A Players 'Union'?

[ironman]

Unions impede progress. A player's organization is NOT a union. It is an arbitrarial tool set in place to keep the players on an even playing field with the tour and the promoters. As I said earlier, if one was in place prior to the start of this IPT season, this late payment issue could have been avoided. Without representation, the players take it on the chin with no way to defend themselves.

It seems that many would see this as a huge gamble. Too much could go wrong. Too hard to oranize the independents.

I say there is no better time , or the time was just perfect. When Kt said, "the money is in the hands of an accounting firm", someone should have been there ask questions instead of taking the word of someone who is just shooting form the hip and giving lip service.

Organization forces people to make right decisions. Everyone is taught early the difference between right and wrong. At times, we take the easy road and know the consequences. In this instance, the IPT could promise anything they want, say what they want, and treat anyone, anyway they wanted without any consequences. Who on earth wants to be in that position again?

Do I feel unification is a good idea? I feel it iis insane not to unify. There is too much to lose.

 

[smittie1984]

Baseball Unions and Football Unions I feel have ruined sports. And thanks to these Unions we pay $6 for a hot dog, $8 for a beer, and the mark up on a product that bears that name is great.

We sell pool balls that have College Team Logos on them for around $200. They are not great balls either. Probably $100 balls without the logo. Pro Balls are even more. We don't even carry them because no one will buy them. I think they are about $300-$400 for NFL teams. Balls probably are worth $100 with normal markings.

The huge mark up is from the NFL selling it's trademarks and trying to make money. But because the Unions or "Players Organizations" demand large amounts of cash for throwing a ball the big wigs pass the cost down to the consumers. Which is us.

Will pool get this way. I seriously doubt it. We'd be lucky to get it to bowling or dart status.

Complaints will be heard and you don't need a lawyer to complain for you.

 

[justnum]

the treatment of players by the IPT is one reason for a players organization.

most of it consists of filling out paper work at federal courthouses.

its really amazing it could be a paperless organization.

 

[Roadie]

Unions are not the reason ticket prices, food, drinks, merchandise is so expensive. Consumer demand is the reason the prices are so high. Because people work themselves into a frenzy over sports they becomes perfect targets for price gouging.

It is a fact of life that vendors will always charge the highest prices they can get away with. It was that way at events in 1850, at the olympics in ancient Greece (ref. The Naked Olympics) and continues to be that way now. If unions add to the cost of entertainment then they are a very neccessary part of the package.

Would it be really worth it to have a $2 hotdog if you knew that the very best players in the world were paid a pittance, treated like dirt, and played a risk filled game with no hope of a pension if they became disabled?

Collective bargaining is the only way to insure anything close to a win/win balance.

If unions were the cause of high prices then education should cost several hundred thousand a year for each student because teachers should be making several hundred thousand each for their services. Despite the fact that a lot of the nations teachers are in unions it still remains one the lowest paid professions in America.

Perhaps the IPT players should demand that Trudeau pay them before they play. Each player gets a cashier's check for $5000 before play begins and then the difference after they are out of the tournament. Then if there are delays at least expenses will have been covered.

Maybe this will inspire some players to band together and bargain collectively.

 

[hilla_hilla]

players union is a big YES!!!

 

[unknownpro]

When the subject was up a while back that was when the funding from the amateur base was suggested. I should have clarified that.

While I do believe that there would b plenty of players who would resent even $1 a week going to the pro ranks I believe that given time they would understand that this would be something that benefits everyone in pool. Especially if it meant that the pros would interact with and help the amateurs more. How about each APA team at playoffs gets a pro advisor? (Just a wild thought)

It's true that there are no direct links between the amateur and professional organizations in the form of amateurs funding pros, at least not that I am aware of. That does not mean that this model could not work.

I really have no idea what the answer is. I believe that it begins with unity. Given that the universe is expanding with things moving apart by nature perhaps unity is too much too expect.

Some day I hope to see Rodney Morris on TV with millions of fans watching and big time sportscasters commentating. I'd like to be able to turn to my friends and say I played pool with that guy. (which I have and got drilled).

This is my dream as a lifetime player who has scuffled and been broke on the road. As someone who has seen more than his share of moves, hustles, traps, dumps and double dumps, dangerous situations, and shaky tournaments. Every player of any skill that I have ever gotten to know well enough dreams of being legitimate and paid for their skills.

There was a thread discussing the definition of a nit. Within that there was a lot of discussion about what is a gambler. I think every pool player goes through the adrenaline phase of winning money by their skills and wit. The really good ones though just get off on winning, and winning tournaments against full fields of champions. They don't want to have to hunt down easy games or fight it out with other champions to make a living.

They want a reasonable shot at enough money to live well if they play well enough to get there. That's it. To be treated with the same respect that their fellow athletes get for the same amount of skill and dedication.

How to get there?????

I wasn't thinking of funding a pro tour with amateur's, just that it should be open to everyone, and works with the sattelite tours. I said it shouldn't be mainly about money, I meant not like health benefits and retirement plans, just get something going first so we can make some money soon.

My first two rules would be open access and open draws. Both violated by the IPT. Their player picks are one reason an org shouldn't be formed to represent IPT players because the first thing it would need to do is get rid of the IPT player list.

unknownpro

 

[Roadie]

Money is the central issue though. Not enough to support the full time pros and not enough to entice full fields of middle class players.

The UPA was open to anyone with the membership money and they weren't able to have full fields despite truly guaranteed prize money.

I think getting to the pro level should be an earned thing. The PGA is not open, nor is the WTA, or the WPBA.

We talk a lot about the pros and cons of the qualifiers for the IPT. It has not been mentioned often that aspiring women professionals are made to fly around the country attending low-payout qualifiers to earn spots in upcoming WPBA events where they then have to finish at a certain level to earn points towards becoming Touring Pros and able to skip the qualifiers.

This system is very hard on some women yet they persist. It is also something that is working for the WPBA to insure that their tournaments are full of the best women players available. No one, except the odd sponsor exemption spot, gets a walk-on at the WPBA.

The pro ranks should be elite. Everyone should know what it takes to get there is more than just money and free time. Somehow this level of play has to funded. It is clear that it cannot be self sustaining, i.e. the players and backers don't care to get together every six weeks to trade money amongst themselves. So how to fund it in such a way that it's win/win/win for the players, fans, and sponsors? This is the perplexing issue.

I believe it begins with a grassroots model. I have to believe that bowling would be a good model for pool. I woud bet that most professional bowlers have done time in leagues. Maybe I am wrong but I don't see a subculture of bowling hustlers and roadies crisscrossing the country following the tournament trail and hitting smaller tournaments along the way to pick up a score. I think that most of the professional bowlers are recruited from the league system. They were the local hotshots or were groomed for it but everyone knew them and just knew that Earl Ray was gonna be a pro. Go to your local league night in pool and start asking about the local gamblers, ask if anyone knows them. Very few of the people playing will know who you are talking about. Why? Because these players don't run in the same circles as the league players do.

No involvement equals no commitment. Why should joe league player in Atlanta care about what Stevie Moore is doing at the pro level? Because they aren't involved in Stevie Moore's life at any level they don't know or care about how well he's doing. However, if Steve had come from the Atlanta leagues, and they made a big deal about it then there would be several thousand more folks who paid attention when he stepped up with the big boys and girls.

As it is though, we have a dichotomy in pool. Leagues and Gamblers/Pros and the two haven't mixed very well yet.

Bring them together and I believe you are well on the way to having the fan base that can and will supports a pro tour. Get that and then you can go for the masses of people who can't play, don't wan't to play but are enthralled by the characters and the action.

 

[vagabond]

And thanks to these Unions we pay $6 for a hot dog, $8 for a beer, and the mark up on a product that bears that name is great.

I am very active in the labor unions and I like to remind everybody:
It is only because of Labor Unions you now have weekends off from work.

 

[unknownpro]

Money is the central issue though. Not enough to support the full time pros and not enough to entice full fields of middle class players.

The UPA was open to anyone with the membership money and they weren't able to have full fields despite truly guaranteed prize money.

I think getting to the pro level should be an earned thing. The PGA is not open, nor is the WTA, or the WPBA.

We talk a lot about the pros and cons of the qualifiers for the IPT. It has not been mentioned often that aspiring women professionals are made to fly around the country attending low-payout qualifiers to earn spots in upcoming WPBA events where they then have to finish at a certain level to earn points towards becoming Touring Pros and able to skip the qualifiers.

This system is very hard on some women yet they persist. It is also something that is working for the WPBA to insure that their tournaments are full of the best women players available. No one, except the odd sponsor exemption spot, gets a walk-on at the WPBA.

The pro ranks should be elite. Everyone should know what it takes to get there is more than just money and free time. Somehow this level of play has to funded. It is clear that it cannot be self sustaining, i.e. the players and backers don't care to get together every six weeks to trade money amongst themselves. So how to fund it in such a way that it's win/win/win for the players, fans, and sponsors? This is the perplexing issue.

I believe it begins with a grassroots model. I have to believe that bowling would be a good model for pool. I woud bet that most professional bowlers have done time in leagues. Maybe I am wrong but I don't see a subculture of bowling hustlers and roadies crisscrossing the country following the tournament trail and hitting smaller tournaments along the way to pick up a score. I think that most of the professional bowlers are recruited from the league system. They were the local hotshots or were groomed for it but everyone knew them and just knew that Earl Ray was gonna be a pro. Go to your local league night in pool and start asking about the local gamblers, ask if anyone knows them. Very few of the people playing will know who you are talking about. Why? Because these players don't run in the same circles as the league players do.

No involvement equals no commitment. Why should joe league player in Atlanta care about what Stevie Moore is doing at the pro level? Because they aren't involved in Stevie Moore's life at any level they don't know or care about how well he's doing. However, if Steve had come from the Atlanta leagues, and they made a big deal about it then there would be several thousand more folks who paid attention when he stepped up with the big boys and girls.

As it is though, we have a dichotomy in pool. Leagues and Gamblers/Pros and the two haven't mixed very well yet.

Bring them together and I believe you are well on the way to having the fan base that can and will supports a pro tour. Get that and then you can go for the masses of people who can't play, don't wan't to play but are enthralled by the characters and the action.

You should have to qualify for a pro tournament by being high enough in the rankings. So there should be an organization that gives points for all the money tournaments already being run around the country so someone can qualify. And then they should have full pro events where there is no entry fee, (free hotel and food would be nice also...).

unknownpro

 

[unknownpro]

I am very active in the labor unions and I like to remind everybody:
It is only because of Labor Unions you now have weekends off from work.

Yeah, without unions, ceo would be making hundreds of millions of dollars off of part time employees with no health insurance working at an ancient minimum wage. Better get back to work Vagabond, best of luck.

unknownpro

 

[Roadie]

Yeah, without unions, ceo would be making hundreds of millions of dollars off of part time employees with no health insurance working at an ancient minimum wage. Better get back to work Vagabond, best of luck.

unknownpro

This is the case in most of the non-union companies. At least in the unionized companies the wages are higher and the benefits are better. In most cases the productivity and efficiency are higher as well.

 

[unknownpro]

This is the case in most of the non-union companies. At least in the unionized companies the wages are higher and the benefits are better. In most cases the productivity and efficiency are higher as well.

No argument, I think it's time for unions to make a comeback. Corporations have no soul, and our government is owned by them.

unknownpro

 

[vagabond]

No argument, I think it's time for unions to make a comeback. Corporations have no soul, and our government is owned by them.

unknownpro

recently the Republican run Governament came with a renewed attack on unions.To reduce the membership in the unions they came up with a new definition of a `supervisory `employee.Supervisory employees can not join the unions.
Long Live Unions!