously winning a lot of matches. If he's winning a lot of matches, then his ranking is going to go up.
 
Sandbagging. It's inevitable in all leagues, imo. But I have a possible remedy for my league.

Right now, in my OP

A win would net you 20% of the difference in rankings.
A loss would deduct 20% of the difference in rankings.

So what if a loss would only deduct 5% of the difference in rankings. Hypothetically if you always played players with the same difference in ranking, you would need to lose 4 matches to take away the points you gained from 1 win.

Therefore if you wanted to keep your ranking low, you'd have to lose a lot more than you win. And good luck cashing if you lose a lot.
 
BeiberLvr said:
It's not lost at all. Anyone with common sense knows what you say is spot on.

Those players would likely be in the Amateur tier. They can drink all they want and never have to worry about moving up or getting better. For the ones that do care, they have the option and the incentive (money) to do so.
Click to expand...

I like what you're saying. I think some of the formulas leagues use are completely off base. I am practicing all the time. I want to get better..., to complete on a higher level. I think since everything is tier based and your numbers look sound. It would be great.

Give it a name and let's start it up.
 
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