A Smile Underneath The Mask

vader93490

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The 2006 IPT World Open was completed nearly two months ago. Two hundred players participated in this tournament with many countries being represented from around the globe. Efren Reyes, a three-time world eight ball champion, won the tournament & was awarded a five hundred thousand U.S. dollar first place prize. As of this writing, that’s all the advertised prize money was, an award on paper.

Anyone who reads pool forums regularly knows that on the uncommon occurrences I have written on them I have steadfastly been against the IPT organization from its beginning. My reasons for my dislike of the organization & its powers-that-be have not changed at all since I first came out against the IPT over a year ago. Consequently, I was insulted, berated, & labeled many things both on pool forums by the various starry-eyed groupies who frequently write on them and offline in private conversations. Many friendships were irretrievably lost when I made my opposition to the IPT publicly known over a year ago when it first began. In spite of mounting public & private opposition, I did not change my opinion of the organization & stood up for what I felt was the right course of action in my not getting involved with some criminal bastard asswipe like Kevin Trudeau & participating on his IPT tour.

Upon hearing of the recent IPT payment woes I had to really laugh out loud. Why? It’s because I have absolutely NO sympathy for the players not being paid any prize funds from the 2006 World Open tournament in Reno, not one iota. So why do I have no sympathy for the IPT participants who so willingly affiliated themselves with the IPT?

First, there is Kevin Trudeau as an individual. He’s a known liar, a fast-talking criminal bastard who has shown no qualms whatsoever in misleading uninformed or desperate people in the hope of making a fast buck through his nonsensical “infomercials”. Then there are the shady & otherwise questionable business practices with his “Natural Cures” line of products, the details of which are easily found on numerous websites. Those should have been gigantic warning signs, but again nobody wanted to hear about it. Then there were the highly touted “guarantees” by Kevin Trudeau of IPT affiliated players earning magical high dollar incomes. Again, that was another giant red flag but it was promptly ignored.

There were other events that signaled to me the IPT was not to be trusted. Some notable examples have been the deliberate “cram it up your ass” attitude the IPT showed with other pool organizations like the WPA, the conflicts with the US Open 9-ball Championships (especially with the recent brazen attempt to try to distribute IPT literature at the tournament without Barry Behrman’s permission to do so) & the talk of a potential sale by Kevin Trudeau of the IPT organization to an individual named Stanley Ho for 150 million U.S. dollars, a man who owns many gambling casinos in Hong Kong & other Oriental locations who allegedly has even BIGGER criminal ties with organized crime, a fact that is yet again easily researched & viewed on many websites.

Regarding the televised coverage, there were warnings as well. The 2005 “world championship” mis-match between Mike Sigel & Loree Jon Jones was a huge slap in the face to professional pool. The subsequent 2005 “King of the Hill” farce that followed a few months later along with the 2006 North American Open repeatedly showed me that the IPT would be just another ridiculous organization in professional pool’s sordid past.

In spite of all these ominous signs, there were still numerous IPT participants insisting that the IPT be given un-wavering support in spite of their acknowledging Trudeau’s questionable past business dealings. These are the people who I especially have no sympathy for. You all knew damn good & well when you were signing up to play on the IPT that Trudeau had a checkered past, you all acknowledged it publicly at some point on the various pool forums & newsgroups or in offline conversations with me. In spite of that, your greed ultimately got the better of you; you gleefully applied & you were accepted into the initial IPT player roster. All of you just had to get your hands on that blood money that Kevin Trudeau was throwing around like some warped version of a pied piper. And now, you’re stuck with no prize money, you now only have vague assurances through various e-mail announcements from your precious “savior” Kevin Trudeau that you’ll eventually get your prize money along with a supposed “bonus” for being so patient while you continue to wait on your prize money checks.

Even if the IPT does manage to get all of the players paid who played in the 2006 World Open, the damage has already been done. What little credibility professional pool may have enjoyed with the general populace has now been undone. I wish I could say that I was surprised that this non-payment fiasco in Reno happened but I’m not.

I initially thought that the past fiascos with the Camel Tour & Don Mackey some years ago would have served as a useful learning experience to not to be so trusting to get involved with someone as questionable as Kevin Trudeau; I see now that line of thought was erroneous. History needed to repeat itself & will do so again when the next individual as questionable as Kevin Trudeau barges into the professional pool world with vague promises of fame, fortune & glory for pool’s best players all while throwing around misbegotten monies for those dumb or naïve enough to snatch it.

To conclude, the protests of the players & their starry-eyed IPT groupie fan base not getting any advertised prize monies from the 2006 World Open tournament will fall on deaf ears with me. Don’t look to me for any sympathy because you will not get it in any fashion from me. The IPT participants only have themselves to blame for knowingly getting involved with someone as questionable as Kevin Trudeau, therefore allowing professional pool to get stomped on & kicked in the nut-sack yet again. All the while the IPT participants are whining about no checks, I will be smiling underneath the mask. Even if the IPT participants are paid in full at some point, I will be still be smiling underneath the mask. Therefore, I suggest they break out some hot dogs along with some marshmallows, drink some Kool-Aid flavored crocodile piss calcium peptide from “Natural Cures”, join hands around the campfire & sing ”Kumbiya” because my instincts tell me any prize checks being written will be a long time coming, if they even come at all. As the saying goes, you made your own bed now lie in it.
 
My only comment: Trudeau's past was in no way questionable. KT's past is public record, and he is dirty to the core. Right from the beginning, there was more than just the figurative "writing on the wall"; there was a big neon-lit van circling the block with a loudspeaker blaring "KT is nothing but a liar! Beware!". You just had to be willing to add it ALL up, not just the dangled dollars. Live and learn, I guess.
 
People just couldn't pass up $100,000 guaranteed?

Doesn't everyone keep saying he guaranteed it?

He wouldn't lie would he? Oh wait, he is a known liar.

They all knew the odds. That was the chance they took.
 
cuetique said:
My only comment: Trudeau's past was in no way questionable. KT's past is public record, and he is dirty to the core. Right from the beginning, there was more than just the figurative "writing on the wall"; there was a big neon-lit van circling the block with a loudspeaker blaring "KT is nothing but a liar! Beware!". You just had to be willing to add it ALL up, not just the dangled dollars. Live and learn, I guess.

The point I'm re-iterating is that the players should have known better than to get involved with some criminal bastard like Kevin Trudeau. I thought the veteran players should have been cautious when Trudeau first started making his so-called "promises" of fame, fortune & glory. I was wrong in thinking that would happen.

The gleefulness that the IPT participants showed when they fell over themselves applying to be associated with the IPT only underscored their greed. They were just frothing at the mouth like a bunch of rabid dogs at the prospect of having that blood money that Trudeau was throwing around. Instead of having quick riches, they only illustrated how easily they could be bought & have their opinions swayed with the prospect of quick riches being dangled in their collective faces. Consequently, I am entirely unsympathetic to the Reno non-payment issue.

I wrote & voiced my opinions over a year ago on the subject of Kevin Trudeau, bringing up his past mis-deeds; no one wanted to hear about it. As I said in the opening post on this thread, I was boo'ed, branded a "nay-sayer", "excessively negative", & other uncomplimentary terms both online in these pool forums & offline. In spite of that, I held to my opinion. I wasn't worried about how the players chose to perceive me as I got the same crap when I made my objections known to the Camel Tour some years ago & was proven correct in my mis-givings on that tour.

When I first started hearing about the Reno non-payment, I smiled underneath the mask. When I read about the proposed "settlement" last evening while I was opening this thread, I smiled even more broadly & laughed. History is repeating itself again & again despite what the IPT apologists would like to think.
 
vader93490 said:
The point I'm re-iterating is that the players should have known better than to get involved with some criminal bastard like Kevin Trudeau. I thought the veteran players should have been cautious when Trudeau first started making his so-called "promises" of fame, fortune & glory. I was wrong in thinking that would happen.

The gleefulness that the IPT participants showed when they fell over themselves applying to be associated with the IPT only underscored their greed. They were just frothing at the mouth like a bunch of rabid dogs at the prospect of having that blood money that Trudeau was throwing around. Instead of having quick riches, they only illustrated how easily they could be bought & have their opinions swayed with the prospect of quick riches being dangled in their collective faces. Consequently, I am entirely unsympathetic to the Reno non-payment issue.

I wrote & voiced my opinions over a year ago on the subject of Kevin Trudeau, bringing up his past mis-deeds; no one wanted to hear about it. As I said in the opening post on this thread, I was boo'ed, branded a "nay-sayer", "excessively negative", & other uncomplimentary terms both online in these pool forums & offline. In spite of that, I held to my opinion. I wasn't worried about how the players chose to perceive me as I got the same crap when I made my objections known to the Camel Tour some years ago & was proven correct in my mis-givings on that tour.

When I first started hearing about the Reno non-payment, I smiled underneath the mask. When I read about the proposed "settlement" last evening while I was opening this thread, I smiled even more broadly & laughed. History is repeating itself again & again despite what the IPT apologists would like to think.


Well I'm glad someone is enjoying this, sounds more like being right is where the true satisfaction lies..........plus maybe rubbing it back in others faces helps make you feel better.
What I want to know, is the purpose of your post to say "I told ya So"?
If so OK.
 
Island Drive said:
Well I'm glad someone is enjoying this, sounds more like being right is where the true satisfaction lies..........plus maybe rubbing it back in others faces helps make you feel better.
What I want to know, is the purpose of your post to say "I told ya So"?
If so OK.

The point, "Island Drive", is to show that the players (veteran & youngster alike) willingly & gleefully sold out, all to get some blood money table scraps from Kevin Trudeau like a bunch of under-nourished lap dogs. Some of the players are still exhibiting that mentality in spite of what happened with the Reno non-payment with their blind loyalty to their precious pool "savior".

In spite of what I & others tried to advise the players regarding Kevin Trudeau & his past criminal activity with his credit card fraud & his continuing Natural Cures company mis-deeds along with the overall questionability of the IPT as a veritable pool organization over a year ago, they gleefully & without hesitation applied to be on the IPT player roster. Therefore, if some "organic" sea-salt gets rubbed into the player's wounds by what I said about my smiling & laughing when I was first told about the 2006 World Open non-payment fiasco, so be it as they deserve to get that "organic" sea-salt rubbed in & more. The greed the players showed regarding the IPT speaks for itself more loudly than any laugh I could utter or smile under the mask I could proffer when I first heard about it. Even in spite of that, I am still smiling & laughing about the non-payment. There is no sympathy on my part regarding their non-payment woes nor will there be.

When I played pool in the past, it was about a genuine fascination with pool & desire to learn is in's & out's. It wasn't about being on the fast track to monetary riches & it certainly wasn't about performing for some criminal bastard like Kevin Trudeau like a trained seal.
 
your making a whole lot of noise.

I've seen many of the IPT players and know they have families. If greed ever played a part it would be more obvious.

But it wasnt the greed it was what any reasonable working family member does. Some people have the option to work more hours.

Pro pool players dont have that option.
 
What an interesting post. It's difficult to believe that anyone could derive so much enjoyment from this, but I guess if it has made you happy then keep on smiling. Human nature should never really surprise us.

Personally I will not pass judgement on players' collective or individual perceived greed, stupidity, naivety or anything else, I will simply re-iterate that I hope they get the money they were promised and that better times lie ahead for all concerned.
 
justnum said:
your making a whole lot of noise.

I've seen many of the IPT players and know they have families. If greed ever played a part it would be more obvious.

But it wasnt the greed it was what any reasonable working family member does. Some people have the option to work more hours.

Pro pool players dont have that option.

I'm fully aware that some of the IPT participants have families, "Justnum". Are you saying that because some of the IPT participants have families that those individuals aren't greedy, that they're not out for a fast US dollar? Do you think I should have some sympathy for those IPT players with families due to their not getting paid in Reno? Guess what, I don't.

You can call my current words & past warnings about Kevin Trudeau, the IPT & its powers-that-be whatever you like. While you're doing so, keep this in mind: it's not going to change a thing. History is repeating itself with the non-payment from the 2006 World Open & there is nothing you or the IPT participants & apologists can do about it.
 
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"Underneath the Mask" is the operative term here. Vader, your opposition to the IPT is well known. However you never offered any viable alternative to those people who either do or want to make pool their professsion.

At this point the players are uniting in to insure that they can be equal partners at the table. A year ago that wasn't much of an option for them. A big new promotor comes along promising more than anyone else has ever dared to. Yes, his past is checkered, but he doesn't deny his past either, he owns up to it and claims redemption. Then he makes good on his promises by holding a gala event and paying everyone who played.

Sure, there was plenty of stuff for folks like your self to make predictions on. But those predictions were easy to make, like shooting fish in a barrel. The much harder thing to do was to look beyond what was concerning Trudeau and work and hope for what could be. That's the essential division between those that were primarily negative from the beginning and those that were primarily positive.

A year ago Vader the players had nothing to bargain with. Even had they had unity they still would have been in a much weaker position because the IPT adventure was untried and nothing preceding it had matched the scale and scope. So the likely outcome of Mr. Sapolis' suggestion to organize a year ago, while a worthwhile endeavor, quite possibly would have resulted in Trudeau opting out at that point. Would that have been good? Perhaps in terms of the volume of emotional swings the experience has generated so far but not in terms of allowing for a chance that something truly fanatastic might have resulted.

Now though, the players do have some leverage. They are legally owed 3 million dollars. The players fulfilled their part of the contract and Trudeau/IPT stands in breach of their side. And the players now have the valuable experience of seeing that it is possible to have professional events on the scale of Tennis and Golf. And alog with that comes the chance to be screwed in the largest way possible as well. The IPT proved that players are willing to work very hard to be professionals. It proved that there are hundreds of players worldwide who are talented enough to compete on the world stage and that these players would compete. The extension of that is another tier of players that number in the thousands and tens of thousands that can make up the base to supply pros for the IPT. The IPT can be analyzed in hindsight a million ways and those that predicted it's demise can mold those predictions around any set of events as they see fit. The point is though that the IPT tested a lot of things that were previously only concepts.

The quote about better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all comes to mind. The current situation boils down to two groups. One is the promoter's group who brought the concept and the investment money, and the other is the group (as yet not unified) of players who provide the product. It is up to those two groups to define their relationship. One year ago the definition was dictated to the players by the promoter. One year later the players are in a better position to negotiate or at the very least to use the experience as a platform to grow as a group. None of this would have come to pass had anyone heeded your predictions and declined to participate with Trudeau.

Life is all about experience. It would have been tragic if the players had not gone for the gold ring. For them and for the fans. As fans we have been treated to some of the best drama on the table that has ever been produced. Players were playing the absolute best they could under tremendous amounts of pressure. I would bet anything that Alex Pagulayan felt as much or more pressure playing in the qualifiers to earn a "Tour Card" as he felt in the finals of the US Open or the World Championships.

Any "I told you so" statements are truly hollow at this point. Would you i all honesty have taken the chance at a better life and taken away the briliant experiences that the players have had throught the IPT based on Trudeau's past?

I submit to you Vader, that if you had had the power to mke the choice a year ago, with no changes allowed, either yes go with Trudeau as he laid it out or decline, what would have been your choice, and keep in mind that your single choice speaks for 150-200 players? What choice would you have made for these 200 people?
 
BigMalUK said:
What an interesting post. It's difficult to believe that anyone could derive so much enjoyment from this, but I guess if it has made you happy then keep on smiling. Human nature should never really surprise us.

I'm glad that you found my post interesting, "BigMalUK". However, it's not that difficult to believe if you're someone like me who can't be bought or swayed by ridiculous claims from a criminal like Kevin Trudeau.

BigMalUK said:
Personally I will not pass judgement on players' collective or individual perceived greed, stupidity, naivety or anything else, I will simply re-iterate that I hope they get the money they were promised and that better times lie ahead for all concerned.

There's nothing "perceived" about what you mentioned regarding the IPT participant's greed, stupidity, etc. Kevin Trudeau made promises of "guaranteed" fame, fortune & glory to those who were swayed by his warped pied piper act. Those players who bought Trudeau's wild claims went for his blood money that he made off of desperate & dying customers just like a pack of rabid dogs. They leaped before they looked & have no one else to blame but themselves.

As I said over a year ago, the board was set & the pieces went into motion. What is being seen now with the non-payment from Reno along with other IPT mis-deeds coupled with any proposed "settlement" is the end result of said player greed.
 
Roadie said:
"Underneath the Mask" is the operative term here. Vader, your opposition to the IPT is well known. However you never offered any viable alternative to those people who either do or want to make pool their professsion.

That would depend on what you have read previously or who you may have asked previously about what I've written regarding the IPT & Kevin Trudeau, "Roadie". I have spoken about pool organizations before & what I think should be going on with them. I guess you missed seeing them. :confused:

Even though I don't participate in pool forums regularly, I've heard privately from those who do regularly participate that more than a few threads that were against the IPT have been deleted on this particular forum in the past for whatever reason the host or moderators felt they needed to delete them. If they weren't, then they must be around here somewhere. I'm not 100% certain on the forum functions, that's nothing new. If the statements I wrote were inadvertently deleted along with removed threads by the host or moderators in charge of this particular pool forum, then so be it. I can't control what they do behind the scenes.

However, on the off-chance you're referring to a "viable alternative" as to mean my throwing money at the various pool players around the globe, then you would be correct in that assertion. I have not done that.

Roadie said:
At this point the players are uniting in to insure that they can be equal partners at the table. A year ago that wasn't much of an option for them. A big new promotor comes along promising more than anyone else has ever dared to. Yes, his past is checkered, but he doesn't deny his past either, he owns up to it and claims redemption. Then he makes good on his promises by holding a gala event and paying everyone who played.

That was spoken like a through & through Trudeau apologist. Let me be the first to applaud you for your mis-placed loyalty regarding his "gala" events, to quote you, & his bullying tactics such as was so readily demonstrated at this year's US Open.

If it will make you feel better, I can donate a clean, genuinely earned US penny to you if you think it will help you out financially. On second thought, I'd better not, you'll just wind up giving it to Kevin Trudeau & I do hate to see good money go to waste. ;)

Sarcasm aside, you're beginning to bore me with this dribble about player unification regarding the Reno tournament. Are you possibly looking for some leftover table scraps the IPT players missed from their "savior" Kevin Trudeau? Maybe you will get lucky & find enough blood-soaked US nickels that Trudeau conned out of some of his desperate or dying victims under the table or in his gold-plated crapper as well so you can have something to rub together at the bar next time you visit it.

Roadie said:
Sure, there was plenty of stuff for folks like your self to make predictions on. But those predictions were easy to make, like shooting fish in a barrel. The much harder thing to do was to look beyond what was concerning Trudeau and work and hope for what could be. That's the essential division between those that were primarily negative from the beginning and those that were primarily positive.

I don't look at "working" for some criminal ass-wipe like Kevin Trudeau as a good thing. If you want to believe the crap that comes out of his mouth about whatever subject he's talking about, be it his & Mike's version of so-called "professional" pool or Trudeau's magical crocodile piss coral calcium peptide cure-all's, that's your business. If you want to waste your time ingesting or otherwise fooling around with something like what Trudeau offers, feel free to do so. It's your body, not mine.

Roadie said:
A year ago Vader the players had nothing to bargain with. Even had they had unity they still would have been in a much weaker position because the IPT adventure was untried and nothing preceding it had matched the scale and scope. So the likely outcome of Mr. Sapolis' suggestion to organize a year ago, while a worthwhile endeavor, quite possibly would have resulted in Trudeau opting out at that point. Would that have been good? Perhaps in terms of the volume of emotional swings the experience has generated so far but not in terms of allowing for a chance that something truly fanatastic might have resulted.

You call an organization like the IPT fantastic? That's rich. The past tournaments have been nothing but complete & utter farces. I've seen sports entertainment events from at least two & a half decades ago that looked better than anything the IPT ever produced if the pictures I've seen in the past that starry-eyed groupies have put up on pool forums like this one are any indication.

Furthermore, I don't waste my electricity on viewing stupidity like what the IPT offers on television as far as "professional" pool. The IPT is not "Real" pool, to borrow one of the IPT catch-phrases.

Roadie said:
Now though, the players do have some leverage. They are legally owed 3 million dollars. The players fulfilled their part of the contract and Trudeau/IPT stands in breach of their side. And the players now have the valuable experience of seeing that it is possible to have professional events on the scale of Tennis and Golf. And alog with that comes the chance to be screwed in the largest way possible as well. The IPT proved that players are willing to work very hard to be professionals. It proved that there are hundreds of players worldwide who are talented enough to compete on the world stage and that these players would compete. The extension of that is another tier of players that number in the thousands and tens of thousands that can make up the base to supply pros for the IPT. The IPT can be analyzed in hindsight a million ways and those that predicted it's demise can mold those predictions around any set of events as they see fit. The point is though that the IPT tested a lot of things that were previously only concepts.

You're really beginning to bore me now with this nonsensical BS of yours. Do you have any proof of said legally binding contracts that Trudeau signed 100% guaranteeing this money? Would you be willing to put them up on here if you have access to them? Or are you merely going on mis-guided hope yet again that a legally signed & dated written contract between Trudeau & the IPT participants is in existence?

Roadie said:
The quote about better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all comes to mind. The current situation boils down to two groups. One is the promoter's group who brought the concept and the investment money, and the other is the group (as yet not unified) of players who provide the product. It is up to those two groups to define their relationship. One year ago the definition was dictated to the players by the promoter. One year later the players are in a better position to negotiate or at the very least to use the experience as a platform to grow as a group. None of this would have come to pass had anyone heeded your predictions and declined to participate with Trudeau.

Spare me your Trudeau apologist crap. Your hero worship of the guy is really just utterly pathetic. I wish I had a barf bag handy as your defense of the guy just makes me sick.

Had the players listened more carefully to what I & others like Mr. Sapolis (since you brought his name up) had to say over a year ago regarding the IPT & Kevin Trudeau, they wouldn't find themselves in their current non-payment predicament. But, that's not what happened. Their collective greed manifested itself & they are paying the price for that greed.

Roadie said:
Life is all about experience. It would have been tragic if the players had not gone for the gold ring. For them and for the fans. As fans we have been treated to some of the best drama on the table that has ever been produced. Players were playing the absolute best they could under tremendous amounts of pressure. I would bet anything that Alex Pagulayan felt as much or more pressure playing in the qualifiers to earn a "Tour Card" as he felt in the finals of the US Open or the World Championships.

True enough, life is all about experience. As I have said previously, Don Mackey & the Camel Tour showed me quite a bit about what professional pool can be & still is currently. I observed more than I care to remember & believe me when I say this, I am glad I listened to my instincts & passed on getting involved with it.

What Alex may or may not be feeling when he is playing I can't speak for as I'm not Alex. I would not presume to speak for whatever emotions go through his mind.

Roadie said:
Any "I told you so" statements are truly hollow at this point. Would you i all honesty have taken the chance at a better life and taken away the briliant experiences that the players have had throught the IPT based on Trudeau's past?

That earned a smile under the mask. You've already demonstrated more than enough "hollowness" on your own part by blindly following Kevin Trudeau around like a good little lapdog. Does he throw you a dog treat when you roll over? Or does he reserve that for when you play dead at his feet upon his command? Are the treats he throws your way organic or something bought from a regular grocery store?

There is no such thing as a "better life" from a dirtbag like Kevin Trudeau. By your own words, I can only infer that you think a "better" life is one filled with money & materialistic things along with empty promises of the same, no matter who or where it comes from.

I don't call anything Trudeau offers as "brilliant". Furthermore, I certainly don't call the IPT "brilliant" by any stretch.

Roadie said:
I submit to you Vader, that if you had had the power to mke the choice a year ago, with no changes allowed, either yes go with Trudeau as he laid it out or decline, what would have been your choice, and keep in mind that your single choice speaks for 150-200 players? What choice would you have made for these 200 people?

What is the point of asking me a question like that when you already know what my stance on the IPT has been from its beginning? You yourself acknowledged my opposition to the IPT was well-known at the start of your reply. The warnings were out there regarding Kevin Trudeau. In spite of that, the IPT participants gleefully applied to be on the roster all in the hopes of getting some mis-begotten US dollar bills.

However as your mis-guided loyalty did amuse me earlier, therefore I will humor you this once & answer you. If I had the choice, I would have had their heads examined for even CONSIDERING getting involved with someone like Kevin Trudeau. Joining an organization that is funded by ill-gotten funds is not what I call "going for the brass ring", to quote you. I have no need for thirty pieces of silver, whereas you on the other hand obviously do.

Unfortunately, the choice was not mine to choose save for myself, the other players fell over themselves to get involved with his organization. The result of their gleeful & greedy participation was ultimately history needing to repeat itself yet again.

As I have said in the previous months, there were many people who really pushed hard at me to join the IPT. "Think of the money you can get" was what one individual told me who applied. Needless to say, I passed on joining without hesitation. I stuck to my opinions about Kevin Trudeau, the IPT & its powers-that-be. If my holding myself to a higher standard other than a trained seal who barks whenever a fish is thrown its way offends or otherwise baffles you, so be it.

I take pride in the fact that money does not dictate how I feel regarding life's situations. I feel that is what enables me to see past the various con jobs that a criminal like Kevin Trudeau throws at the world.

When I first started this topic, I was smiling under the mask. Even if the players are paid, that will still be the case. History obviously needed to repeat itself to the players & they got the kick in the ass they richly deserved. There will be NO sympathy from me regarding the IPT woes, not one iota. If what I said has rubbed some "organic" sea-salt in the player's wounds, so be it, hopefully it will burn this memory of the 2006 World Open into their collective consciousness deeply enough that they will think twice about so hastily getting involved with the next person with a Trudeau-like background next time something like that occurs.

With that, I will say good day to everyone from Parts Unknown. See you all next time when I have some more time to kill on a pool forum in the next month or two.
 
justnum said:
your making a whole lot of noise.

I've seen many of the IPT players and know they have families. If greed ever played a part it would be more obvious.

But it wasnt the greed it was what any reasonable working family member does. Some people have the option to work more hours.

Pro pool players dont have that option.

No, they have the option to drop out of "pro" pool and get a real job.

If they don't have a realistic chance at consistently making $35,000 a year + travel expenses, then they are not a pro. Well, whaddaya know......

I think there are only like 15 or 20 "pros" in America.

As far as being a "reasonable working family member", sorry.. I don't think that term applies to most pool players. If you have to either rely on winning multiple major tourneys, or have to rely on being able to find 20-30 people who don't know how well you play and are willing to lose 1K + in a matchup, then that's not a real job. That's a hobby that makes a little money. And keeps you away from your family for the majority of the year.

I'd much rather be a regular pool player than a pro pool player. That way, I can keep a little (lot) of money in my pocket, and not be constantly broke.:D :D :D

Russ
 
Vader.......your last post was grossly unreasonable in respect of your assessment of Roadie's attitude.In fact in these forums he has exhibited one of the most consistently intelligent,impartial and objective attitudes to the IPT situation.

The very notion that Roadie is an apologist for KT is absurd and such an opinion is in no way substantiated by anything he has contributed.
As you are clearly not one to countenance any possibility of ever being mistaken there is probably little point in explaining the reasoning behind this opinion or in quoting you any of the many pieces of substantiative evidence to back it up.......but rest assured that on this point you are 100% wrong in the conclusions you have jumped to.

Your general sentiments about IPT are probably shared by the majority of contributors to these forums.The intensity of your sentiments towards the players who became involved in qualifiers and events is unlikely to be shared by many,no matter how "right" you were,but expressing them make you happy.......and that's all that really matters isn't it?
 
What I find amusing, is Vdr has been down this road before and I wonder how many years ago 'someone' (or maybe no one) told him how mistaken he was to make that choice, its no different now, just you've been through it and don't want to get burned again and you hate seeing your peers go through it. I'm with ya on that.

Here's a good quote from Clint Eastwood that relates to the current situation.

In life, playing it safe 'is' what's risky, because nothing new comes out of it.

Your either a defensive player, an offensive player or your learning to become a player. You sound like you'll never take a gamble again on ******** "ever" unless you have the best of it. If you choose to be hateful because of not getting what your deserve, you've gotten much better at being at that......or you can grow in your wisdom from your mistakes instead of growing in anger.
You sound so much like the way I was at one time, hope this post helps you. I know getting older and making better decisions has helped my sanity, but blasting away at everyone because you know what is right and wrong is not a good way to get your point across. Look at us as your children, use the wisdom you have to be more constructive, and by the way I don't go to church, my kids cultivated my sanity.
 
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Well Vader, you are quite clear about your points. Thank you for deigning to respond. I also appreciate the insults, berating, & labeling that you have done with me. IT seems as though you have a lot of anger in you because, as you say, these things were done to you by, to use yoru words, "by the various starry-eyed groupies who frequently write on them (forums) and offline in private conversations."

I can see in this light how any disagreement with you can be met by vehemence. And my intention is not to change your viewpoint which is quite clearly entrenched and fortified.

Where we disagree is on the subject of redemption and progress. I hope that you will understand that given the passion and vehemence of your response to me that I do not go back and review all of your posts concenring the IPT. Given the bitter experiences you have had concerning professional pool organizations (based on your own words with no other corraboration.) I can guess that there are probaby some nuggets of wisdom concerning what an ideal situation for professional pool and it's players should be. But I don't have the energy, time or desire to seek out what has probably already been said by people with less bitterness and vitirole.

On the subject of redemption. My view is that people are ever changing as is the world, morality is dependent on culture and circumstance. Resources flow and flux constantly. Thus I choose to adopt a flexible attitude towards someone like Trudeau. Personally it gives me more satsifaction to deal with what is rather than what was or what may be. What is in front of me now is that which I must react to.

A year ago the unorganized group of people who chose to play a game and pursue it as a sport were approached by a promoter who promised them that he shared their dreams. They could only deal with Trudeau as individuals since they had no collective voice. You made your choice based on your convictions. Why impose that on everyone else though? Not that I expect an answer since you have already told me that you would only humor me once, but I would like to know if, as an individual with such high standards ("I don't need 30 pieces of silver"), if you still play pool in tournaments, do you scrutinze the entire business to makes sure that the "money" is 'cleanly' earned and all those responsible for promoting and running it are with criminal convictions of any sort? I doubt that you do, and if you do then it must affect your ability to play and perform to high levels. Back to redemption, on the possibility that Trudeau was sincere in both his ability and conviction, the players as individuals pursuing their art really had no choice but to follow along, the alternative being left out of the dominant professional circuit should things go as planned. Kind of like the faith asked of Christians. I.e. If the bible is wrong then it's no matter really, but if it's right then you're screwed if you didn't play along. (tangent - of course if you just "play along" without really believing then you're screwed anyway if the bible is true.) You're right though, fear is the basis for continued survival. It is important to be afraid of things that can hurt you and treat them with caution and respect if you don't want to be eradicated. "once burned, twice shy" sort of thing. So you're attitude is undrstandable if somewhat sad. Because it is my opinion that a life lived in fear and distrust fear is not a quality one. Which is why I don't condemn the players for going for the gold ring (not brass) and I don't condemn Trudeau for creating the IPT.

I can see that you feel that an experience bought with what you call "blood money" is not a worthy one. Well, we are going to have to disagree about that as well. I will certainly agree that any experience can be tainted by circumstances that brought it about. If you are convinced that Trudeau is evil and the money he used to throw his pool party was stolen from little old ladies at three am then I can agree that it would be difficult to enjoy the ride. However, if you don't make that connection and believe that people possess a basic intelligence that they use when making purchases from infomercials, then it becomes much easier to enjoy a world where a guy can write a book which is essentially a rant with no real corraboration and start a pool tour off of it. So it's a question of how you choose to view the world. You appear to be pretty far to one side and when you are far out there it's definitely a journey to come to any other place. Sometimes it's more comfortable to stay there. It's interesting that you chose the name Vader and use the mask as your symbol when the character of Darth Vader is the classic example of redemption and the idea that good and evil are constantly in flux and never rigid.

On the subject of progress: It happens through experience. It takes a Kevin Trudeau to attempt something like the IPT to move forward. Nothing happens simply by talking about it. If people were to remain frozen when adverse things happen we wouldn't be much more advanced beyond prehistory. We certainly wouldn't have the luxury of debating these concepts from across the world as time would all be concerned with survival. Fear impedes progress. So I find it to be sad that you woud impose your fear of betrayal on your fellow man and thus impede their progress based on your personal disdain.

I still feel that your "I told you so" is completely hollow. I do understand the underlying fear that is the basis for your opinions but the glee shown at the pain of the players being felt characterizes you as patently more "evil" than the man you vilify. At least he had the wherewithal to try something even if he couldn't escape his own ego. And at least the players had the faith to try even in the face of a suspect history.

Now, they will hopefully learn from the experience, inspired by the grand and fantastic (yes, they were fantastic, look it up) tournaments, and tempered by the insecurity a one-sided relationship produces to form an organization that brings them closer to the dream they all share.
 
Roadie,

What position would you like to have if the players organize?

AH's alliance would be valuable in that event.

History has proven that the best time to seek or establish a power base is during turmoil. Looks like we both read the same books.

There's no doubt you'd be a viable candidate. Maybe the BEST!!

Do you prefer "Roadie" or can I use your name?

Hit m straight
'
 
justnum said:
your making a whole lot of noise.

I've seen many of the IPT players and know they have families. If greed ever played a part it would be more obvious.

But it wasnt the greed it was what any reasonable working family member does. Some people have the option to work more hours.

Pro pool players dont have that option.


lol, this post makes absolutely no sense. Its like I've always said and told many players that I know, if playing pool for a living isn't putting food on the table then change professions. I know a lot of players that scuffle around and just barely scrape by and that is fine for them. The ones that are single can play enough to pay the bills and if that suits them, then ok, fine by me. What I have a problem with, is when some players act like just because they play good pool, the world owes them something. If you have a family to support and pool isn't paying the bills, then you should go to work doing something else, period. So, in response to this post, pro pool players do have the option to work more hours, they just choose not to.
 
ribdoner said:
Roadie,

What position would you like to have if the players organize?

AH's alliance would be valuable in that event.

History has proven that the best time to seek or establish a power base is during turmoil. Looks like we both read the same books.

There's no doubt you'd be a viable candidate. Maybe the BEST!!

Do you prefer "Roadie" or can I use your name?

Hit m straight
'


I'd prefer to be able to watch my friends doing what they do best where their only worry is whether they are going to be able to get by the side pocket.

And a chance to play and take my shot at going as far as my talent will take me should I choose to.

Otherwise I am content to be on the outside looking in. While I feel that a strong organization is what the players need, I don't want to be an active part of running it. Helping to facilitate it would be my pleasure to donate some time. Once done though so I am I because my spirit runs more to creation than maintenance.

Because I wish to remain anonymous as regards this board please contact Mike Howerton who has my real email address that I used to sign up and I will be more than happy to work with you in any fashion I can.
 
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