It is obvious to everybody who posts on AZB that JoeW is one of the brighter people who participates in the threads. If a pool school lesson went in one of his ears and out the other, I'm betting the lesson was poorly delivered.
A lesson from Irving Crane
- Thread starter JoeW
- Start date
It is obvious to everybody who posts on AZB that JoeW is one of the brighter people who participates in the threads. If a pool school lesson went in one of his ears and out the other, I'm betting the lesson was poorly delivered.
If this is how you treat your customers, I'm glad I never became one. :shocked:
In watching the video clips, I'm not sure if Crane's overall form is one that is worth emulating. As you noticed, his bridge hand often twists and turns but does remain on the table until the CB hits the OB. Crane does have a very short, almost non-existent pause, when delivering his stroke.
I also have a habit of jumping up too quickly on my shots. To correct this, a local pro advised me to try to stay down until the CB stops rolling. That might be something other people could try too.
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JoeyA, looks like I gotta spread it around before I can green you again :thumbup:...
NC. (no class).
Neil:
All of your points are valid, and as someone who does the occasional instruction himself, I've personally run into this. That is, where you'll enforce a point to a student, they look into your eyes and nod that they "get it," and probably even do the rest of the drills demonstrating that they understood the technique or point you were trying to convey. And of course, they'll get onto a public forum (or even talk amongst other pool players), "giving credit" for having learned the point or technique from watching something else or talking to someone else. Nothing will tick-off an instructor more than this. I can not only sympathize, but empathize(!) with Scott and yourself here.
However -- and this is a big one -- retaliation by getting on a public forum and dressing down the student (especially a well-written and contributory one, like JoeW) by saying the lessons went in one ear, and out there other, is the very definition of BAD FORM -- especially for a professional instructor, who is supposed to show by example. JoeW merely could've been saying that watching Crane in action "helped enforce and solidify" the knowledge he gained from Scott, but that point was unfortunately lost through JoeW's enthusiasm for the "knowledge strengthening."
While the point made by Scott was valid, the delivery was just wrong -- all wrong.
IMHO, of course,
-Sean
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Telling a person that they are incapable of learning something that is simple is another way of calling them stupid, and that's what Scott did. It would have been insensitive even if done in private, but far more acceptable.
The main issue is that Scott posted in a condescending, insulting manner toward JoeW publicly. In the world I live in, that's rude, insensitive, and unrefined. I strongly object to it when posters dare address other posters in this manner.
Public humiliation is not what this forum is about, and the day I conclude otherwise will be the very last day I post here.
I agree, Sean. I would like to add that my take on JoeW's comments were that they were more of an embellishment of the "freeze" process. I don't believe he was trying to do anything more than give a tip for a specific way to accomplish this with an actual physical non-movement.
I think we all need to watch this to get this thread back on track...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gkfVdrtLcRs
Best,
Mike
I could go into a tirade about how teachers aren't here to retaliate or even admonish their students, especially in a public forum. I won't even go into how effective the lesson was because I wasn't there. I could go into how as individuals, we sometimes learn better from certain teachers but I won't. There can be NO JUSTIFICATION for speaking condescendingly to another poster, especially a paying customer.
Scott's comments were ill-conceived and knowing Scott, I'm sure an apology will be forthcoming.
ALL of us, myself included, need to appreciate what we have in this forum and help to elevate it, rather than attempting to make it our dumping ground for our own personal frustrations and personal failings.
The naysayers of the forum have been properly admonished for their mean-spirited comments of the past and it seems like they have learned their lesson.
FWIW, I don't consider Scott a naysayer but we all could stand to improve our forum etiquette.
Scott's comments were ill-conceived and knowing Scott, I'm sure an apology will be forthcoming.
ALL of us, myself included, need to appreciate what we have in this forum and help to elevate it, rather than attempting to make it our dumping ground for our own personal frustrations and personal failings.
The naysayers of the forum have been properly admonished for their mean-spirited comments of the past and it seems like they have learned their lesson.
FWIW, I don't consider Scott a naysayer but we all could stand to improve our forum etiquette.
There is much I could say but choose to refrain. However, it is worthy of note that I have never had any instruction from Scott.
This thread is supposed to be about Irving Crane. The direction it has taken is unfortunate.
Good ideas are where you find them and Crane (among others) has a good idea here.
This thread is supposed to be about Irving Crane. The direction it has taken is unfortunate.
Good ideas are where you find them and Crane (among others) has a good idea here.
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Joey, With this naysayer propaganda, there's no need to instigate another battle reminiscent of the yeahsayer/naysayer aiming threads. Me thinks some of you yeahsayers could also stand to improve your forum etiquette.
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Then it's odd that he made the comment that he did. Thanks for the tip anyway, Joe! And, I could also say a ton
Further proof positive that if you're thinking of taking lessons, find a local instructor with whom you can progress over time. Skip the drive-by, hit-and-run guys.
If there's no instructor near you, remember that students travel to the good instructors, not the other way around!
You can use Sunscreen and still get burned.
If there's no instructor near you, remember that students travel to the good instructors, not the other way around!
You can use Sunscreen and still get burned.
A short Irving Crane trivia: We moved to South Carolina from Binghamton, NY in the fall of 1997. In about 2005 an acquaintance of mine opened an 8 table room in Spartanburg, SC. Some time after the room opened, I met a gentleman, probably in his early or mid '70s playing there. You could tell by watching him that he'd played a bit and his basics were definitely old school. I struck up a conversation with him and was amazed to learn that he had learned to play at Crane's room in Binghamton from the man himself!
There is no mention of Irving Crane owning a room in Binghamton, NY in his Wiki-pedia entry but I had heard old timers talk about it since I started playing in Binghamton in the early '70s. I don't know the dates of when it opened or closed but it was before he began selling cars in Rochester.
What was even more astounding was that he went to school with my mother-in-law, though a few grades ahead of her.
There is no mention of Irving Crane owning a room in Binghamton, NY in his Wiki-pedia entry but I had heard old timers talk about it since I started playing in Binghamton in the early '70s. I don't know the dates of when it opened or closed but it was before he began selling cars in Rochester.
What was even more astounding was that he went to school with my mother-in-law, though a few grades ahead of her.
Neil...To be fair, JoeW did not pay for pool school...he won it as a prize...so perhaps it didn't mean as much to him, as if he had paid for it. I also was not the teacher, but he got superior instruction, from a master instructor. You're right in that it's frustrating when a student doesn't get the message...but imo that's on the student, most of the time, rather than on the instructor. In this case, the "news" that JoeW was promoting as something new, is in fact not new at all, and is covered, as you noted, quite comprehensively in the SPF instruction. I should not have singled JoeW out here, at least publicly, and I apologize to JoeW for that.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Scott, this fake apology is just another dose of the arrogance and insensitivity in your original post.
Seems the charge to JoeW of stupidity has been replaced by a charge of apathy. Now we are asked to believe that, perhaps, JoeW didn't pay attention to the lessons because he'd won them for free. Wow, what a pile of nonsense. Do you think students who go to college on full scholarships don't work as hard because they attend for free? Those who show up, at their own discretion. to learn something, as a rule, make the effort to learn.
A good teacher understands that even a lesson well-delivered willl not always reach every student and, in some cases, will leave some room for interpretation. The generalization that failure is generally on the student is ridiculous, and evidences the arrogance of a teacher. In your world, a student that doesn't learn is either stupid or is not paying attention.
Just as inflammatory is the accusation that JoeW tried to pass off something as new that is not new. If you reread his original post, you will drop this false charge, too.
To sum, you have intensified the insult of JoeW here, and your apology rings very hollow with me.
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In case this situation should ever arise, here's an example of what you might have written:
Hi JoeW. I'm pleased to see that you continue to study the pool stroke and Irving Crane's is definitely one worth paying attention to. I know you attended our pool school and, based on your post, I think it possible that you misunderstood part of what we taught. If you'd like some clarification, I'd be happy to discuss this with you, and if you'd like to call me, here's my number xxx-xxx-xxxx.
Sincerely, Scott
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Yes, if you'd wanted to, you could have played the role of a concerned teacher willing to follow up with a graduate of your pool school. Instead, you chose to play the role of someone mortified by a student's apparent failure to comprehend the SPF material, and felt that publicly humiliating JoeW was the only way to promote an defend your instructional materials and methods.
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