A long comment on "aiming systems" ...

Can you please name the usernames of those who you feel are the trolls?


I certainly hope you are not referring to me. I started this thread in a respectful manner. I even started the opening post stating that I did not want to derail or ruin anyone's aiming thread by posting my thoughts in there. So instead, I created a skeptic's thread on the subject. Dedicated to what I wrote in that opening post. How is this troll behavior?

And, lo and behold, it was the aiming systems mafia that showed up, and began attacking several users, being hostile and using caustic language. Perhaps those are the trolls you're referring to?

Hypocritically and ironically, the aiming systems mafia feels they are the victims by going on and on about how we skeptics are after them - yet they are crying and ranting in a SKEPTIC'S thread! Who is trashing who's ideas here? Who is hounding who here?


I'm not naive, I had a feeling from the start this would devolve into a CTE thread. The discussion on the subject I started has pretty much ended. Although, not due to an exhaustion of content, but because I assume no one has a decent rebuttal to some of my thoughts.


Looking back, my main intent was mindset oriented. I'm trying to put forth a certain mindset. People who want to improve, aren't doing themselves a great service being obsessed with aiming systems or thinking of them as THE solution. There's more to the game. Just like my "Custom Cue Mythology" thread that pissed off a lot of people real bad, when you tell people their ideas are superstitions, not based on facts....they then have a bad reaction. Sorry for that. Lying to one's self will only work so long. Eventually the results will tell the truth. The guys working hard and EARNING a great stroke, as well as aiming, mindset and everything else...will always stomp the DVD buying aiming system magic-bullet diet-pill junkies. Being based on reality is always better. Being 100% truthful with one's self is a POWERFUL thing to have. Huge.



Recently, in a league match I played like shit. My focus was terrible. I was doing something bizarre with my stroke that I could not figure out or straighten out even with drills on a practice table. I was agitated. Even my decisions on the table were awful. I was making excuses in my head. All kinds of excuses. Even my cue didn't feel comfortable. Yes, I was even on the verge of blaming my cue! That kind of thinking is weakness. It creeps in little by little IF you let it.


I played awful because of ME. I have no one, nor anything to blame but myself. Once I have the reason, I can then work on the problem. I forced myself to be honest, and throw away every single excuse and be real about why certain things happened.


You know what is sickening? When a player plays great, then they come on this forum and talk about how it was their new cue! Think about that. They played great, yet give CREDIT to the cue??? Likewise, when they play bad, they blame other things but themselves. Unless they own a $5,000 custom, at which point they blame themselves, but credit the cue when everything is working right.


Why do I bring all this up? Because it relates to the overall approach to a person's game and their quest for improvement. What I see a lot of aiming system junkies do is a form of denial, or lying to themselves, or misplaced credit, or misplaced blame. All of which is an OBSTACLE to improvement. Say a player misses because their aim is off. So be it. That does happen, never said it doesn't. But the talk about aim is so wildly disproportionate to the talk about STROKE and other things. Why?


Some of the best teachers of pool, when dealing with newbies, find themselves having to enlighten the newbie that it wasn't their aim that was off, but that they have no stroke. Newbies almost always blame aim. Because they are ignorant about stroke. It gets taken for granted. Or they just automatically think that a few months of play, or joining a bar league has been enough for them to develop a straight stroke. What's making them miss is bad aim. That's what I'm trying to say. It might be some times sure, but really, it's bad stroke almost all the time.


It's difficult to get people to understand how critical it is to have a good stroke, and how difficult it is to achieve a world class stroke. It truly is a special thing, and one of the big factors that separates the masses of amateurs, from the elites who are pros. Sadly, quite a few intermediate and even advanced players on this forum, judging from their comments, down play stroke. Shame on them, they ought to know better.



Excuses are easy. Truth is painful.

And yet not one aiming system advocate has ever said that the stroke and fundamentals are not important.

Not one.

You want us to name the trolls?

How about you try publishing EXACT quotes with links where any of us have downplayed the stroke? Shame on you for putting words in their mouth.

You know what's super funny though? As much as YOU downplay the importance of AIMING there are a lot of products on the market which exist to help people see the supposedly simple ghost ball. This method is SO EASY that there are more devices out there to assist people in 'seeing' it than any other training device.

It's so unimportant that you and other trolls have to spend SO MUCH TIME arguing against it. You MAKE UP, that you INVENT things that people didn't say to bolster your argument AS IF those who like to try out various aiming methods have said that aiming can replace the need for a good stroke. You make it up.

You want painful truth? How about looking at your motivations here? Then you will find some really painful truth.

If you think you will STOMP me then lets play some. Since you are now completely self-aware and free of all excuses you ought to be an amazing player. I will try you some completely even with no weight and we can see where it goes. I am probably the weakest of the players on this forum who advocate aiming systems so you ought to have zero problem stomping me.

Lets get it on and just play some. Lets see if you're right. Since you seem to have some crazy idea that whoever likes an aiming system IS not working on their stroke, not working on their stance, not working on their strategy, not working on their touch, not working on their speed control, then you ought to have no problem.

Unreal. How far you guys will go to PREVENT other people from trying out things on the table is what is shameful and despicable.
 
John, I cannot be there, but I will send a dozen or so of my beginner student's, to relieve you of your $$$$..(as long as you are realistic about 'HUGE' weight)...I was thinking maybe 9/6, in one pocket...Deal ?..:p


This guy is an instructor? wow!!
 
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John, I cannot be there, but I will send a dozen or so of my beginner student's, to relieve you of your $$$$..(as long as you are realistic about 'HUGE' weight)...I was thinking maybe 9/6, in one pocket...Deal ?..:p

Seriously, glad to see you are coming to your former homeland...Stop by Phonix if you get a chance, I ain't dead yet..:p

9:6 isn't huge weight. 17:4 is HUGE weight.

Since I am not dippy and can't bet dippy-sized bullets I will settle for taking 12:4 against anyone you send for up to 500 per game and will guarantee to play five ahead without adjustment. Only Scott Frost is excluded. But if you want to send your student Darren Appleton then he can get played that way.

I am going to try to make it to Phoenix because there are a few people beside yourself that I want to see. Of course I have to keep the dates secret so that no one sends homeland security after me. I will be HAPPY to donate some to you and learn the game from someone who knows it. If you want to berate me about how I aim then that's fine, just teach me some moves, ain't no system for those.
 
No..This guy is an ex-pool player, of some small reknown...Who are you...:confused:

PS..Tell 'em John...

San Jose Dick was beating up on Aiming System Champions long before the internet was merely a memo on Al Gore's desk. He has traveled the roads and humbled quite a few of the big fishes in their small ponds. Back in his day real players didn't use books or lessons, they played. They got on the table and played. They didn't talk about it they put up the cash and they played. The only system some of them used to play "better" was a color system to keep the pills straight.

Nowadays if you want to have ANY chance to beat him all you have to do is make a game and when it's your shot you have to explain your aiming system before you shoot. That will put him on tilt and either he will run the set on you or brain you with the Yukon Jack bottle. But NOT if it's got liquor in it because SJD will never waste a drop of good liquor on an Aiming System Sucker :-)
 
The Buffet of Learning.

Imagine you go to a party and there is a grand buffet. So many interesting food choices that you have never seen much less tried.

You reach for one and someone stops you. They say don't eat that it's terrible. You say why is is terrible? They say because it's not the color of normal food anyone can see that. You think about it and ask them if they tried it and they say no, they just know it's terrible. So you reach for it again and someone else steps in and says that guy is right it's terrible and you don't need it anyway with all this food you know to eat. So don't even try it, stick with what you know.

So you ask him if he tried it, he says well I smelled it and it didn't smell good to me so I know it must not work. So you reach for it again, and yet another person stops you. You ask what the problem is now and that person says they know the caterer and doesn't like their food and so the it must not be good.

So you constantly wander up and down the buffet line wishing to try some of the things you have never tried and every time you do someone blocks you.

And the buffet of learning is apparently the same way when it comes to aiming systems. No matter what the system there is always a blocker out there who wants to say that it's not good, not needed, not worth trying.

Well, they say that anything worth having is not easy to get. Maybe the blockers are needed to test your dedication to learning. Because the way I see it is that there is NO HARM in trying out a technique to play pool.

No harm.

But there is harm in not trying. Because not every person sees things the same. Plenty of studies show that people see things differently. Could be physical in that people's vision is not perfect, depth perception varies from person to person, dominant eye issues, could be neurological with some inability to focus, could be psychological in that people THINK about what they are doing differently.

So by not trying different approaches you limit yourself to less and less choices. In life there is almost never only one way to do something.

What's the best way to learn to stroke?

All these blockers want to make the red herring argument that aiming system proponents say that the stroke doesn't matter........which they don't say............but how can you learn to stroke?

By hitting a million balls? So blockers tell us how to learn to stroke.

What buffet items do you allow us to eat?
 
San Jose Dick was beating up on Aiming System Champions long before the internet was merely a memo on Al Gore's desk. He has traveled the roads and humbled quite a few of the big fishes in their small ponds. Back in his day real players didn't use books or lessons, they played. They got on the table and played. They didn't talk about it they put up the cash and they played. The only system some of them used to play "better" was a color system to keep the pills straight.

Nowadays if you want to have ANY chance to beat him all you have to do is make a game and when it's your shot you have to explain your aiming system before you shoot. That will put him on tilt and either he will run the set on you or brain you with the Yukon Jack bottle. But NOT if it's got liquor in it because SJD will never waste a drop of good liquor on an Aiming System Sucker :-)

Thank you John...I appreciate those kind words..(I think)..I am now putting you in charge of dispatching any newbie's, banger's,
or APA 2 player's,..who would cast aspersions upon my credentials...In the unlikely event you cannot perform these duties, I hereby appoint JoeyA, as your successor...:) (third in command, would be Spidey, or Barrack Obama)

Are we going for a record on A.S.S. threads ? Closing in on 400..Still about 50/50... Yea and Nay !

PS..The Yukon Jack is flowing...Its my doggies birthday..Woo-hoo, 'cause celebre'....coincidently, his name is Joey !...:p

356pdk.jpg
 
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And yet not one aiming system advocate has ever said that the stroke and fundamentals are not important.

Not one.

You want us to name the trolls?

How about you try publishing EXACT quotes with links where any of us have downplayed the stroke? Shame on you for putting words in their mouth.

Strawman argument. I already addressed this a few pages back.


You know what's super funny though? As much as YOU downplay the importance of AIMING there are a lot of products on the market which exist to help people see the supposedly simple ghost ball. This method is SO EASY that there are more devices out there to assist people in 'seeing' it than any other training device.


Ghost ball is geometrically accurate and geometrically perfect. It is completely sound. Unfortunately, it's not a good practical aiming system, since visualizing an entire ball that doesn't exist is difficult to do. People making devices to assist in visualization of ghost ball are just as guilty of wasting player's times as some other proponents of other aiming systems.

Simplest and best is probably "contact point" or "spot on the ball" type systems. Sure, have to "feel" and compensate since that's not exactly where the CB hits the object ball. But I'm pretty sure no one ever said contact point aiming systems provides a conclusive and definitive line of aim free from adjustment or compensation. Since CTE requires "feel" and some adjustment and compensation...it's no better.


It's so unimportant that you and other trolls


How am I a troll? You're the one that came into this thread and has been hostile with several people. You're the one that has been taking it off topic with all your "wanna bet" bravado. You're the one derailing it by personalizing it. Newsflash JB, this isn't a CTE thread. At least it wasn't. One of your first posts in this thread was a CTE video of yours! If you're looking for a troll, you don't need to search far.


You want painful truth? How about looking at your motivations here? Then you will find some really painful truth.


My motivations? Let's see...

1. Discussion, this is a discussion board after all.

2. Seeking enlightenment. Some smart people here, I learn from both sides of the debate. Even from you.

3. Trying to offer up an alternative view point from all the kool aid drinking regarding aiming systems.


And maybe a few others? Nothing sinister though.


If you think you will STOMP me then lets play some.


Well, that didn't take long. You have not progressed in your ability to debate or discuss an issue in the last 15 years that I've read your posts on the internet. You always default to challenges.

If a non CTE user stomps you, will you give up CTE forever and get on the internet with a video disavowing it and advocating all others do the same?

If you stomp some drunk APA SL2 using CTE, does that validate your claims as the truth?


Since you're making this personal, allow me to HELP you with your THINKING. While you think you may be validating yourself, you may very well be invalidating what might very well be truth by subjecting it to your own flawed, illogical and idiotic standard. Note, your standard is idiotic, I didn't say you were. Please note the difference. Or is your theory true if you win, but if you lose, you're still right? Just curious?


Besides...I never said I'd stomp you. Please produce a quote from me, from this thread where I said that. Otherwise, it is YOU who is putting words in other people's mouth.


Since you are now completely self-aware and free of all excuses you ought to be an amazing player.


Well, I've always been self-aware ...at least as far back as I can remember :p

I'm not 100% free of all excuses. But I am trying. I try and beat them down like the little demons that they are. That way, I get down to total reality and face up to what I need to face up to. This helps me improve. Rather than believe in BS and stagnate like most players. I can address REAL problems, as opposed to made up problems.


I am not an amazing player, never said I was. I am a grilled cheese player, not a Kobe beef player.


Since you seem to have some crazy idea that whoever likes an aiming system IS not working on their stroke, not working on their stance, not working on their strategy, not working on their touch, not working on their speed control, then you ought to have no problem.


Quite the contrary Mr. B, in your video you made the shots that you made because you already have good aim, fundamentals and stroke. That's my assessment. I don't think you made them because of CTE. Even though you may think so. Now if you were worse before CTE, perhaps CTE did something for you. What CTE did not do for you is tell you where to aim. Because that has been geometrically DEBUNKED. Therefore, CTE must be giving you confidence, or making you more methodical. Something. It's doing something for you, but that something isn't aiming. Some of it may also be placebo effect.

Speaking of confidence, remember the "Custom Cue Mythology" thread? Not a single person could prove that their custom cue, because it is custom-made, helps them make balls on the basis of it's construction. Most people would simply state it gave them "confidence" ...

Likewise, an "aiming system" that does not AIM...can very well provide other benefits. Perhaps one of them is confidence or other intangibles. This was never disputed.


Unreal. How far you guys will go to PREVENT other people from trying out things on the table is what is shameful and despicable.


When I read your posts, I cannot help but feel like I am reading someone who is quite emotional, borderline hysterical. Who is "preventing" anyone from doing anything? Am I putting shackles on people's mind or something? Are you claiming I am some kind of book burner?

Good grief! I love the fact that there is a wide open debate on all these things. I am extremely glad that CTE is now out in the open. Now that it is in the open, it can be aired out. Bring everything into the sunlight. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Nothing is better for getting closer to the truth than openness. By all means, expose one's self to everything in pool, just don't accept it because someone says so, that is, if you're wise! Today, I wouldn't think CTE is not a real aiming system if I didn't take the time to understand it and analyze it. I suggest others do the same. How is this "preventing" anyone from trying out things on the table?

If anyone is trying to shut down the doors on people, put blinders on people - it's people like you who attack the skeptics, the very people who are trying to ask questions and get answers! CTE people want to teach a system. Skeptics actually want to know how and why it works. If CTE supporters wanted to know how or why it works, they would be doing what we are doing and asking the same questions. Instead, they accept it and then proceed to try and teach others in lieu of proving it. CTE is like a religion.


I think I will lecture you a little bit about this, because you obviously need it. It is related to science. In science, skepticism is not rejected or abhorred, it is WELCOMED. Bring it on. Scrutiny is loved. Testing. Analysis. Why? Because no one wants to believe in a theory or idea that is wrong! That sucks. Remember when doctors thought ulcers were caused by stress? Oops...now they know its caused by bacteria. Or better yet, hundreds of years ago people were sick because of evil spirits within them!


Yes, you heard me right. It's better to be attacked, criticized, scrutinized etcetera. Because IF, if your theory or idea holds up against all that, then it prevails as TRUTH. And that's what people seek, truth (I'd hope). Those that don't are zealots.

It has happened where a scientist had a theory for most of their life, literally they'd gone "all in" with it, only to be proved wrong after their whole life. And that scientist did not scream and cry foul. But thanked those who proved the theory wrong, for that is where advancement comes from and how truth is found. No one thinks of scientists like that as chumps or idiots after the fact. They are respected and valued too, as people who helped find out what is true and what is not. As Edison said (paraphrase), he didn't fail 1,000 times, he found 1,000 ways not to make a light bulb.


All that said, if your precious CTE is so true, so good, so right, and it works. What are you worried about? You ought to WELCOME all and any scrutiny. Because if it is what you say it is, it should hold up and ultimately prevail. And when / if it does, even then you shouldn't say "I told you so" ..but instead, thank those people who scrutinized it, because they, through their failed scrutiny and testing, served to vet it and prove it bullet proof. Validate it through trial by fire. And if those skeptics prevail, still thank them, for debunking a bad theory or idea, so that we do not dwell (play a game) based on myths or bad ideas. You see, both sides are not enemies. Both sides are actually working toward the same goal. If you would recognize that, you might reconsider your combative stance.
 
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Strawman argument. I already addressed this a few pages back.





Ghost ball is geometrically accurate and geometrically perfect. It is completely sound. Unfortunately, it's not a good practical aiming system, since visualizing an entire ball that doesn't exist is difficult to do. People making devices to assist in visualization of ghost ball are just as guilty of wasting player's times as some other proponents of other aiming systems.

Simplest and best is probably "contact point" or "spot on the ball" type systems. Sure, have to "feel" and compensate since that's not exactly where the CB hits the object ball. But I'm pretty sure no one ever said contact point aiming systems provides a conclusive and definitive line of aim free from adjustment or compensation. Since CTE requires "feel" and some adjustment and compensation...it's no better.





How am I a troll? You're the one that came into this thread and has been hostile with several people. You're the one that has been taking it off topic with all your "wanna bet" bravado. You're the one derailing it by personalizing it. Newsflash JB, this isn't a CTE thread. At least it wasn't. One of your first posts in this thread was a CTE video of yours! If you're looking for a troll, you don't need to search far.





My motivations? Let's see...

1. Discussion, this is a discussion board after all.

2. Seeking enlightenment. Some smart people here, I learn from both sides of the debate. Even from you.

3. Trying to offer up an alternative view point from all the kool aid drinking regarding aiming systems.


And maybe a few others? Nothing sinister though.





Well, that didn't take long. You have not progressed in your ability to debate or discuss an issue in the last 15 years that I've read your posts on the internet. You always default to challenges.

If a non CTE user stomps you, will you give up CTE forever and get on the internet with a video disavowing it and advocating all others do the same?

If you stomp some drunk APA SL2 using CTE, does that validate your claims as the truth?


Since you're making this personal, allow me to HELP you with your THINKING. While you think you may be validating yourself, you may very well be invalidating what might very well be truth by subjecting it to your own flawed, illogical and idiotic standard. Note, your standard is idiotic, I didn't say you were. Please note the difference. Or is your theory true if you win, but if you lose, you're still right? Just curious?


Besides...I never said I'd stomp you. Please produce a quote from me, from this thread where I said that. Otherwise, it is YOU who is putting words in other people's mouth.





Well, I've always been self-aware ...at least as far back as I can remember :p

I'm not 100% free of all excuses. But I am trying. I try and beat them down like the little demons that they are. That way, I get down to total reality and face up to what I need to face up to. This helps me improve. Rather than believe in BS and stagnate like most players. I can address REAL problems, as opposed to made up problems.


I am not an amazing player, never said I was. I am a grilled cheese player, not a Kobe beef player.





Quite the contrary Mr. B, in your video you made the shots that you made because you already have good aim, fundamentals and stroke. That's my assessment. I don't think you made them because of CTE. Even though you may think so. Now if you were worse before CTE, perhaps CTE did something for you. What CTE did not do for you is tell you where to aim. Because that has been geometrically DEBUNKED. Therefore, CTE must be giving you confidence, or making you more methodical. Something. It's doing something for you, but that something isn't aiming. Some of it may also be placebo effect.

Speaking of confidence, remember the "Custom Cue Mythology" thread? Not a single person could prove that their custom cue, because it is custom-made, helps them make balls on the basis of it's construction. Most people would simply state it gave them "confidence" ...

Likewise, an "aiming system" that does not AIM...can very well provide other benefits. Perhaps one of them is confidence or other intangibles. This was never disputed.





When I read your posts, I cannot help but feel like I am reading someone who is quite emotional, borderline hysterical. Who is "preventing" anyone from doing anything? Am I putting shackles on people's mind or something? Are you claiming I am some kind of book burner?

Good grief! I love the fact that there is a wide open debate on all these things. I am extremely glad that CTE is now out in the open. Now that it is in the open, it can be aired out. Bring everything into the sunlight. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Nothing is better for getting closer to the truth than openness. By all means, expose one's self to everything in pool, just don't accept it because someone says so, that is, if you're wise! Today, I wouldn't think CTE is not a real aiming system if I didn't take the time to understand it and analyze it. I suggest others do the same. How is this "preventing" anyone from trying out things on the table?

If anyone is trying to shut down the doors on people, put blinders on people - it's people like you who attack the skeptics, the very people who are trying to ask questions and get answers! CTE people want to teach a system. Skeptics actually want to know how and why it works. If CTE supporters wanted to know how or why it works, they would be doing what we are doing and asking the same questions. Instead, they accept it and then proceed to try and teach others in lieu of proving it. CTE is like a religion.


I think I will lecture you a little bit about this, because you obviously need it. It is related to science. In science, skepticism is not rejected or abhorred, it is WELCOMED. Bring it on. Scrutiny is loved. Testing. Analysis. Why? Because no one wants to believe in a theory or idea that is wrong! That sucks. Remember when doctors thought ulcers were caused by stress? Oops...now they know its caused by bacteria. Or better yet, hundreds of years ago people were sick because of evil spirits within them!


Yes, you heard me right. It's better to be attacked, criticized, scrutinized etcetera. Because IF, if your theory or idea holds up against all that, then it prevails as TRUTH. And that's what people seek, truth (I'd hope). Those that don't are zealots.

It has happened where a scientist had a theory for most of their life, literally they'd gone "all in" with it, only to be proved wrong after their whole life. And that scientist did not scream and cry foul. But thanked those who proved the theory wrong, for that is where advancement comes from and how truth is found. No one thinks of scientists like that as chumps or idiots after the fact. They are respected and valued too, as people who helped find out what is true and what is not. As Edison said (paraphrase), he didn't fail 1,000 times, he found 1,000 ways not to make a light bulb.


All that said, if your precious CTE is so true, so good, so right, and it works. What are you worried about? You ought to WELCOME all and any scrutiny. Because if it is what you say it is, it should hold up and ultimately prevail. And when / if it does, even then you shouldn't say "I told you so" ..but instead, thank those people who scrutinized it, because they, through their failed scrutiny and testing, served to vet it and prove it bullet proof. Validate it through trial by fire. And if those skeptics prevail, still thank them, for debunking a bad theory or idea, so that we do not dwell (play a game) based on myths or bad ideas. You see, both sides are not enemies. Both sides are actually working toward the same goal. If you would recognize that, you might reconsider your combative stance.

We have a winner...For all the work Mr. Cheese put into his very logical presentation of the facts...I feel very miniscule, to just say.................. TAP, TAP, TAP !!!
 
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Strawman argument. I already addressed this a few pages back.





Ghost ball is geometrically accurate and geometrically perfect. It is completely sound. Unfortunately, it's not a good practical aiming system, since visualizing an entire ball that doesn't exist is difficult to do. People making devices to assist in visualization are just as guilty of wasting player's times as some other proponents of other aiming systems.

Simplest and best is probably "contact point" or "spot on the ball" type systems. Sure, have to "feel" and compensate since that's not exactly where the CB hits the object ball. But I'm pretty sure no one ever said provides a conclusive and definitive line of aim. Since CTE requires "feel" and some adjustment and compensation...it's no better.





How am I a troll? You're the one that came into this thread and has been hostile with several people. You're the one that has been taking it off topic with all your "wanna bet" bravado. You're the derailing it by personalizing it. Newsflash JB, this isn't a CTE thread. At least it wasn't. One of your first posts in this thread was a CTE video of yours! If you're looking for a troll, you don't need to search far.





My motivations? Let's see...

1. Discussion, this is a discussion board after all.

2. Seeking enlightenment. Some smart people here, I learn from both sides of the debate. Even from you.

3. Trying to offer up an alternative view point from all the kool aid drinking regarding aiming systems.


And maybe a few others? Nothing sinister though.





Well, that didn't take long. You have not progressed in your ability to debate or discuss an issue in the last 15 years that I've read your posts on the internet. You always default to challenges.

If a non CTE user stomps you, will you give up CTE forever and get on the internet with a video disavowing it and advocating all others do the same?

If you stomp some drunk APA SL2 using CTE, does that validate your claims as the truth?


Since you're making this personal, allow me to HELP you with your THINKING. While you think you may be validating yourself, you may very well be invalidating what might very well be truth by subjecting it to your own flawed, illogical and idiotic standard. Note, your standard is idiotic, I didn't say you were. Please note the difference. Or is your theory true if you win, but if you lose, you're still right? Just curious?


Besides...I never said I'd stomp you. Please produce a quote from me, from this thread where I said that. Otherwise, it is YOU who is putting words in other people's mouth.





Well, I've always been self-aware ...at least as far back as I can remember :p

I'm not 100% free of all excuses. But I am trying. I try and beat them down like the little demons that they are. That way, I get down to total reality and face up to what I need to face up to. This helps me improve. Rather than believe in BS and stagnate like most players. I am not an amazing player, never said I was. I am a grilled cheese player, not a Kobe beef player.





Quite the contrary Mr. B, in your video you made the shots that you made because you already have good aim, fundamentals and stroke. That's my assessment. I don't think you made them because of CTE. Even though you may think so. Now if you were worse before CTE, perhaps CTE did something for you. What CTE did not do for you is tell you where to aim. Because that has been geometrically DEBUNKED. Therefore, CTE must be giving you confidence, or making you more methodical. Something. It's doing something for you. But aiming, it is not doing for you. Some of it may also be placebo effect.

Speaking of confidence, remember the "Custom Cue Mythology" thread? Not a single person could prove that their custom cue, because it is custom-made, helps them make balls. Most people would simply state it gave them "confidence" ...

Likewise, an "aiming system" that does not AIM...can very well provide other benefits. Perhaps one of them is confidence or other intangibles.




When I read your posts, I cannot help but feel like I am reading someone who is quite emotional, borderline hysterical. Who is "preventing" anyone from doing anything? Am I putting shackles on people's mind or something? Are you claiming I am some kind of book burner?

Good grief! I love the fact that there is a wide open debate on all these things. I am extremely glad that CTE is now out in the open. Now that it is in the open, it can be aired out. Bring everything into the sunlight. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Nothing is better for getting closer to the truth than openness. By all means, expose one's self to everything! Today, I wouldn't think CTE is not a real aiming system if I didn't take the time to understand it and analyze it. I suggest others do the same. How is this "preventing" anyone from trying out things on the table?

If anyone is trying to shut down the doors on people, put blinders on people - it's people like you who attack the skeptics, people who are trying to ask questions and get answers!


I think I will lecture you a little bit about this, because you obviously need it. It is related to science. In science, skepticism is not rejected or battled, it is WELCOMED. Bring it on. Scrutiny is loved. Testing. Analysis. Why? Because no one wants to believe a theory or idea that is wrong! That sucks. Remember when doctors though ulcers were caused by stress? Oops...now they know its caused by bacteria. Or better yet, hundreds of years ago people were sick because of evil spirits within them!


Yes, you heard me right. It's better to be attacked, criticized, scrutinized etcetera. Because IF, if your theory or idea holds up against all that, then it prevails as TRUTH. And that's what people seek, truth. It has happened where a scientist had a theory for most of their lives, literally they've gone "all in" with it, only to be proved wrong after their whole life. And that scientist did not scream and cry foul. But thanked those who proved the theory wrong, for that is where advancement comes from and how truth is found. No one also thinks of scientists like that as chumps or idiots. They are respected and valued too, as people who helps find out what is true and what is not. As Edison said (paraphrase), he didn't fail 1,000 times, he found 1,000 ways not to make a light bulb.


All that said, if your precious CTE is so true, so good, so right, and it works. What are you worried about? You ought to WELCOME all and any scrutiny. Because if it is what you say it is, it should hold up and ultimately prevail. And when / if it does, even then you shouldn't say "I told you so" ..but instead, thank those people who scrutinized it, because they through their failed scrutiny, served to vet it and prove it bullet proof. Validate it through trial by fire. And if they skeptics prevail, still thank them, for debunking a bad theory or idea, so that we do not dwell (play a game) based on myths or bad ideas. You see, both sides are not enemies. Both sides are actually working toward the same goal. If you would recognize that, you might reconsider your combative stance.


Was it? You see this is the perfect example of how you only want to pontificate.

I bet you didn't even WATCH the video did you?

It wasn't a CTE video. It was a commentary on aiming systems in general and a commentary on the attitude's of people like you.

I do welcome scrutiny from people who actually try it and can explain what they think doesn't work.

But the history of these debates going ALL the way back to RSB has been that one side want to DEFAME the other side with labels like snake-oil, suckers, charlatans, diet-pills, believers in Santa Claus, and so on.....

That's not valid scrutiny. That's simply being a curmudgeon to put it politely.

Valid scrutiny is taking the method to the table and working it out. Getting ALL the steps and instruction FROM THE SOURCE and then really working on it, not just a cursory five minutes but really inspecting it through honest efforts and testing that that you document. THAT is valid scrutiny.

When I get a cue case I take it apart so that I can understand it down to the last little nail as much as is possible. Thus when I speak about the quality of a case I KNOW how the cases I speak about are built inside and out.

But this detail never has bothered the "skeptics" when it comes to aiming systems. Despite standing open invitations to learn the systems inside and out from those who know them intimately not one open skeptic has taken the invitation to go to or arrange to meet one of the teachers. Not that I know of.

But does that stop them from blasting the systems? Nope, not at all.

And then when those skeptics demand proof and proof is given they pooh-pooh it and say it's not proof at all.

Am I combative? You bet I am. Why? Because I don't want you blocking my access to techniques that might be helpful to me. And furthermore your condescending attitude that aiming systems don't work but are instead nothing more than psychological self-delusion that is "helpful" because they force a pre-shot routine is not only wrong it's also not even your original idea unless your name is Colin Colenso.

Here is the video I posted. Contrary to your claim it's not a CTE video. Maybe if you actually started to try to learn these methods instead of panning them maybe you would actually learn something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQcHkU1Dzo

Lastly, you started this thread in a combative manner by making several statements that you knew full well would be disagreed with. So don't even begin to pretend you weren't looking for a fight.

You have spent 40,000 words to say what all the naysayers say to denigrate aiming systems. No shortcuts, hard work, hit a million balls = good player. There you go, 11 words.
 
P.S. I am not worried at all. Like I said last year.

We Won.

Top instructors teach these systems. Pros use them. People are discussing and learning them. Instructional materials are being created which cover them.

We Won.

The thing about this thread is that it doesn't matter. Nothing you say against them matters but it's still despicable that you continue to try to block people from trying them.
 
PPS. You are the one who said that a person who works on their stroke will STOMP an aiming system user. That's why you got the challenge. So if a SYSTEM user stomps a non system user then will you shut up?

You put out all these red-herrings and wonder why your logic gets crushed. Maybe this is some school assignment for you but the fact that you couldn't even be bothered to read the article on appeal to authority that you used to prove your point shows me that you don't like to do your homework.
 
I think I will lecture you a little bit about this, because you obviously need it. It is related to science. In science, skepticism is not rejected or abhorred, it is WELCOMED. Bring it on. Scrutiny is loved. Testing. Analysis. Why? Because no one wants to believe in a theory or idea that is wrong! That sucks. Remember when doctors thought ulcers were caused by stress? Oops...now they know its caused by bacteria. Or better yet, hundreds of years ago people were sick because of evil spirits within them!


Yes, you heard me right. It's better to be attacked, criticized, scrutinized etcetera. Because IF, if your theory or idea holds up against all that, then it prevails as TRUTH. And that's what people seek, truth (I'd hope). Those that don't are zealots.

It has happened where a scientist had a theory for most of their life, literally they'd gone "all in" with it, only to be proved wrong after their whole life. And that scientist did not scream and cry foul. But thanked those who proved the theory wrong, for that is where advancement comes from and how truth is found. No one thinks of scientists like that as chumps or idiots after the fact. They are respected and valued too, as people who helped find out what is true and what is not. As Edison said (paraphrase), he didn't fail 1,000 times, he found 1,000 ways not to make a light bulb.


All that said, if your precious CTE is so true, so good, so right, and it works. What are you worried about? You ought to WELCOME all and any scrutiny. Because if it is what you say it is, it should hold up and ultimately prevail. And when / if it does, even then you shouldn't say "I told you so" ..but instead, thank those people who scrutinized it, because they, through their failed scrutiny and testing, served to vet it and prove it bullet proof. Validate it through trial by fire. And if those skeptics prevail, still thank them, for debunking a bad theory or idea, so that we do not dwell (play a game) based on myths or bad ideas. You see, both sides are not enemies. Both sides are actually working toward the same goal. If you would recognize that, you might reconsider your combative stance.

You presume to lecture me about the scientific method in a thread you started using your own CONJECTURE and OPINION???

That's rich.

Where is your detail analysis?

Last year you were on here lambasting the systems and the people who teach them while in private begging me for instruction.

I said to you that you should get to know Dave Segal and that he would be glad to help you if you were sincere about learning it. Did you do it?

No, you didn't.

So save the BS about testing according to the scientific method. And PLEASE stop plagiarizing other people's words. Everything you have said where people are applauding you has been said by other people before you who aren't afraid to use their own REAL NAMES. Mike Page, Bob Jewett, Dave Alciatore (the only one you give any attribution to) and others you have shamelessly ripped off in your dissertation. Scientists hate plagiarizers even more than zealots.
 
And then when those skeptics demand proof and proof is given they pooh-pooh it and say it's not proof at all.

Because that which is furnished is not proof.

What you are doing, how you are acting, and what you are saying is akin to religious fanaticism. Several religious people put forth their "proof" that God exists, and then criticize all skeptics for not accepting their so-called proof. Saying that no amount of proof is enough, they're just 'haters'


Am I combative? You bet I am. Why? Because I don't want you blocking my access to techniques that might be helpful to me.

Please explain to me how the hell I am blocking your access to anything???


And furthermore your condescending attitude that aiming systems don't work but are instead nothing more than psychological self-delusion that is "helpful" because they force a pre-shot routine is not only wrong it's also not even your original idea unless your name is Colin Colenso.


I never claimed any of my statements were ORIGINAL. But they are my statements. As I have read, and read, and read....I've found that things I have said in the past were aready said by others, before I said them. Guys like Dr. Dave, Pat, Colin as you mentioned et al. That's fine. On some things, we've come to the same conclusion, based on current information and data.

This is bad / wrong why? What is your point? That it's not my idea? That's fine. I could care less. How is this relevant to the discussion? Furthermore, how does telling me my idea isn't original help to validate your claims?


Lastly, you started this thread in a combative manner by making several statements that you knew full well would be disagreed with.

Are you telling me that saying something that others will disagree with is being combative? Besides this statement of yours being ridiculous, perhaps you ought to apply this little standard to yourself. If you did, you wouldn't be able to utter another word again.

Imagine if the world operated like that. Saying anything that would be disagreed with is viewed as combative! As looking for a fight! I think you're projecting here. I can disagree with someone without being combative, and without looking for a fight. I don't like these fights (which you have worked so very hard to finally drag me into, good job) because they detract from the quality discussion that revolves around information.


Perhaps that is your agenda? Your radar detected skepticism of your beloved aiming systems, so, devoid of fact, but armed with mud - you started slinging it around until you embroiled the whole thread into a disaster. Mission accomplished, you helped kill a thread that threatened your views. Go back to my previous post, and read and learn about embracing criticism and skepticism, rather than annihilating it like some religious fanatic. You've called me plenty of names, I shall call you one. You are now the official Aiming System Hitman. A terminator that goes around and terminates any meaningful discussion doubting the validity of your precious aiming system.

You have spent 40,000 words to say what all the naysayers say to denigrate aiming systems. No shortcuts, hard work, hit a million balls = good player. There you go, 11 words.


What can I say? I'm not very terse. :wink:
 
Let me ask you a question JB,


Don't you think I'd love for CTE or whatever system to actually work toward providing THE actual line of aim???


I can't speak for the other skeptics, but I will anyway and say I think they would too. I think anyone with even a few braincells would want that. Who wouldn't want that? Is anyone here a masochist looking to do things the hard way for eternity?


Do try and adjust your attitude. We are not your enemy. The only difference between us and you, is that we want to make sure we're not buying into any bullshit. We have a genuine standard for what proof is. That isn't to say you're a sucker. So please, don't think that way it's very negative. But, you have decided to invest in that idea and support it, but you do so with your own experience and with faith (not proof). That's ok.


Read this, and read it clear JB, I would PREFER to be 1,000% wrong on CTE or any similar aiming system...because that would mean it's real, and works as advertised. As a result, I would be very fortunate to have such a system at my disposal, to use, to improve with, and to enjoy the game more.


So, please help me and others. Instead of impeding discussion, help us find the PROOF. Help us to prove and declare this the greatest aiming system. It will be the biggest advancement in modern cue sports history. I mean that, not being a smart ass here.
 
Because that which is furnished is not proof.

What you are doing, how you are acting, and what you are saying is akin to religious fanaticism. Several religious people put forth their "proof" that God exists, and then criticize all skeptics for not accepting their so-called proof. Saying that no amount of proof is enough, they're just 'haters'

No, "your side" asked for certain test shots to be made, those were done but didn't count. Your side wanted to see pro players using the systems, those were provided, didn't count. You side wanted to see tournament results and got them but those were discounted.

So yeah, you're just haters.




Please explain to me how the hell I am blocking your access to anything???

With walls of text designed to turn people away. You are not physically blocking you are being a psychological blocker.





I never claimed any of my statements were ORIGINAL. But they are my statements. As I have read, and read, and read....I've found that things I have said in the past were aready said by others, before I said them. Guys like Dr. Dave, Pat, Colin as you mentioned et al. That's fine. On some things, we've come to the same conclusion, based on current information and data.

Nor did you provide attribution.

This is bad / wrong why? What is your point? That it's not my idea? That's fine. I could care less. How is this relevant to the discussion? Furthermore, how does telling me my idea isn't original help to validate your claims?

Which claims? What claims have I made that require validation? I am just saying that you regurgitating the thoughts of others without mentioning them is distasteful whether you are wrong or right.


Are you telling me that saying something that others will disagree with is being combative? Besides this statement of yours being ridiculous, perhaps you ought to apply this little standard to yourself. If you did, you wouldn't be able to utter another word again.

When you KNOW that it is going to cause a fight then it is combative.

Imagine if the world operated like that. Saying anything that would be disagreed with is viewed as combative! As looking for a fight! I think you're projecting here. I can disagree with someone without being combative, and without looking for a fight. I don't like these fights (which you have worked so very hard to finally drag me into, good job) because they detract from the quality discussion that revolves around information.

What information?

If you don't think that opening your treatise with this line is not combative then you are the one who is seriously deluded. It is neither polite nor adherent to the scientific method:

Been a lot of talk about aiming systems lately, thought I'd add my $0.02 and felt it would be a better idea to put it in its own thread rather than derail an existing one on aiming. It's more polite this way. Especially since I'm going to shatter some people's delusions below....

You so remember that this is the FIRST line of this thread don't you?


Perhaps that is your agenda? Your radar detected skepticism of your beloved aiming systems, so, devoid of fact, but armed with mud - you started slinging it around until you embroiled the whole thread into a disaster. Mission accomplished, you helped kill a thread that threatened your views. Go back to my previous post, and read and learn about embracing criticism and skepticism, rather than annihilating it like some religious fanatic. You've called me plenty of names, I shall call you one. You are now the official Aiming System Hitman. A terminator that goes around and terminates any meaningful discussion doubting the validity of your precious aiming system.

Your thread doesn't threaten me. I find it pathetic at best. A freaking wall of text that regurgitates the same old arguments from 15 years ago......is not threatening, it's annoying.

What can I say? I'm not very terse. :wink:

Nor rational or truthful.

Discussion is only meaningful to you if it agrees with you. I am sure that the few people in this thread giving you attaboys are just making your head swell tremendously.

When disagreed with your true agenda comes out....diet pills, santa claus, religious zealouts, precious systems......blah blah blah.......

Instead why don't you learn one of these systems. THEN you can analyze it using the scientific method. I'd like to see ONE of you give this at least an honest effort over a couple hours.

For all the PREACHING you do about Hard Work and Hitting a Million Balls you seem to not want to invest ANY table time in the system you write so much to debunk, or should I say write so much to shatter people's delusions.
 
Those resource pages contain far too much info to post here. If you don't want to look at the info, that is your choice; but I think the "proof" you seek is there.

Does this "proof" imply that the various versions of CTE cannot be used effectively? Absolutely not!!!

Regards,
Dave

Doesn't state the wide range of cut shots that you say cte doesn't work for. Please elaborate.
 
Let me ask you a question JB,


Don't you think I'd love for CTE or whatever system to actually work toward providing THE actual line of aim???


I can't speak for the other skeptics, but I will anyway and say I think they would too. I think anyone with even a few braincells would want that. Who wouldn't want that? Is anyone here a masochist looking to do things the hard way for eternity?


Do try and adjust your attitude. We are not your enemy. The only difference between us and you, is that we want to make sure we're not buying into any bullshit. We have a genuine standard for what proof is. That isn't to say you're a sucker. So please, don't think that way it's very negative. But, you have decided to invest in that idea and support it, but you do so with your own experience and with faith (not proof). That's ok.


Read this, and read it clear JB, I would PREFER to be 1,000% wrong on CTE or any similar aiming system...because that would mean it's real, and works as advertised. As a result, I would be very fortunate to have such a system at my disposal, to use, to improve with, and to enjoy the game more.


So, please help me and others. Instead of impeding discussion, help us find the PROOF. Help us to prove and declare this the greatest aiming system. It will be the biggest advancement in modern cue sports history. I mean that, not being a smart ass here.

You are 100% wrong. Real scientists never say 1000 percent as no such thing exists. But instead of doing the WORK to learn it the right way you prefer to not learn it at all and claim it doesn't work.

And yes you are being a smart ass. What sort of bullshit would you be "buying into" by spending a few hours working on something you get for free? The time you have spent in this thread could have been spent on the table working it out.

The REAL difference between you and I is that when someone gives me some information on how to play better I take it to the table and work on it until I own it. Case in Point, I made a video trying to interpret an aiming system put out on a blog. Dave Segal who knows that aiming system inside and out crtiqued my approach and offered his information as to how I should do it. So after this post I am off to the pool room, Ipad in hand, to TRY what he is teaching.

THAT is an example of a CONSTRUCTIVE and INSTRUCTIVE thread surrounding an aiming system that eventually leads to a proper understanding of how and why it works.

This is a DESTRUCTIVE thread.
 
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