cueaddicts said:
My house is powered by wind. Big props spinning in the wind. Very friendly process. We call it the "Bird Cuisinart". Chops them birds right up.
A none murdered animal cue please.
- Thread starter seb9
- Start date
My house is powered by wind. Big props spinning in the wind. Very friendly process. We call it the "Bird Cuisinart". Chops them birds right up.
Seb, I understand your post, and I do sympathize. With that said, part of your problem was that the title of your thread and initial post came off as a bit inflammatory. It was sure to elicit some of the responses that you received. You will invariably always catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. 
I am guilty of owning one cue my whole life that contained ivory. I no longer own this cue, and, as a matter of personal conscious, will not own another again.
This isn't just about elephants. I hear that there are huge stockpiles of pre-ban ivory, and that those who have the stockpiles, alledgedly wish to sell it for the protection of the remaining elephant population in Africa. While, I believe that there may well be a few well intentioned individuals, the sad truth is, that a good deal of those in positions of power on the African continent, are corrupt.
In the past, it is this very corruption that allowed for the flow (and still does to a certain degree) of conflict or 'blood' diamonds. It allowed for these diamonds to be 'legitimized' and sold to the huge European consortiums. It is absolutely foolish of us to believe that these diamond consortiums were not turning a blind eye to where these diamonds are coming from. And we, as the consumer, didn't really care. Our demand was met...no matter the cost.
It is equally foolish of us to believe that the same does not go for other high demand, governmentally controlled items from the African continent. Where there is a demand, and a limited supply, for whatever reason, a black market will emerge, and thrive.
Also, with all the strife on the African continent, between countries and more localized, the various tribes....we would be foolish to believe that no matter the item in demand, be it diamonds, or ivory...and perhaps in time, even ebony...that the illegal dealings of these items is not funding the very conflicts which are currently tearing the continent apart. These factions will exploit whatever is available at their disposal to fund these conflicts, and the resulting genocide that follows. There is a 'butterfly effect' in place here. You would be foolish to think it is limited to elephants or diamonds, or what ever natural commodity that may currently be in demand....ultimately, there will be a human toll to be extracted....whether directly or indirectly.
We are the custodians of this planet, and we share it with an ever decreasing population of other flora and fauna. And, we are doing a miserable job. As the richest and post powerful nation on this planet, it is up to us to set the example. Our vast wealth and resources will mean nothing when the planet is all but de-void of all that we claim to hold dear.
This isn't just about elephants, or diamonds, or the like......the bottom line here is, this is ultimately about the continued existence of the human race.
To bring this back around to the context of cues.......there are so many varied woods with a myriad of colors and textures, that there really is no need for us to be using ivory in them any longer. If the inlay must be white in color...Holly is a perfectly suitable substitute for inlays....and as has been previously stated, Elforyn is a suitable substitute for use as buttcap, joint, and ferrule material We have so much more available to us to use in respect to make our cues aesthetically pleasing, that the need for the use of ivory just simply isn't needed.
I realize that there are those of you who will, and have, presented the arguments for the use of pre-ban ivory as being acceptable. I guess it just boils down to a matter of conscious. My conscious will no longer allow me to own items containing ivory, diamonds, or any other items that stem from the suffering of those species that cannot protect themselves from our avarice.
And please do not bring in the argument of cows, chicken, sheep, pigs, or wild game...these have been consumed by human beings since the beginning of our existence...for basic subsistence...for both food and clothing. IMHO, the argument is old, and weak....and if it is the best you have in the way of an argument, then perhaps it is time for some self-reflection.
Lisa ----------> who feels the way she feels, and will not be swayed from her convictions...so don't bother to try.
I am guilty of owning one cue my whole life that contained ivory. I no longer own this cue, and, as a matter of personal conscious, will not own another again.
This isn't just about elephants. I hear that there are huge stockpiles of pre-ban ivory, and that those who have the stockpiles, alledgedly wish to sell it for the protection of the remaining elephant population in Africa. While, I believe that there may well be a few well intentioned individuals, the sad truth is, that a good deal of those in positions of power on the African continent, are corrupt.
In the past, it is this very corruption that allowed for the flow (and still does to a certain degree) of conflict or 'blood' diamonds. It allowed for these diamonds to be 'legitimized' and sold to the huge European consortiums. It is absolutely foolish of us to believe that these diamond consortiums were not turning a blind eye to where these diamonds are coming from. And we, as the consumer, didn't really care. Our demand was met...no matter the cost.
It is equally foolish of us to believe that the same does not go for other high demand, governmentally controlled items from the African continent. Where there is a demand, and a limited supply, for whatever reason, a black market will emerge, and thrive.
Also, with all the strife on the African continent, between countries and more localized, the various tribes....we would be foolish to believe that no matter the item in demand, be it diamonds, or ivory...and perhaps in time, even ebony...that the illegal dealings of these items is not funding the very conflicts which are currently tearing the continent apart. These factions will exploit whatever is available at their disposal to fund these conflicts, and the resulting genocide that follows. There is a 'butterfly effect' in place here. You would be foolish to think it is limited to elephants or diamonds, or what ever natural commodity that may currently be in demand....ultimately, there will be a human toll to be extracted....whether directly or indirectly.
We are the custodians of this planet, and we share it with an ever decreasing population of other flora and fauna. And, we are doing a miserable job. As the richest and post powerful nation on this planet, it is up to us to set the example. Our vast wealth and resources will mean nothing when the planet is all but de-void of all that we claim to hold dear.
This isn't just about elephants, or diamonds, or the like......the bottom line here is, this is ultimately about the continued existence of the human race.
To bring this back around to the context of cues.......there are so many varied woods with a myriad of colors and textures, that there really is no need for us to be using ivory in them any longer. If the inlay must be white in color...Holly is a perfectly suitable substitute for inlays....and as has been previously stated, Elforyn is a suitable substitute for use as buttcap, joint, and ferrule material We have so much more available to us to use in respect to make our cues aesthetically pleasing, that the need for the use of ivory just simply isn't needed.
I realize that there are those of you who will, and have, presented the arguments for the use of pre-ban ivory as being acceptable. I guess it just boils down to a matter of conscious. My conscious will no longer allow me to own items containing ivory, diamonds, or any other items that stem from the suffering of those species that cannot protect themselves from our avarice.
And please do not bring in the argument of cows, chicken, sheep, pigs, or wild game...these have been consumed by human beings since the beginning of our existence...for basic subsistence...for both food and clothing. IMHO, the argument is old, and weak....and if it is the best you have in the way of an argument, then perhaps it is time for some self-reflection.
Lisa ----------> who feels the way she feels, and will not be swayed from her convictions...so don't bother to try.
ridewiththewind said:Lisa ----------> who feels the way she feels, and will not be swayed from her convictions...so don't bother to try.
Thanks Lisa for putting a global perspective to the arguement. It's important to note that everyone has different convictions.
Mine have been stated before in other threads, I am against the use of Ivory, but that's personal and I won't hold that against someone else who chooses to have ivory on thier cue.
In that light, I think it's important for those of you who use ivory or whatever not to critisize those who choose not too.
Lisa is also right, bringing non endangered wood, pig skin, or leather from cows into the arguement is lame, old and bordering on the rediculous.
Hambone said:
This is close to my bad-ass baby panda case that I designed
ridewiththewind said:And please do not bring in the argument of cows, chicken, sheep, pigs, or wild game...these have been consumed by human beings since the beginning of our existence...for basic subsistence...for both food and clothing. IMHO, the argument is old, and weak....and if it is the best you have in the way of an argument, then perhaps it is time for some self-reflection.
Lisa ----------> who feels the way she feels, and will not be swayed from her convictions...so don't bother to try.
Lisa, well-written, but animals have been used for more than just food and clothing, since the beginning of our existence. Their bones were used to make tools, their horns and tusks for....ornamentation....for a VERY long time.
runscott said:
Scott, I believe that that was implied with the word 'subsistence'...lol. As to the horns and tusks being used for ornamentation...while this may well be true, usually, these items also had secondary purpose...often as vessels to carry ritual items...often as cups for drinking, in later days, many were used for carrying gunpowder.
In the early days, the pagans were very careful to make sure that the items they took from the 'Mother' were for specific use, and needed.....and then decorated them to celebrate their relationship and worship of the 'Mother'.
As to the African tribes, and their use of ivory as ornamentation...even here, it was very rarely used strictly for ornamentation...and the ivory was usually obtained from a downed elephant. If they were to kill an elephant, you could be sure that there was a use for as much of the elephant as humanly possible, and as part of the tribe's existence. What we may perceive as ornamentation, was actually more often than not, forms of currency, used for trade between the tribes, for goods that may not have been obtainable otherwise. And, the scale of this was fairly small in relation to the ivory that began to be harvested with the advent of the Europeans and other whites landing upon African shores.
Most of the early peoples did not have the luxury of luxury.
Lisa
Last edited:
Just to set the record straight here....so there is no confusion...I am not so foolish to believe that I could actually convince those who have ivory, or who are going to get ivory, in their cues, to give it up. Frankly, that is not too likely to happen...and there will be every argument under the sun presented here to justify the continued use of ivory. However, I do ask that you respect my decision to not use ivory, and my reasoning for it....just as I respect your decision to use it....although I may not agree with it.
All I am asking you who read my comments to do, is to realize that there is 'cause & effect' to everything we do on this planet, and it is we who will be responsible for all that follows.
Lisa
All I am asking you who read my comments to do, is to realize that there is 'cause & effect' to everything we do on this planet, and it is we who will be responsible for all that follows.
Lisa
runscott said:
No....But there was a purpose to every single thing that they did, and used....their very survival was often dependent upon it. Without that purpose, we could not have continued to evolve as a species. Luxury only came into the picture once our basic needs were met.
I am not saying that those who prefer to continue to use ivory...and any other high demand/low supply luxury item are right or wrong...only to consider that there IS a bigger picture.
Last edited:
ridewiththewind said:
Okay, so if early man couldn't make a tool, weapon, or bowl out of it, or trade it for something he could eat, wear, kill people with, or carry stuff around in, it was tossed? Maybe if they had ivory-laden pool cues back in pre-recorded history, those would have been trade items? But someone would have ended up stuck with them...I know - rich people
It boils down to this. Cuemaking is a very competitive business. Drexler told me at SBE that there are around 40 full time cuemakers making a decent living making cues, there are around 400 part timers, and 4000 wannabes. If you want a cue without ivory, someone will build it for you whether they agree with your views or not. If you want to find a cuemaker that does not use ivory because he believes the same as you, so be it. Does it really matter what a caveman did with a deer femur?
I agree, Rat...as I have tried to point out, in at least 2 of my posts....this is a matter, for me, of personal choice and conscious. No where did I ever say the if you choose to have/use ivory in your cues, that you are an evil person. I simply stated MY case as to why I made the choice that I did.
Scott...silly wabbit....cues in pre-recorded history?! Okay, I'll bite.....they would have made for some real flashy clubs...lol.
Lisa
Scott...silly wabbit....cues in pre-recorded history?! Okay, I'll bite.....they would have made for some real flashy clubs...lol.
Lisa
ridewiththewind said:
Lisa,
How much leather you own? I know you ride, I know you own some. You know I have no gray areas and I believe that if you believe in being "green" for elephants you need to do it across the board. If you don't, well then you're being a bit of a 'crite. Killing animals is just that, killing animals. Elephants in theory are no different than cows, chickens or fish. Outside of the endangered issue, which is debatable. As far as their feelings, ever see a goose, sit by the side of the road for their mate that has just been reduced to a pile of feathers? I have, so maybe they have feelings. But to be honest, animals with feelings taste just as good as those that don't.
If elephants were raised for the specific reason to cull ivory, would you have an issue? Would you go to a PETA or Greenpeace meeting wearing your chaps, or jacket? I have no problems in using animal products because... just because. Pigs, chickens, cows, yes the argument would be the same if a screaming veggie was here for the debate instead of you.
JV
classiccues said:
Ahhh, Joe, Joe, Joe.....actually, yes, the leather is gone. And I have pretty much deleted red meat from my diet....it's just a healthier way to live.
About leather...because this I do know first hand...my ol' man worked for many years for a dead animal removal service. Where I live, it's a pretty rural area, filled with dairies. I don't think people realize just how many dairy cattle die of natural causes every single day in this country. And not just the calves, which have a fairly high mortality rate in their first several months of life...but full grown dairy cows as well. A lot of these cows die from mastitis....nasty condition. These animals are picked up and removed to rendering plants, where they are basically broken down into body parts. The hides are stripped and most are bundled for shipment overseas to countries like Pakistan, where they are processed and tanned, and then shipped back to the states for use in various consumer goods. The body parts are sent to yet another rendering plant, where they are further broken down to be processed into various food products....some as pet food, and some as filler for, yes, cattle feed.
Of course, the rest of the cowhides are naturally coming from beef cattle...and I can see why the vegans have issue with those, as they do not eat meat, or use the by-products from those animals that are culled for their meat.
To be fair, there is really no way to tell if the leather you're buying is from a downed cow (dead of natural causes) or cattle that has been lead to slaughter for consumption. I can tell you that my ol' man used to run roughly 15 cows a load to the rendering plant, and would often make sometimes up to 4-5 load runs a day...and his was not the only truck...and this was over a tri-county area.
As to ivory from elephants raised to be culled....for what reason? If the elephants were being raised for human consumption (there is still a famine in many parts of Africa) then perhaps I might not have as great a struggle with my moral conscious if the ivory and skin where by-products....but since this is not the case...there really would be no other reason to cull.
And, as I have previously stated, it is not just about the culling of elephants for ivory....it is a much bigger picture...it is about the human suffering as well that follows when the black market becomes involved in those high demand/low supply items that we in richer nations have to have, for whatever reason.
Lastly, is there really a specific advantage that ivory adds to a cues playability that requires for it to be used? With suitable substitutes available in this day and age, isn't it more just about vanity and bragging rights than anything else?
Lisa
Last edited:
ridewiththewind said:
Lisa,
Yes, ivory ferrules play better. IMHO.
JV
classiccues said:
But what does ivory inlays and/or an ivory buttcap add to a cue's playability? (You knew that question was coming, right?....lol.)
Lisa