A new rule?

[The Renfro]

I do this because it seems to be a common practice these days in Knoxville. Even the old guys who know better will pull it on you...

SO I can either a)Try and call them on an unsportsmanlike foul and end up in a argument or fight or b)I can do exactly what they do and level the playing field....

If someone continues to give you a slug rack do you continue to give them perfect racks or do you slug em right back?..... I insist on rack your own because that won't usually cause as many arguments. If they wont agree to that they get as good as they give.....

I'm not always the turn the other cheek type of guy... Sometimes it is "an eye for an eye" old testament me.....

I would love to see a letter i) added to the unsportsmanlike section of the rules something like this i)The Intentionally stopping of, altering the path of, or picking up of any ball in motion during a shot is immediate loss of game....

As stated earlier in the thread it's not like it takes forever to wait for the cueball to stop rolling......

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Under BCA rules, there is already a "Deliberate Foul" under "General Rules" that covers this.

In my humble opinion, I don't think more ammo should be provided to cause controversy. If the shooter fouls and picks up a cue-ball that will certainly not disturb any balls AND it's a game where fouls = BIH, no penalty or even warning should be issued.

If, on the other hand, we're playing 14.1, it's a different story since BIH is never awarded and sometimes, not scratching is better to the incoming player.

If you're going to play this game, you need to not act like an idiot. Seriously. If the cueball is racing around the table, you don't pick it up. As well, if your opponent gives you BIH before the cueball has stopped rolling and it wasn't going to hit anything, just accept the cueball and move on with the game.

 

[The Renfro]

I also think sharking from your chair is wrong but I will engage in that as well if I am being subjected to it.....

And I guess I should clarify the statement of the epitome of gamesmanship... Every single time someone pulls this one on me I know they just got me and they got me good.... I won't call the foul and will simply repay them in kind when the roles are reversed....

You will not catch me being the first transgressor is these situations.. I will merely retaliate... If I were to kick at a shot and miss it and had not had a chance to see you handle the same situation I would let the cueball roll until it stopped or was in the clear of not moving anything...

Half the time the cluster or table layout may be worse anyway...

Many times I would simply hand you the cueball as BIH if I had a chance to break open things better left alone..... IF I am FIRST to act.......

I don't mind playing the other way because I get to kick at stuff I shouldn't even think about but I don't prefer it.....

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I would like to add, one thing I hate seeing is a player making a game-winning shot and then picking up a moving cueball. You should never award yourself the cueball.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

Maybe you could try and stretch (b) to try and declare the foul but as written expect a fight over it.... You could argue the spirit of the rules where it states that the game cannot be played fairly but if both players are picking up whitey the field is even and fair..... I still will classify it as gamesmanship as the rules do not expressly address the act in question....

I think (b) should include picking up a moving CB. I think it's even more explicitly covered elsewhere.

But if, as you say, it's how things are done where I'm playing, then I might do it too to even the playing field - I might even like it.

pj <- not trying to be all holier-than-thou
chgo

 

[PGHteacher]

I do this because it seems to be a common practice these days in Knoxville. Even the old guys who know better will pull it on you...

SO I can either a)Try and call them on an unsportsmanlike foul and end up in a argument or fight or b)I can do exactly what they do and level the playing field.... ......

Or c) do something crazy like try to talk and reason with them. Doesn’t always work but it is usually worth the attempt.

If someone continues to give you a slug rack do you continue to give them perfect racks or do you slug em right back?.

I continue to give them perfect racks. I have observed that people that slug-rack you are usually unaware that they have and those that do it on purpose are not good enough to capitalize on it, if you play enough one-pocket & 14.1 it just makes for a longer game it isn’t to their advantage in fact the advantage is MORE often mine as it is theirs so it just makes the game longer and that’s not what the $ player wants.

I would love to see a letter i) added to the unsportsmanlike section of the rules something like this i)The Intentionally stopping of, altering the path of, or picking up of any ball in motion during a shot is immediate loss of game...

I thought you voted “NO” in this poll? If you feel this way you voted incorrectly or did not understand the question.

As stated earlier in the thread it's not like it takes forever to wait for the cueball to stop rolling......

Exactly

Under BCA rules, there is already a "Deliberate Foul" under "General Rules" that covers this. .

I can’t find that can you post it please?

In my humble opinion, I don't think more ammo should be provided to cause controversy. .

Exactly and if the rules are more clear there is less controversy.

If the shooter fouls and picks up a cue-ball that will certainly not disturb any balls AND it's a game where fouls = BIH, no penalty or even warning should be issued. .

I am sorry but I have to disagree this is what creates confusion and controversy; just wait till the ball stops, it doesn’t take that long. That’s what the professional refs do just watch Steve Tipton(sp?). What's wrong with saying "hey wait till it stops please" that way no arguments, no controversy, no confusion.

If you're going to play this game, you need to not act like an idiot. Seriously.

Is that working for you? It doesn’t for me; I have resigned myself to the fact that some people are just going to act like idiots.

If the cueball is racing around the table, you don't pick it up.

And how are we going to let everyone know that is without a doubt under any circumstances?

As well, if your opponent gives you BIH before the cueball has stopped rolling and it wasn't going to hit anything, just accept the cueball and move on with the game.

Yes but I have also resigned myself to the belief that people are not all that bright so if it’s a younger person I just casually tell them “you should really wait till CB motion has stopped” if an older person eh; they are hopeless might as well just say “thanks” and move on.

I would like to add, one thing I hate seeing is a player making a game-winning shot and then picking up a moving cueball. You should never award yourself the cueball.

Exactly you should never pick up a moving CB under any circumstances even when you just won the game just wait for it to stop that way there are no issues of any kind ever.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I can’t find that can you post it please?

http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/Rules/GeneralRules.aspx

1.40 Deliberate Foul
During a game, it is a deliberate foul if you commit any of the following acts. In addition to the penalties under the General Rules and specific game rules, you incur additional penalties as indicated.
a. Intentionally strike, move or deflect the cue ball with anything other than your cue tip.
b. Intentionally pick up or contact the cue ball with your hand while it or any other ball is in motion, or in order to end your inning,
c. Intentionally cause any ball in play to move by contacting or moving any part of the table in any way. (AR p. 84)
Penalties: First violation of (a-c): in addition to the foul penalty, you will receive a mandatory warning that second and subsequent violations during a match will result in loss of game. Second and subsequent violations during a match: loss of game.
d. Intentionally stop or deflect any ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play.
Penalties in addition to the foul penalty for violations involving object balls: First violation of (d): your opponent may have the object ball spotted, pocketed or left in position. It is loss of game if it is the game- winning ball. It is loss of game if a deflected object ball contacts any other ball. Second and subsequent violations involving an object ball or the cue ball during a match: loss of game.
e. Catch any ball that is falling into a pocket.
f. Place your hand into a pocket while any ball in play is in motion near that pocket.
Penalties: in addition to the foul penalty for violations involving object balls: First violation of (e-f): your opponent may have the ball spotted, placed along the lip of the pocket, pocketed, or left in position. It is loss of game if the ball involved is the game winning ball. (8-Ball exception for first violation: if the 8-ball is involved on the break shot, it is a foul only). Second and subsequent violations involving an object ball or the cue ball during a match: loss of game.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Or c) do something crazy like try to talk and reason with them. Doesn’t always work but it is usually worth the attempt.



I continue to give them perfect racks. I have observed that people that slug-rack you are usually unaware that they have and those that do it on purpose are not good enough to capitalize on it, if you play enough one-pocket & 14.1 it just makes for a longer game it isn’t to their advantage in fact the advantage is MORE often mine as it is theirs so it just makes the game longer and that’s not what the $ player wants.





I thought you voted “NO” in this poll? If you feel this way you voted incorrectly or did not understand the question.




Exactly



I can’t find that can you post it please?




Exactly and if the rules are more clear there is less controversy.




I am sorry but I have to disagree this is what creates confusion and controversy; just wait till the ball stops, it doesn’t take that long. That’s what the professional refs do just watch Steve Tipton(sp?). What's wrong with saying "hey wait till it stops please" that way no arguments, no controversy, no confusion.



Is that working for you? It doesn’t for me; I have resigned myself to the fact that some people are just going to act like idiots.



And how are we going to let everyone know that is without a doubt under any circumstances?



Yes but I have also resigned myself to the belief that people are not all that bright so if it’s a younger person I just casually tell them “you should really wait till CB motion has stopped” if an older person eh; they are hopeless might as well just say “thanks” and move on.



Exactly you should never pick up a moving CB under any circumstances even when you just won the game just wait for it to stop that way there are no issues of any kind ever.

In regards to everything else you state, I will say this - this game is not meant to be a game based on penalties. Picking up a moving cueball can fall into three catagories:

1. Moving things along
2. Careless
3. Deliberate attempt to alter the course of the match

I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority of instances where the cueball is fetched before it's come to a stop fall into the first catagory. The second catagory is typical among beginners and the third is reserved for a special kind of scumbag. I understand. You want to penalize the scumbag but for every scumbag you catch, you'll penalize 100 players who are simply conceding BIH which is often regarded as being honest.

 

[PGHteacher]

http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/Rules/GeneralRules.aspx

b. Intentionally pick up or contact the cue ball with your hand while it or any other ball is in motion, or in order to end your inning,
.

Now all we need is for it to extend to more rule books, simple. Thank you I thought it might be somewhere; never thought to look in the league book duh. Thanks a lot I appriciate it. That is a start to make this well known from one end of this country to the other.

 

[Bob Jewett]

http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/Rules/GeneralRules.aspx

1.40 Deliberate Foul
During a game, it is a deliberate foul if you commit any of the following acts. In addition to the penalties under the General Rules and specific game rules, you incur additional penalties as indicated.
a. Intentionally strike, move or deflect the cue ball with anything other than your cue tip.
b. Intentionally pick up or contact the cue ball with your hand while it or any other ball is in motion, or in order to end your inning,
c. Intentionally cause any ball in play to move by contacting or moving any part of the table in any way. (AR p. 84)
Penalties: First violation of (a-c): in addition to the foul penalty, you will receive a mandatory warning that second and subsequent violations during a match will result in loss of game. Second and subsequent violations during a match: loss of game.
d. Intentionally stop or deflect any ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play.
Penalties in addition to the foul penalty for violations involving object balls: First violation of (d): your opponent may have the object ball spotted, pocketed or left in position. It is loss of game if it is the game- winning ball. It is loss of game if a deflected object ball contacts any other ball. Second and subsequent violations involving an object ball or the cue ball during a match: loss of game.
e. Catch any ball that is falling into a pocket.
f. Place your hand into a pocket while any ball in play is in motion near that pocket.
Penalties: in addition to the foul penalty for violations involving object balls: First violation of (e-f): your opponent may have the ball spotted, placed along the lip of the pocket, pocketed, or left in position. It is loss of game if the ball involved is the game winning ball. (8-Ball exception for first violation: if the 8-ball is involved on the break shot, it is a foul only). Second and subsequent violations involving an object ball or the cue ball during a match: loss of game.

I think it is a bad idea to enumerate all the possible instances of "b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;". The problem is that you have all the clever people who will figure out some other way to violate b) without doing one of the specific things mentioned in the BCAPL list. For example, under f) on the BCAPL list, you can't put a hand into a pocket, but it says nothing about the butt of your cue stick. Or your stump if you have had a band-saw encounter.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think it is a bad idea to enumerate all the possible instances of "b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;". The problem is that you have all the clever people who will figure out some other way to violate b) without doing one of the specific things mentioned in the BCAPL list. For example, under f) on the BCAPL list, you can't put a hand into a pocket, but it says nothing about the butt of your cue stick. Or your stump if you have had a band-saw encounter.

Bob, I agree with you. By enumerating the possible violations, you only give someone ammo to say all other instances are allowed. The rules should be such that the ref must interpret the situation and apply an appropriate penalty.

 

[PGHteacher]

In regards to everything else you state, I will say this - this game is not meant to be a game based on penalties. .

agreed

Picking up a moving cueball can fall into three catagories:

1. Moving things along
2. Careless
3. Deliberate attempt to alter the course of the match

I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority of instances where the cueball is fetched before it's come to a stop fall into the first catagory. .

Agreed, but it doesn’t move things along; the cb only takes an extra second or 2 to stop and I have heard 1000+ things that have held up matches & races and never heard of getting the cb behind the line asap as one of them.

The second catagory is typical among beginners and the third is reserved for a special kind of scumbag. I understand. You want to penalize the scumbag but for every scumbag you catch, you'll penalize 100 players who are simply conceding BIH which is often regarded as being honest.

I agree with you for the most part that’s why I put forth the question in the 1st place how do you punish the scumbag without penalizing the 100 players that are new or just not paying attention? At 1st its hard sure I will give you that one; maybe it should be based on skill level for example. A suggestion was for it to be on intent and that also can muddy the water. If I had the answer I would have put it up on the OP of this thread that’s why I was asking everyone.

I have come up with a few ideas while brainstorming this one; the craziest was the “CB effect shot” where the incoming player has the option of shooting the CB as it would have effected the rack and then taking BIH. Yes that sounds absurd I know but when you make a clear rule that everybody knows and enforces it becomes well known and adhered to.

The problem is that many people see it as “oh it wasn’t going to hit/touch anything" (I have dealt with that before and I have just said to that person "irrelevent; you wait till it stops, and you know better right?") and then they get into that habit and then when it is going to hit something or scratch they are in the habit of picking it up and irritate people like me as to what they might do in a game changing situation; that’s what’s happening and I would like it phased out (if possible) I also think that by the answers on this thread that that may not happen in my lifetime maybe 50yrs or so; but I say can this really be that hard now?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

agreed




Agreed, but it doesn’t move things along; the cb only takes an extra second or 2 to stop and I have heard 1000+ things that have held up matches & races and never heard of getting the cb behind the line asap as one of them.


I agree with you for the most part that’s why I put forth the question in the 1st place how do you punish the scumbag without penalizing the 100 players that are new or just not paying attention? At 1st its hard sure I will give you that one; maybe it should be based on skill level for example. A suggestion was for it to be on intent and that also can muddy the water. If I had the answer I would have put it up on the OP of this thread that’s why I was asking everyone.

I have come up with a few ideas while brainstorming this one; the craziest was the “CB effect shot” where the incoming player has the option of shooting the CB as it would have effected the rack and then taking BIH. Yes that sounds absurd I know but when you make a clear rule that everybody knows and enforces it becomes well known and adhered to.

The problem is that many people see it as “oh it wasn’t going to hit/touch anything" (I have dealt with that before and I have just said to that person "irrelevent; you wait till it stops, and you know better right?") and then they get into that habit and then when it is going to hit something or scratch they are in the habit of picking it up and irritate people like me as to what they might do in a game changing situation; that’s what’s happening and I would like it phased out (if possible) I also think that by the answers on this thread that that may not happen in my lifetime maybe 50yrs or so; but I say can this really be that hard now?

Have you ever played/watched an APA match? The APA is a league of whiners and they whine because the APA rulebook gives them the ammo to do so. With that said, I continue playing in the APA. It's fun and I like getting my bartable practice in but make no mistake of it, it is a league of people who are trying to figure out ways to win outside of pocketing balls.

I know you want the game played fairly. Many of us do. In doing so, we need it ref'd intelligently. In my world, the more common argument is if a foul occurred AT ALL. If my opponent is conceding a foul, I'm never going to complain.

With that said, I always slap my teammates' wrists for picking up the cueball when they really shouldn't and commend them for honestly calling fouls on themselves.

 

[PGHteacher]

Have you ever played/watched an APA match? The APA is a league of whiners and they whine because the APA rulebook gives them the ammo to do so. With that said, I continue playing in the APA. It's fun and I like getting my bartable practice in but make no mistake of it, it is a league of people who are trying to figure out ways to win outside of pocketing balls.

I know you want the game played fairly. Many of us do. In doing so, we need it ref'd intelligently. In my world, the more common argument is if a foul occurred AT ALL. If my opponent is conceding a foul, I'm never going to complain.

With that said, I always slap my teammates' wrists for picking up the cueball when they really shouldn't and commend them for honestly calling fouls on themselves.

Yes I have played APA (see post #20)

 

[RunoutJJ]

[/QUOTE]
I like the APA it is just that I played in it and it is obviously not for me. But they are doing a lot to make people more interested in pool and for that I commend them; and I think for that they are a great boon for pool. It is just not for me I played in it for 2 seasons. I would not suggest this for the APA under any circumstances it is far too complicated for too many of them; until you have everybody agree that you should call your pocket just like everywhere else you go in the world (in competitive environments) a rule like this would be like asking an infant to run a 50yd dash before they were able to stand on 2 feet. [/QUOTE]


Oh I was totally joking about playing in the APA. They promote staying at the same level of play so you don't screw up your teams numbers. Which to me is a but of shite but thats just me

 

[RunoutJJ]

The last time somebody tired to call me on this Bullshite ruling I asked them if they wanted to play for 5k even up!! Nothing but crickets

 

[PGHteacher]

Wow

I think it is a bad idea to enumerate all the possible instances of "b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;". The problem is that you have all the clever people who will figure out some other way to violate b) without doing one of the specific things mentioned in the BCAPL list. For example, under f) on the BCAPL list, you can't put a hand into a pocket, but it says nothing about the butt of your cue stick. Or your stump if you have had a band-saw encounter.

:rotflmao1:

How true; how sad, very true and very sad, BUT FUNNY!

 

[Espartaco_7]

The last time somebody tired to call me on this Bullshite ruling I asked them if they wanted to play for 5k even up!! Nothing but crickets

I´m kind of knew in pool (1 1/2 years playin), but I ´ve always had in my mind that "no one can touch the balls in the table until they stop running" please anyone correct me if I´m wrong.

Playing for fun I think it´s ok, but in a match it can be the issue of winning or loosing. Look it like this, race to 11 for 5k, match 10-10, player shooting the 7 ball, the 8 & 9 clustered with no option to uncluster with the 7 shot. Player miscues and the cue ball is running to uncluster the 8 & 9, the player stops the cueball and give it to the opponent. What would you do?...

In my case I think I´d give him two options, or he pays me or kills me.

 

[thommy]

Back in 1966 when I started playing I read the rule book. It was pretty basic and everybody understood it. We all played by it, regardless of the stakes. I've got a copy if anybody wants I can photocopy and send at my cost.

Since then, various associations have added innumerable rules.

How's that working for you???

 

[PGHteacher]

Back in 1966 when I started playing I read the rule book. It was pretty basic and everybody understood it. We all played by it, regardless of the stakes. I've got a copy if anybody wants I can photocopy and send at my cost.

Since then, various associations have added innumerable rules.

How's that working for you???

I suggest that we go by those rules and that we also go back to the 1966 rules for football. Not sure what your point is here but are you saying less rules are better if not I am sorry for the post.