A long comment on "aiming systems" ...

I read about Hal Houle system, CTE and pro1 systems. I also heard of fraction aiming and so on.

If there is a shot I am comfortable with, I don't even look for a contact point because I KNOW that shot. I don't even look at a pocket because I know it will go in.

If there is a shot I know I can make it 40 to 60 percent of the time then, I will look for a contact point on the OB, and after that find a CB contact point and I bend down. Then make sure my stroke is straight (especially the last back stroke) then I hit it.

If there is a shot I know I can make it 10-20 percent of the time, I do the same thing and hit it.

If aiming systems work for you, then great. In my opinion straight stroke is essential after you get down on the shot. Any pivoting, moving the cue messes me up. I will tell you this, even if I took a little more time while I am down I will most likely miss it.

So when I am down on the shot, the only thing I am worried about is the straight stroke because that's the only way I can make the ball.

I usually hit the tough shots center ball only, maybe a little top spin. If I KNOW the shot I can put anything on that cue ball.

So, better players KNOW more shots than I do in my opinion.
 
turaniko said:
I read about Hal Houle system, CTE and pro1 systems. I also heard of fraction aiming and so on.

If there is a shot I am comfortable with, I don't even look for a contact point because I KNOW that shot. I don't even look at a pocket because I know it will go in.

If there is a shot I know I can make it 40 to 60 percent of the time then, I will look for a contact point on the OB, and after that find a CB contact point and I bend down. Then make sure my stroke is straight (especially the last back stroke) then I hit it.

If there is a shot I know I can make it 10-20 percent of the time, I do the same thing and hit it.

If aiming systems work for you, then great. In my opinion straight stroke is essential after you get down on the shot. Any pivoting, moving the cue messes me up. I will tell you this, even if I took a little more time while I am down I will most likely miss it.

So when I am down on the shot, the only thing I am worried about is the straight stroke because that's the only way I can make the ball.

I usually hit the tough shots center ball only, maybe a little top spin. If I KNOW the shot I can put anything on that cue ball.

So, better players KNOW more shots than I do in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Let's make one thing PERFECTLY clear.

In all the systems Hal and others teach there is NO lateral movement of the cue once you are down on the shot.

NONE.

ZERO.

No one teaches you to move the cue in anything but a STRAIGHT line through the point you want to hit the cue ball at when you are in your set position.

So let's take that nonsense off the table if that's what you think an aiming system asks you to do.

Once you are addressing the cue ball and you know where you want to hit it then you stroke straight through that spot. That's fundamentals.

Visualizing WHERE to stand to get down on the ball is technique. One guy might say I use 73 lines of division, another might say I use reflections or shadows or both, one might say I see a ghost ball as real as a real ball, one might say I see a laser line pointing to the contact point, one might say I use portions of the ball overlapping...... there is at least a dozen ways to VISUALIZE the shot line, that line being the line that the cue ball MUST travel to make the shot.

So please stop thinking that ANY aiming system asks you to move the cue laterally once you are in the set position to address the cue ball. Once you follow the directions and you are facing the cue ball along the shot line you should hope that you have a good stroke so that you do NOT push the cue ball off that shot line.
 
I own the cte pro1 dvd by stan shuffet. If you watch it, it talks all about the lateral movement and the pivoting in the first part of dvd.

It is not as clear as you think.
 
turaniko said:
I own the cte pro1 dvd by stan shuffet. If you watch it, it talks all about the lateral movement and the pivoting in the first part of dvd.

It is not as clear as you think.
Click to expand...

Not after you are on the shot. I also own the DVD so you can post the timeline of the EXACT moment or moments where you claim Stan teaches you to move the cue after you are on the shot line.

Any movement of the cue or the player that is talked about and demonstrated on the dvd is ALL in service to getting into the shooting position where your cue is pointing at the cue ball BEFORE you take the shot.

Nowhere on the video does Stan say you should do anything but deliver the cue straight through the intended spot on the cue ball when you are in the shooting position.

Maybe you should consider spending more time studying the DVD. I know I can benefit from watching it again and I actually have some experience playing for money using what he teaches. Don't confuse the set up with the delivery.
 
Start from 19:00 to the 21:00 and more on that DVD..

They call it manual pivoting. and they move the cue to the left or to the right AFTER they bend down.

Sorry I was out and couldn't answer to you promptly.

Again, nothing against the system. It just doesn't work for me because of this reason. It might work for you and other people.

JB Cases said:
Not after you are on the shot. I also own the DVD so you can post the timeline of the EXACT moment or moments where you claim Stan teaches you to move the cue after you are on the shot line.

Any movement of the cue or the player that is talked about and demonstrated on the dvd is ALL in service to getting into the shooting position where your cue is pointing at the cue ball BEFORE you take the shot.

Nowhere on the video does Stan say you should do anything but deliver the cue straight through the intended spot on the cue ball when you are in the shooting position.

Maybe you should consider spending more time studying the DVD. I know I can benefit from watching it again and I actually have some experience playing for money using what he teaches. Don't confuse the set up with the delivery.
Click to expand...
 
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turaniko said:
Start from 19:00 to the 21:00 and more on that DVD..

They call it manual pivoting. and they move the cue to the left or to the right AFTER they bend down.

Sorry I was out and couldn't answer to you promptly.

Again, nothing against the system. It just doesn't work for me because of this reason. It might work for you and other people.
Click to expand...

Again they are NOT in the shooting position until the cue stops. Do you see any practice strokes until the cue stops at center ball? Only after the cue comes to center cue ball does the shooter begin the practice strokes and at that point there is NO lateral movement.

None.

Nor does Stan Shuffet ask the student to make any lateral movement after the shooter is in the final position to hit the cue ball.

And yes, you are speaking AGAINST the system for the WRONG REASON.

You are saying that it and Stan asks you to do something that it does not ask you to do.

It works for me because I follow the instructions and get into the SHOT line and then (attempt to) stroke straight through the cue ball (more or less because my stroke is not great).
 
Neil said:
I'd rather not post at all than help some of the people on here. Apparently, going by your posts, you have the same attitude. For being an instructor, you sure don't try and help anyone on here. Guess you don't want to be crapped on like the rest of us have been. You want the "old Neil"? Then do something about the trolls on here.

I see that on the main page you are endorsing Robin Dodsons DVD, By your standards that you put on me, I guess you are getting paid for that, huh??
Click to expand...

I'm not getting paid for anything. Robin and I are old friends, I will admit, but I ordered a quantity of her DVDs to sell in my shop before I had even viewed the product because she assured me on the telephone that she had put out an excellent video, and naturally, I believed her. After viewing the DVD, I was convinced she had a winner and I asked Mike Howerton if I could write a review on it. I truly believe my review of Robin's DVD was objective and fair, and merely pointed out that the information it contained was well worth the asking price. And making that statement benefits me in no way because nobody on AZBilliards will ever order one of Robin's DVDs from me when they can get it directly from her. And besides all that, Mike Howerton also welcomed my offer to write that review because it saved him from having to put something together himself, which is something he was wanting to do anyway since Robin is a PAID advertiser of his.

So can you now see by this how proper marketing is supposed to work? Robin pays for her advertising, so she definitely has a right to come on these boards and announce her product (which she has done). Mike is the media publisher here, so he has a right to order up a review. And I have the freedom to write an honest, objective review because I am not getting paid, or pressured, to write gushing sales pitches. And THAT is one of my services ("help") to the entire AZB community (which goes well beyond these boards, and far beyond any CTE threads).

I think I know what's bothering you, Neil. You seem to think CTE/Pro One has been treated unfairly here. Well, let me mention again that I purchased Stan's DVD and viewed it several times, and even though I still don't fully understand or use the system, I do not feel that I wasted my money on that purchase because I think there's some good stuff there that I will always have the opportunity to go back to and study again and again until it may finally click with me. I will also say here that Stan's DVD looks very professional and the presentation is exquisite. So why haven't I written a formal review saying as much for Stan? It's because I haven't been asked to, or felt compelled to, and probably never will until the all of the high-pressure, amateurish CTE marketing on these boards ceases, entirely.

And lastly (for now), it is not my responsibility, nor your's, nor even the mods, to rid the boards of trolls. I can't speak from personal knowledge, but I'm pretty sure that trolls are present on every discussion board on the internet, and no one can get rid of them because as long as they stay within the forum rules (albeit only technically), they are still entitled to voice their own opinions (albeit in weird ways). All-in-all, I think the mods here do a pretty good job of keeping things under control, especially considering that they are monitoring us; a bunch of hard-headed pool players. :embarrassed2:

Roger
 
JB Cases said:
Again they are NOT in the shooting position until the cue stops. Do you see any practice strokes until the cue stops at center ball? Only after the cue comes to center cue ball does the shooter begin the practice strokes and at that point there is NO lateral movement.

None.

Nor does Stan Shuffet ask the student to make any lateral movement after the shooter is in the final position to hit the cue ball.

And yes, you are speaking AGAINST the system for the WRONG REASON.

You are saying that it and Stan asks you to do something that it does not ask you to do.

It works for me because I follow the instructions and get into the SHOT line and then (attempt to) stroke straight through the cue ball (more or less because my stroke is not great).
Click to expand...

Ok do they bend down? Yes. Do they move their cue AFTER they bend down in that time frame I mentioned? Yes.

That bothers me. This is why it doesnt work for me. When I bend down, I try to deliver the cue straight. That is the ONLY job that I have to do.

This doesnt mean it shouldnt work for anyone else in the whole world. Maybe it works for everyone in the world..... but me.

I can see there is a lot of thought put in to that dvd. I appreciate the effort. It is just not the way I see things. That's all. I think it is a great product.
 
Dr. Dave's Satire of certain aiming systems, their users, proponents and teachers from his website:


I have invented an amazing and new aiming system called DAM that will revolutionize pool playing all around the world. You won't find DAM in any books, because it has just been recently invented. But rest assured ... all future pool books will present DAM in its full glory. DAM is the best and most complete aiming system, that also contributes to correct body alignment, that has ever been devised. Most of the pros use it, especially the Filipino players ... that's why they are so good. DAM works on every shot, regardless of the distance between the balls, or the angle and distance to the pocket. The best thing about DAM is you don't even need to know or see where the pocket is. Just align and pivot, and the ball just goes in the hole. When a good player uses the system, it is impossible to tell ... it will just look like they are naturally pocketing balls. That's when you know they are using DAM!

Try to prove that DAM doesn't work ... you can't, because it does work. If you can't make it work, it is because you really don't understand it. If you ask a pro if he or she uses DAM, and he or she says he or she doesn't, it is because he or she doesn't want you to know his or her secrets. The DAM system will radically improve the shot-making abilities of those who spend the time to learn it. DAM will eventually become the "aiming standard" and will significantly accelerate your learning curve. There are those who will eventually learn the system, and there are those who will not, and be beaten by those who do. If you don't think DAM works, it is because you haven't had personalized lessons with somebody who truly understands it. I make almost every shot with this system ... I rarely miss. Isn't that proof of how good it is? Don't you want to be as good as me? If you want to master the DAM system, you must visit me in person and pay outrageous sums of money to learn all of the required intricacies.

It only takes two days to learn DAM, and if you practice it for two months, you will start winning tournaments. If you can't make it work, it is because you don't have enough "visual intelligence," in which case you are hopeless. Don't ask me to describe the system in words or with diagrams, because this can't be done; although, I do have lots of fancy words and phrases to describe various parts of the system ... aren't you impressed? If you don't believe in my system or if you doubt the validity of my approach, you will be banished by all of my followers.

Probably the most amazing fact about DAM is that it works for all types of shots, not just cut shots. It also gives you the correct line of aim for combos, caroms, and banks. And you don't need to adjust for speed, English, throw, or spin-transfer effects. All of the adjustment happen automatically with DAM.

If you want to learn the magic of DAM, I am currently offering exclusive private lessons. I know this might sound ridiculous, but I must be clear on this matter: My students are not allowed to share with anybody anything they learn. They are required to sign a special nondisclosure agreement that binds them for life. People are willing to openly discuss and share everything they learn from my VEPS series; but if and when I ever release the DAM-DVD, the information must not be disclosed by any viewers; otherwise, they risk exposing themselves to extreme wrath and persecution.



:D


A little humor goes a long way in illustrating the absurdity of some of their arguments and the things they say.


Well done!



SCIENCE trumps BULLSHIT
 
Since this thread has been hijacked into a CTE discussion...I might as well comment on that. Having studied CTE, and carefully analyzed it geometrically, on paper and in practice ....


What CTE really is, is more of a SET UP system, rather than an AIMING system. It's actually not too bad for helping a player set up. The center to edge line will get a player's body close to where they need to be. Close enough, that with FEEL based judgement and alignment, they will be on a good line to aim the shot.


However, I feel that needing such a system for setup just points to big problems in a person's game. I learned to line up on the shot using my foot. Meaning, my stroke arm/hand, and my right foot/leg (I'm right handed) gets on the line, or just to the LEFT of the line of aim. Then I get down and "step into" the shot. I learned to do that on my own. I also read it in several places which reinforced what I had learned. I didn't take me long to do so. Others learn that as part of standard pool education. I haven't bought a BCA rule book in over a decade, but it used to be printed even there! It's basics...fundamentals.


I think most players of an intermediate level should already be able to do that, do it naturally/intuitively/automatically almost every single time...and not need a system to get them straight. If they do, fine. Let's say there's an odd shot that every time you get down on, it doesn't "feel" or "seem" right.

Break out CTE if that's your preference. It will help you get close to the line. Once down on the shot, you can't say or doubt that you're way off. But you still have to aim, you still have to adjust.


I even said it in the first post of this thread, it isn't worthless or useless.
 
good points

very interesting points were made by you and others and i for one use shane van boeing aiming system but i now do it unconsciously, but i totally agree without basic fundamentals of a smooth stroke u will never be able to reach any type of level of play and practice practice practice

HUD
 
Neil said:
Then do something about the trolls on here.
Click to expand...


Can you please name the usernames of those who you feel are the trolls?


I certainly hope you are not referring to me. I started this thread in a respectful manner. I even started the opening post stating that I did not want to derail or ruin anyone's aiming thread by posting my thoughts in there. So instead, I created a skeptic's thread on the subject. Dedicated to what I wrote in that opening post. How is this troll behavior?

And, lo and behold, it was the aiming systems mafia that showed up, and began attacking several users, being hostile and using caustic language. Perhaps those are the trolls you're referring to?

Hypocritically and ironically, the aiming systems mafia feels they are the victims by going on and on about how we skeptics are after them - yet they are crying and ranting in a SKEPTIC'S thread! Who is trashing who's ideas here? Who is hounding who here?


I'm not naive, I had a feeling from the start this would devolve into a CTE thread. The discussion on the subject I started has pretty much ended. Although, not due to an exhaustion of content, but because I assume no one has a decent rebuttal to some of my thoughts.


Looking back, my main intent was mindset oriented. I'm trying to put forth a certain mindset. People who want to improve, aren't doing themselves a great service being obsessed with aiming systems or thinking of them as THE solution. There's more to the game. Just like my "Custom Cue Mythology" thread that pissed off a lot of people real bad, when you tell people their ideas are superstitions, not based on facts....they then have a bad reaction. Sorry for that. Lying to one's self will only work so long. Eventually the results will tell the truth. The guys working hard and EARNING a great stroke, as well as aiming, mindset and everything else...will always stomp the DVD buying aiming system magic-bullet diet-pill junkies. Being based on reality is always better. Being 100% truthful with one's self is a POWERFUL thing to have. Huge.



Recently, in a league match I played like shit. My focus was terrible. I was doing something bizarre with my stroke that I could not figure out or straighten out even with drills on a practice table. I was agitated. Even my decisions on the table were awful. I was making excuses in my head. All kinds of excuses. Even my cue didn't feel comfortable. Yes, I was even on the verge of blaming my cue! That kind of thinking is weakness. It creeps in little by little IF you let it.


I played awful because of ME. I have no one, nor anything to blame but myself. Once I have the reason, I can then work on the problem. I forced myself to be honest, and throw away every single excuse and be real about why certain things happened.


You know what is sickening? When a player plays great, then they come on this forum and talk about how it was their new cue! Think about that. They played great, yet give CREDIT to the cue??? Likewise, when they play bad, they blame other things but themselves. Unless they own a $5,000 custom, at which point they blame themselves, but credit the cue when everything is working right.


Why do I bring all this up? Because it relates to the overall approach to a person's game and their quest for improvement. What I see a lot of aiming system junkies do is a form of denial, or lying to themselves, or misplaced credit, or misplaced blame. All of which is an OBSTACLE to improvement. Say a player misses because their aim is off. So be it. That does happen, never said it doesn't. But the talk about aim is so wildly disproportionate to the talk about STROKE and other things. Why?


Some of the best teachers of pool, when dealing with newbies, find themselves having to enlighten the newbie that it wasn't their aim that was off, but that they have no stroke. Newbies almost always blame aim. Because they are ignorant about stroke. It gets taken for granted. Or they just automatically think that a few months of play, or joining a bar league has been enough for them to develop a straight stroke. What's making them miss is bad aim. That's what I'm trying to say. It might be some times sure, but really, it's bad stroke almost all the time.


It's difficult to get people to understand how critical it is to have a good stroke, and how difficult it is to achieve a world class stroke. It truly is a special thing, and one of the big factors that separates the masses of amateurs, from the elites who are pros. Sadly, quite a few intermediate and even advanced players on this forum, judging from their comments, down play stroke. Shame on them, they ought to know better.



Excuses are easy. Truth is painful.
 
Grilled Cheese said:
Since this thread has been hijacked into a CTE discussion...I might as well comment on that. Having studied CTE, and carefully analyzed it geometrically, on paper and in practice ....


What CTE really is, is more of a SET UP system, rather than an AIMING system. It's actually not too bad for helping a player set up. The center to edge line will get a player's body close to where they need to be. Close enough, that with FEEL based judgement and alignment, they will be on a good line to aim the shot.


However, I feel that needing such a system for setup just points to big problems in a person's game. I learned to line up on the shot using my foot. Meaning, my stroke arm/hand, and my right foot/leg (I'm right handed) gets on the line, or just to the LEFT of the line of aim. Then I get down and "step into" the shot. I learned to do that on my own. I also read it in several places which reinforced what I had learned. I didn't take me long to do so. Others learn that as part of standard pool education. I haven't bought a BCA rule book in over a decade, but it used to be printed even there! It's basics...fundamentals.


I think most players of an intermediate level should already be able to do that, do it naturally/intuitively/automatically almost every single time...and not need a system to get them straight. If they do, fine. Let's say there's an odd shot that every time you get down on, it doesn't "feel" or "seem" right.

Break out CTE if that's your preference. It will help you get close to the line. Once down on the shot, you can't say or doubt that you're way off. But you still have to aim, you still have to adjust.(to squirt, swerve, CIS, speed control, and a half dozen other influences)...Good luck, to all who think different..


I even said it in the first post of this thread, it isn't worthless or useless Yes it is G.C...you are being polite !.
Click to expand...


Absolutely, the most common sense approach, on how best to to aim, I have ever seen in any of these convoluteted, argumentative A.S. threads. If you guys were smart, you would canonize, Grilled Cheese...He has put into words, what 30,000 A.S.S. posts have not been able to do !!!

Unlike the 'yeahsayer's', who just blindly insist, that there is a SECRET infallable system to aiming, Mr. Cheese calls it like it is !...Any, and all aiming systems, are only as good as the individuals natural ability to apply them...If you have that talent, trust me, engineering principles, and science, will NOT apply.

Those who think, that the short cut to making balls go in the hole, are sadly disalusioned, and are just wasting their time, in their quest to be the 'best they can be'..(AKA, pool nirvana)

JoeyA, John B, Spider, and all the A.S.S. guys, should pay attention to Grilled Cheese...He will soon be able to give any of you, huge weight...While you continue to struggle to make APA 4...

As I have said a thousand times...there are NO shotcuts. (except maybe in your mind)..:help:
 
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turaniko said:
Ok do they bend down? Yes. Do they move their cue AFTER they bend down in that time frame I mentioned? Yes.

That bothers me. This is why it doesnt work for me. When I bend down, I try to deliver the cue straight. That is the ONLY job that I have to do.

This doesnt mean it shouldnt work for anyone else in the whole world. Maybe it works for everyone in the world..... but me.

I can see there is a lot of thought put in to that dvd. I appreciate the effort. It is just not the way I see things. That's all. I think it is a great product.
Click to expand...

Ok. Then we are clear that what bothers you is not what you thought it was. Watch the rest of the video and you will see how to go from a standing position to a shooting position in one motion.




www.jbcases.com
 
Grilled Cheese said:
Can you please name the usernames of those who you feel are the trolls?

I certainly hope you are not referring to me. I started this thread in a respectful manner. I even started the opening post stating that I did not want to derail or ruin anyone's aiming thread by posting my thoughts in there. So instead, I created a skeptic's thread on the subject. Dedicated to what I wrote in that opening post. How is this troll behavior?

And, lo and behold, it was the aiming systems mafia that showed up, and began attacking several users, being hostile and using caustic language. Perhaps those are the trolls you're referring to?

Hypocritically and ironically, the aiming systems mafia feels they are the victims by going on and on about how we skeptics are after them - yet they are crying and ranting in a SKEPTIC'S thread! Who is trashing who's ideas here? Who is hounding who here?

I'm not naive, I had a feeling from the start this would devolve into a CTE thread. The discussion on the subject I started has pretty much ended. Although, not due to an exhaustion of content, but because I assume no one has a decent rebuttal to some of my thoughts.
Click to expand...
Grilled Cheese, Thank you for pointing out via your very logical arguments that the real trolls of this thread are the aiming systems mafia.
 
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PoolSharkAllen said:
Grilled Cheese, Thank you for pointing out via your very logical arguments that the real trolls of this thread are the aiming systems mafia.
Click to expand...

Let me add Pool Shark Allen, to the growing list of "Common Sense" guys..:thumbup: ("naysayer's" is such a cruel tag)
 
SJDinPHX said:
Absolutely, the most common sense approach, on how best to to aim, I have ever seen, in any of these convoluteted, argumetative A.S. threads. If you guys were smart, you would canonize, Grilled Cheese...He has put into words, what 30,000 A.S.S. posts have not been able to do !!!

Unlike the 'yeahsayer's', who just blindly insist, that there is a SECRET infallable system to aiming, Mr. Cheese calls it like it is !...Any, and all aiming systems, are only as good as the individuals natural ability to apply them...If you have that talent, trust me, engineering principles, and science, will NOT apply.

Those who think, that the short cut to making balls go in the hole, are sadly disalusioned, and are just wasting their time, in their quest to be the 'best they can be'...

JoeyA, John B, Spider, and all the A.S.S. guys, should pay attention to Grilled Cheese...He will soon be able to give any of you, huge weight...While you continue to struggle to make APA 4...

As I have said a thousand times...there are NO shotcuts. (except maybe in your mind)..:help:
Click to expand...

Put that Yukon Jack away man!
 
SJDinPHX said:
Absolutely, the most common sense approach, on how best to to aim, I have ever seen, in any of these convoluteted, argumetative A.S. threads. If you guys were smart, you would canonize, Grilled Cheese...He has put into words, what 30,000 A.S.S. posts have not been able to do !!!

Unlike the 'yeahsayer's', who just blindly insist, that there is a SECRET infallable system to aiming, Mr. Cheese calls it like it is !...Any, and all aiming systems, are only as good as the individuals natural ability to apply them...If you have that talent, trust me, engineering principles, and science, will NOT apply.

Those who think, that the short cut to making balls go in the hole, are sadly disalusioned, and are just wasting their time, in their quest to be the 'best they can be'...

JoeyA, John B, Spider, and all the A.S.S. guys, should pay attention to Grilled Cheese...He will soon be able to give any of you, huge weight...While you continue to struggle to make APA 4...

As I have said a thousand times...there are NO shotcuts. (except maybe in your mind)..:help:
Click to expand...

I will be at the Super Billiards Expo and then several weeks in Oklahoma City after that if anyone in this thread up to this point wants to give me HUGE weight. I will probably lose but with HUGE weight I will certainly try my best using an aiming system as my "crutch".
 
JB Cases said:
I will be at the Super Billiards Expo and then several weeks in Oklahoma City after that if anyone in this thread up to this point wants to give me HUGE weight. I will probably lose but with HUGE weight I will certainly try my best using an aiming system as my "crutch".
Click to expand...

John, I cannot be there, but I will send a dozen or so of my beginner student's, to relieve you of your $$$$..(as long as you are realistic about 'HUGE' weight)...I was thinking maybe 9/6, in one pocket...Deal ?..:p

Seriously, glad to see you are coming to your former homeland...Stop by Phonix if you get a chance, I ain't dead yet..:p
 
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