A Players 'Union'?
- Thread starter ridewiththewind
- Start date
Yes, I realize that. But, just because it didn't work then, doesn't mean it won't work now. Hopefully, the players would have learned something from the past.vagabond said:
For the players to be truly protected, they have to take control.
At the very least, they need some leadership to work with promoters, and sponsors, to create and promote more high quality events.
vagabond said:
The demise of the PCA had nothing to do with the players union at all. The PCA failed because of many factors, most importantly the lack of support they recieved from the industry and pressure placed upon the players from Mackey.
The UPA is a non profit organization. The legal team they have is there to protect the UPA, not the players. The UPA had player representatives, but no official "players" organization. They have an executive board with players represented by two player representatives. IMO, the UPA never matured nor did it reach its full potential due to the lack of support from within the industry. Sound familar? FTR, the UPA also took massive strides to protect the player payouts by ensuring that the added money existed and was placed in escrow prior to the events. This was implemented as response to what happened at Brady Behrman's event as well as the 2001 U.S. Open. FWIW, the IPT is their own organization and they refused to have their events sanctioned by any organization. However, if the players had united and demanded that their events be sanctioned in accordance with UPA/WPA sanctioning guidelines, this non-payment issue for the Reno event would have never occurred. Think about it.
Vagabond, you and I discussed this over dinner when you visited me in El Paso. It is not that the players don't trust each other, it is that they don't have time to worry about things that a tour should PROVIDE for them. Employers are required to PROVIDE health insurance for their employees, yet the employee must still pay a premium for that coverage. Tours should provide the player organization membership option, and the players should be able to decide whether or not they should join. There must be more to membership than just getting legal protection, ie - travel & hotel discount package, and possibly striking a deal with those types of companies for sponsoring this organization in return for using their services exclusively. Yes it can work if you get enough people to work towards its success.
Unions are the best way to ruin anything. Having IPT players Unionize I would feel kill the IPT for sure. Because instead of the owners and organizers of the IPT trying to figure out the best way to run the business. You'll have a Union Rep in there also doing what is best for the players.
Unfortunately sometimes what is best for the players will hurt the business. Because at that point the IPT will be too worried about making the players union happy they'll loose sight of how to increase their business. Which will hurt everyone when the IPT goes under.
Don't Unionize.
Unfortunately sometimes what is best for the players will hurt the business. Because at that point the IPT will be too worried about making the players union happy they'll loose sight of how to increase their business. Which will hurt everyone when the IPT goes under.
Don't Unionize.
smittie1984 said:
Unions impede progress. A player's organization is NOT a union. It is an arbitrarial tool set in place to keep the players on an even playing field with the tour and the promoters. As I said earlier, if one was in place prior to the start of this IPT season, this late payment issue could have been avoided. Without representation, the players take it on the chin with no way to defend themselves.
An idea is to have such an organization be funded and managed by a cooperative of the three major leagues in the country. The APA, BCA, and VNEA. Perhaps the TAP league and the ACS could be part of it as well. The three majors were chosen because they control amateur pool in the USA.
The path to professional status could be through league and tournament play organized through the amateur base. One could become a pro by doing well enough in league competition to earn spots on the pro tour, through qualifier tournaments, through amateur tours and so on.
Trudeau has shown that there are people willing to pay hefty sums to qualify for a tour with guaranteed payouts. (Leaving the unpaid status and discussion of "guaranteed" out for the moment). The Pool Room and Mike Janis have shown that there are plenty of players who will spend $100-$500 trying to win spots in qualifiers.
Another poster has already suggested that $1 from each league player per week funneled towards a pro tour would be enough to fund it forever even without the additional revenue from advertising, admission fees, and the like.
Right now there are professional auto races, tennis tournaments, and golf tournaments in China. This is a country where 800 million people still earn less than $200 a year. Yet Chinese businesses, cities, and government apply to the professional organizations of these sports to be able to host events. A lot of negotiation and details probably have to be worked out before anyone is allowed to host an event. The athletes are taken care of first though it seems.
Trudeau should offer to have the players form their own organization. He should suport it and encourage them to do so. This is off topic considering the above paragraphs but since an alliance on anything is unlikely by the leagues perhaps the players should take the opportunity to do so in Chicago.
As has been noted though, if even the biggest proponents of player strength in the pro ranks, the UPA elite, won't take a stand concerning the IPT on behalf of the players then it is likely that the players just don't want it sadly.
The path to professional status could be through league and tournament play organized through the amateur base. One could become a pro by doing well enough in league competition to earn spots on the pro tour, through qualifier tournaments, through amateur tours and so on.
Trudeau has shown that there are people willing to pay hefty sums to qualify for a tour with guaranteed payouts. (Leaving the unpaid status and discussion of "guaranteed" out for the moment). The Pool Room and Mike Janis have shown that there are plenty of players who will spend $100-$500 trying to win spots in qualifiers.
Another poster has already suggested that $1 from each league player per week funneled towards a pro tour would be enough to fund it forever even without the additional revenue from advertising, admission fees, and the like.
Right now there are professional auto races, tennis tournaments, and golf tournaments in China. This is a country where 800 million people still earn less than $200 a year. Yet Chinese businesses, cities, and government apply to the professional organizations of these sports to be able to host events. A lot of negotiation and details probably have to be worked out before anyone is allowed to host an event. The athletes are taken care of first though it seems.
Trudeau should offer to have the players form their own organization. He should suport it and encourage them to do so. This is off topic considering the above paragraphs but since an alliance on anything is unlikely by the leagues perhaps the players should take the opportunity to do so in Chicago.
As has been noted though, if even the biggest proponents of player strength in the pro ranks, the UPA elite, won't take a stand concerning the IPT on behalf of the players then it is likely that the players just don't want it sadly.
Blackjack said:
Isn't a union by definition an arbitrarial tool for the workers (players) to negotiate with management (promoters) to insure the rights of the workers and the needs of management find a balance that works? Aside from the semantics of whether a "player's organization" and a union are the same or not, how does a union impede progress?
Have unions impeded progress in other professional sports? Professional sports have had times where seasons were interupted which was a dissapointment to the fans but there is little evidence that these sports have suffered a loss of popularity, revenue, or progress through unionizing of them.
Promoters would welcome a solid organization with whom they could negotiate. It would be less of a burden if they were guaranteed to have a full field, players who acted professionally, and something they could confidently advertise.
Unfortunately, pool players are very much like the old time gunslingers. They have mostly spent a life of roaming from spot to spot and fighting it out for an ultimately meager survival with their entire net worth in their pocket at any given time. A few I know have managed to build up a certain amount of security but they are in a very small minority. This atmosphere does not inpsire trust and collective thinking for the greater good.
When I was on the road my partners and I looked at every spot as predators. We were there to rob the room before they robbed us. We weren't too concerned about whether the money in the tournament was guaranteed or not. We were there too get as much of the tournament money and as much of the room's money as we could, since we knew it was the same thing. And every player we encounted had the same mindset. We there to score for ourselves with no concern about how our fellow players were doing. Sure, we'd let a player bite us if we liked them, but make no mistake we didn't care one bit about those we didn't know too well and not much more about those we did.
It is my hope to see an end to this mindset among America's players. It appears that this is not the case among Asia or Europe's players to the extent it is in the USA. The gunfighter image and mindset has it's place among the subculture of gamblers but no place in the world of professional sports because professional sports are about crowning champions for public consumption. The public's appetite is what feeds the professional athlete not the income of other athlete's and their sponsors.
smittie1984 said:
Repsectfully disagree. The IPT has made lofty promises. Specifically, Trudeau has made those promises and "guarantees" to the players. As we can see, without any sort of checks or verification of his ability to back those statements the players are left without income to balance the expenses they incurred. Not to mention the mental anguish endured by those players through the last month.
The phrase "best for" is often used a bit incorrectly to mean that it is unfairly benefical for one side. "Best for" should be a win/win situation. In this case Trudeau would like to have the best "product" to sell and the players would like to have a guarantee of income for their efforts. At the moment however Trudeau has achieved the goal of getting the best product though hundreds of hours of content showing the best players in the world competing at their most intense for what they thought was a guaranteed prize. Arguably, the very best performance possible at the time of play that could be had. The players, for their efforts, received nothing but empty promises, false guarantees, and worst of all, an absolute lack of respect and dignified treatment. Certainly a win/lose situation for the IPT - Player dynamic.
From a business perspective an IPT-Player lose/win situation cannot exist. So it wouldn't happen. Right now everything is in the IPT's favor so it will definitely continue to be win/lose because of the precarious postion of the players. A union would only be able to either make the partnership win/win or expose an faulty business model.
Disregarding funding of the organization, or if it's a union or not, perhaps people could talk about the actual structure or rules it should have to avoid the pitfalls of previous organizations.
unknownpro
unknownpro
watching the IPT on VS saturday I think it was during the match after hohman and diks. KT is talking and says these guys are playing for a lot of money.
Usually this wouldnt be a concern. But thinking about it it seems like the biggest names in pool are paying to be filmed and compete.
But that remark just really stuck with me. Who was there to represent the players about disclosure agreements, rights to be filmed, and distribution of the IPT dvd.
I do remember an argument about KT sayin IPT players can only play IPT events. I cant imagine what kind of write up he told his lawyers to protect his cash and any loopholes he left so he is not legally obligated to payout.
Usually this wouldnt be a concern. But thinking about it it seems like the biggest names in pool are paying to be filmed and compete.
But that remark just really stuck with me. Who was there to represent the players about disclosure agreements, rights to be filmed, and distribution of the IPT dvd.
I do remember an argument about KT sayin IPT players can only play IPT events. I cant imagine what kind of write up he told his lawyers to protect his cash and any loopholes he left so he is not legally obligated to payout.
I personally believe that there are to many different personalities and ego's for something like this. Maybe an organization similar to the PBT would work if it was for the betterment of the players. I once asked a NAMED Pro what happened to the mens tour and his answer was quite simple. They imploded from within themselves. If there was an organization that could control all of the players and their ego's then maybe it could work. Let this organization charge a small sanctioning fee to cover most of the expenses and guarantee that a promoter will have atleast 32 of the top 64 players in the world show up. I believe that is what the PBT originally did. I found this out while talking with Howard Vickery at one of the old BC Open tournaments in Binghamton NY. I believe that he was the one writing the checks. But the players have to commit to it from the beginning. Have a committe of players that would control the players with fines suspensions and what ever rules that need to be enforced. Atleats try to calm some players tempers down some...just my usual ramblings......mike
unknownpro said:
A good place to start might be to simply adopt the bylaws of the PGA. Golf seems to be a good parallel to pool and Trudeau has said that the IPT is modeled after the PGA. The PGA however is a player's association and it seems to be working pretty well. Why not use a proven model?
I voted "yea", but until there is a demand for the service they provide by the general public I think it is moot whether they do or do not organize. The service they provide being playing pool to be viewed by others.
Wow....we are getting some great dialog going here, and this is a good thing. It shows me that perhaps we are beginning to learn from our 'mistakes' as a sport, and know that good, bad, or otherwise, we recognize that some things just must change, if our sport is to grow.
Please let me clarify my use of the word 'union'. First, as a journalism major in school...I knew it would grab attention to this thread.
Second, I used it because, if you notice, MLB players have a union, as I believe do the NFL players. They set up these organizations to protect themselves from unfavorable contract conditions of the owners of the teams...and it works for them. I remember a conversation that I participated in with Curt Shilling, in a Phillies forum back during the last baseball strike. Yes, salary caps was part of it, but he was the first to admit that he felt he got paid too much to play a game, when people like teachers are paid so little. He stated that beyond the salary caps issue, that the players had concerns about the owners unscrupulous trading pratices, amongst other issues. This what a 'union' or organization or association can do for the players who are the ones actually providing the draw. Dave is right, without the players, there are no tours. The players can always generate income by hitting the road, as in days past...the tours do not have the same luxury....they are completely dependent on the players, not the other way around.
The trick here is to get the players, as a whole, to truly realize their VALUE. They ARE the product, and as such, they should benefit accordingly. Once that mindset has truly taken hold, then an organiztion to help protect that product should follow easily. If ever there were time when that should be more apparent to them, it should be now, with the recent 'developements' currently taking place with those who have participated as an IPT cardholder.
I cannot think of anyone in the US that would tolerate not being compensated for services rendered.
Since Dave is closer to the subject than I, I am sure he would love to open a dialog with reference to possible structuring and rules/by-laws that might be set down. He is truly sincere in his efforts to help this sport become a real and viable entity.
Lisa
Please let me clarify my use of the word 'union'. First, as a journalism major in school...I knew it would grab attention to this thread.
Second, I used it because, if you notice, MLB players have a union, as I believe do the NFL players. They set up these organizations to protect themselves from unfavorable contract conditions of the owners of the teams...and it works for them. I remember a conversation that I participated in with Curt Shilling, in a Phillies forum back during the last baseball strike. Yes, salary caps was part of it, but he was the first to admit that he felt he got paid too much to play a game, when people like teachers are paid so little. He stated that beyond the salary caps issue, that the players had concerns about the owners unscrupulous trading pratices, amongst other issues. This what a 'union' or organization or association can do for the players who are the ones actually providing the draw. Dave is right, without the players, there are no tours. The players can always generate income by hitting the road, as in days past...the tours do not have the same luxury....they are completely dependent on the players, not the other way around. The trick here is to get the players, as a whole, to truly realize their VALUE. They ARE the product, and as such, they should benefit accordingly. Once that mindset has truly taken hold, then an organiztion to help protect that product should follow easily. If ever there were time when that should be more apparent to them, it should be now, with the recent 'developements' currently taking place with those who have participated as an IPT cardholder.
I cannot think of anyone in the US that would tolerate not being compensated for services rendered.
Since Dave is closer to the subject than I, I am sure he would love to open a dialog with reference to possible structuring and rules/by-laws that might be set down. He is truly sincere in his efforts to help this sport become a real and viable entity.
Lisa
It was also mentioned here the possibility of allowing amatuers and semi-pro players to participate in such an organization. It would certainly open it up to all that play, and definitely generate more funding.
Setting up a points system via tournament participation @ the amatuer/semi-pro level certainly could be a viable option. Again, using the MLB as an analogy...they have their Minor and Major League teams. Those who particiapte in the minors, always have the opportunity to make it to the majors, should their level of play allow them to advance.
I know that I would join such an organization that might allow me advancement, should I earn it.
Lisa
Setting up a points system via tournament participation @ the amatuer/semi-pro level certainly could be a viable option. Again, using the MLB as an analogy...they have their Minor and Major League teams. Those who particiapte in the minors, always have the opportunity to make it to the majors, should their level of play allow them to advance.
I know that I would join such an organization that might allow me advancement, should I earn it.
Lisa
pharaoh68
Banned
Snapshot9 said:
I have to agree with Scott here. A player's union might not work because, like he said, only a small percentage of these player's are full-time, touring professionals who make their income solely off of tournaments. A large majority make their money through 'day' jobs and through gambling. And another point that Scott makes... try collecting dues and see how that goes. After a while, the Union would fold under the weight of its own players.
Roadie said:
Roadie, I read back through all the previous posts and couldn't find this suggestion. Maybe I read too fast, I don't know. Let me tell you why I think this idea sucks.
What I believe would happen in this scenario would be that my $6.00 per match fee would soon rise to $7.00 per match. The places where the current $6 is being funneled to aren't going to take a kick-in-the-pants for the "pros" to make a better living. The only thing to do would be to raise the current fee. I myself don't want to make a weekly contribution to help the pros, who are probably already wealthier than I am, make a better living. And, I'm pretty sure there would be THOUSANDS of other league members that feel the same way. Let them pay their own dues, if there has to be any.
We don't pay dues to help out professional football, baseball, basketball,etc. players unions although we can play in organized leagues representing these sports all the time. Just my $.02, for what it's worth.
Maniac
All pro sports organizations could be looked at to find ideas, but the way to make the most of pool is to emphasize the uniqueness of pool in the sports world. I think that requires a different type of organization entirely than the PGA and ATP examples, which are too much business centered, from what I have read. Let the organization concentrate on the pool aspect of tournaments, formats, points, rankings, eligibility and let the money aspects come second.Roadie said:
unknownpro
When the subject was up a while back that was when the funding from the amateur base was suggested. I should have clarified that.
While I do believe that there would b plenty of players who would resent even $1 a week going to the pro ranks I believe that given time they would understand that this would be something that benefits everyone in pool. Especially if it meant that the pros would interact with and help the amateurs more. How about each APA team at playoffs gets a pro advisor? (Just a wild thought)
It's true that there are no direct links between the amateur and professional organizations in the form of amateurs funding pros, at least not that I am aware of. That does not mean that this model could not work.
I really have no idea what the answer is. I believe that it begins with unity. Given that the universe is expanding with things moving apart by nature perhaps unity is too much too expect.
Some day I hope to see Rodney Morris on TV with millions of fans watching and big time sportscasters commentating. I'd like to be able to turn to my friends and say I played pool with that guy. (which I have and got drilled).
This is my dream as a lifetime player who has scuffled and been broke on the road. As someone who has seen more than his share of moves, hustles, traps, dumps and double dumps, dangerous situations, and shaky tournaments. Every player of any skill that I have ever gotten to know well enough dreams of being legitimate and paid for their skills.
There was a thread discussing the definition of a nit. Within that there was a lot of discussion about what is a gambler. I think every pool player goes through the adrenaline phase of winning money by their skills and wit. The really good ones though just get off on winning, and winning tournaments against full fields of champions. They don't want to have to hunt down easy games or fight it out with other champions to make a living.
They want a reasonable shot at enough money to live well if they play well enough to get there. That's it. To be treated with the same respect that their fellow athletes get for the same amount of skill and dedication.
How to get there?????
While I do believe that there would b plenty of players who would resent even $1 a week going to the pro ranks I believe that given time they would understand that this would be something that benefits everyone in pool. Especially if it meant that the pros would interact with and help the amateurs more. How about each APA team at playoffs gets a pro advisor? (Just a wild thought)
It's true that there are no direct links between the amateur and professional organizations in the form of amateurs funding pros, at least not that I am aware of. That does not mean that this model could not work.
I really have no idea what the answer is. I believe that it begins with unity. Given that the universe is expanding with things moving apart by nature perhaps unity is too much too expect.
Some day I hope to see Rodney Morris on TV with millions of fans watching and big time sportscasters commentating. I'd like to be able to turn to my friends and say I played pool with that guy. (which I have and got drilled).
This is my dream as a lifetime player who has scuffled and been broke on the road. As someone who has seen more than his share of moves, hustles, traps, dumps and double dumps, dangerous situations, and shaky tournaments. Every player of any skill that I have ever gotten to know well enough dreams of being legitimate and paid for their skills.
There was a thread discussing the definition of a nit. Within that there was a lot of discussion about what is a gambler. I think every pool player goes through the adrenaline phase of winning money by their skills and wit. The really good ones though just get off on winning, and winning tournaments against full fields of champions. They don't want to have to hunt down easy games or fight it out with other champions to make a living.
They want a reasonable shot at enough money to live well if they play well enough to get there. That's it. To be treated with the same respect that their fellow athletes get for the same amount of skill and dedication.
How to get there?????
Blackjack said:
Agreed, for every problem, there is a solution. As for the players, it has to be sold to them with the idea of positive results. Pool Players are so weary fo it,s supporters attitudes these days. Nothing, nothing is is ever positive. Nothing will ever work. It is all they hear.
Yearly dues, I believe to be the perfect idea. Most are not hard to track down these days, there simply too many ways to comunicate. They need a very good understanding as to how this would work and benefit them as well.
This lateset FIASCO should indeed be the wake up call and someone should have been right in the IPT"S face that Sunday when the checks weren't there and then again on Monday morning. The prize fund should be the last thing on earth the players should have to worry about.
Selling it though, is not going to be any easy chore though. I feel the first order of business before this can work though, is a TOUR. Until they are paid and PAID IN FULL, I see no evidence of any tour at all.