a thank you to CJ Wiley

ps611846 said:
Yeah, he has been a contributor to this forum.

He posted about things that work in this game and not about hitting center cue ball !!!! And developing a perfect pendulum stroke.

He knows that center cue ball doesn't exist and there is no top player on this planet using ccb in his game.

People say TOI deflects the cue ball. I say TOI and TOO swerve the cue ball and combined with visual alignments and footwork (the same footwork doesn't work for both TOI and TOO....) will allow the player to learn how to perfectly pocket balls at any speed. Speed control is the real secret. Most people miss shots because of SPEED. And it is much easier to master speed control if you don't try to hit ccb.

He also said that Efren Reyes uses the same method (TOI - TOO) and some idiots were laughing at him.

Sure, it's better to have a team of "instructors" and "scientists" - "experts" (lollllll) in this forum and keep the good players out of here.

And I am also sure that none of these "experts" would play CJ for money (lol again). Actually, none of them can beat a good C player.....
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I may not have an understanding of the meaning of what inside and outside english mean. What I always thought outside english was, may actually be inside english (and vice versa). This may be why the TOI system makes no sense to me. Would it have been possible for CJ to maybe where a pair of glasses with a camera on them, so that the viewer can actually see what type of english he is using on his shots? Because I can't tell from the camera angle of his video's. He explains what he is doing, but the viewer can't actually see exactly what english he is using on the cue ball. Maybe a virtual pool game can be created (by the pool scientists) so that you can study exactly what would happen when you apply different amounts of english to the cue ball, in different situations (sounds like a silly idea I guess).
 
justinb386 said:
Maybe from A level to AAA (triple A) level? Or from solid B to a solid double A (AA) level? Just a few idea's on what he may mean, lol.
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The guy whose post you're talking about, "poolmanis" -- from Finland -- is an *excellent* non-pro player. Definitely an A-level player now. Here's a vid he made of himself running 80 balls while describing every shot choice as he's shooting::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-E8IE1ZdhE

Try doing that sometime (and in his non-primary language, yet!).

(Btw, be sure to watch the ingenious double-carom "wrap-around" shot he comes with when he's in a jam at the 47:00 point of the video that seems certain to end his run.) His reaction to making the shot is priceless.

Arnaldo
 
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I'm just amazed at how accurately all these league players and amateurs can strike the cue ball, makes you wonder why they are not pro's?
 
justinb386 said:
I may not have an understanding of the meaning of what inside and outside english mean. What I always thought outside english was, may actually be inside english (and vice versa). This may be why the TOI system makes no sense to me. Would it have been possible for CJ to maybe where a pair of glasses with a camera on them, so that the viewer can actually see what type of english he is using on his shots? Because I can't tell from the camera angle of his video's. He explains what he is doing, but the viewer can't actually see exactly what english he is using on the cue ball. Maybe a virtual pool game can be created (by the pool scientists) so that you can study exactly what would happen when you apply different amounts of english to the cue ball, in different situations (sounds like a silly idea I guess).
Click to expand...

If you are cutting a ball to the left then hitting the cue ball with the tip on the left side of the center line of the cue ball would be putting Inside english on the ball & the hitting the cue ball with the tip to the right side of the center line of the cue ball would be putting outside english on the ball.

It is inside & outside of the angle formed by the line from the cue ball to the object ball & then the angled line to the pocket.

That said... The TOI that CJ uses is NOT for the purpose of spinning the ball per say. He is doing it to use the cue ball squirt from the slightly off center hit to add cut to the shot from how it is aligned... & to use the small amount of spin to offset the outside rotation that the cue ball picks up from striking the object ball off center.

For those purposes the speed of the shot is rather vital. If one hits the CB too softly it will swerve back in the opposite direction of the squirt if not hit precisely on the equator of the ball or perhaps slightly above that because the cue stick is angled slightly downward... & that would defeat the intentions of his purposes... that is why he stressed hitting the shot will acceleration & not any deceleration.

I hope this gives you a bit better understanding. CJ's TOI was NOT for the purpose of spin other than that small bit that is basically a side effect given his purpose for using it to pocket balls.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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tap tap tap.....

Mole Eye said:
A thank you note to Mr. Wiley, as I applied some advice he gave me some time ago last night and won the local 8 ball tournament. I'd played around some with the TOI, but never could convince myself to use it full time. Last night, I used it exclusively and shot much better than I normally do. Thought Mr. Wiley should get the credit.
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Congrats to you. Good job on improving your game. We all (newbies to veterans, and D to A players) learn from listening, watching, and experimenting with what we absorb. AZB is great for this sharing! Glad you found some 'gold'.

td
 
arnaldo said:
The guy whose post you're talking about, "poolmanis" -- from Finland -- is an *excellent* non-pro player. Definitely an A-level player now. Here's a vid he made of himself running 80 balls while describing every shot choice as he's shooting::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-E8IE1ZdhE

Try doing that sometime (and in his non-primary language, yet!).

(Btw, be sure to watch the ingenious double-carom "wrap-around" shot he comes with when he's in a jam at the 47:00 point of the video that seems certain to end his run.) His reaction to making the shot is priceless.

Arnaldo
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I am sorry, I was just being silly. I honestly meant no offense toward him.
 
ENGLISH! said:
If you are cutting a ball to the left then hitting the cue ball with the tip on the left side of the center line of the cue ball would be putting Inside english on the ball & the hitting the cue ball with the tip to the right side of the center line of the cue ball would be putting outside english on the ball.

It is inside & outside of the angle formed by the line from the cue ball to the object ball & then the angled line to the pocket.

That said... The TOI that CJ uses is NOT for the purpose of spinning the ball per say. He is doing it to use the cue ball squirt from the slightly off center hit to add cut to the shot from how it is aligned... & to use the small amount of spin to offset the outside rotation that the cue ball picks up from striking the object ball off center.

For those purposes the speed of the shot is rather vital. If one hits the CB too softly it will swerve back in the opposite direction of the squirt if not hit precisely on the equator of the ball or perhaps slightly above that because the cue stick is angled slightly downward... & that would defeat the intentions of his purposes... that is why he stressed hitting the shot will acceleration & not any deceleration.

I hope this gives you a bit better understanding. CJ's TOI was NOT for the purpose of spin other than that small bit that is basically a side effect given his purpose for using it to pocket balls.

Best Wishes,
Rick
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That all sounds really interesting. I am still too stupid to understand what all that means, but it sounds interesting. I finished watching the video that someone posted above, with CJ running the 2 racks of 15 ball rotation, and in his 2nd rack, I started to understand about where exactly he was striking the cue ball (using inside english). I am interested to give it a try next time I practice, to try to use TOI on all of my shots. Maybe it will help me control the cue ball better. It is worth a try, just for fun, to practice it for at least a little while. I was curious to watch CJ in a match that I noticed (from 2014 I think), that was against Archer, and I seen that he was not using his TOI system during the match. I seen him using outside english on many of the shots. I am sure that I could adjust to using TOI, even though it would be uncomfortable, but I am not sure if it will really help. I am willing to give it a try though.
 
justinb386 said:
That all sounds really interesting. I am still too stupid to understand what all that means, but it sounds interesting. I finished watching the video that someone posted above, with CJ running the 2 racks of 15 ball rotation, and in his 2nd rack, I started to understand about where exactly he was striking the cue ball (using inside english). I am interested to give it a try next time I practice, to try to use TOI on all of my shots. Maybe it will help me control the cue ball better. It is worth a try, just for fun, to practice it for at least a little while. I was curious to watch CJ in a match that I noticed (from 2014 I think), that was against Archer, and I seen that he was not using his TOI system during the match. I seen him using outside english on many of the shots. I am sure that I could adjust to using TOI, even though it would be uncomfortable, but I am not sure if it will really help. I am willing to give it a try though.
Click to expand...

You really should NOT think of TOI as inside english. To me the two are totally different & the reason is which one would I be using for what purpose. CJ calls it TOUCH of Inside. Whatever word you would use to denote the smallest amount is how you should think of it.... a smidgean, a pinch, a hair, or whatever.

The purpose of it is not what spin would do. The focus is the bit of squirt that it sends the CB OUT to the outside... to add cut to the shot while 'holding' the CB fromm running away. It allows one to stroke more firmly & not have the CB get loose.

Picture setting up to undercut a shot so that the object ball would hit the under cut point of the pocket when hitting the cue ball at center with the tip... then do NOT pivot but instead make a TINY parallel shift so the tip will hit the CB just a tad, a hair to the inside of the center line & stroke firmly.

The CB will squirt in the opposite direction of the tip offset & the firm hit is to keep swerve/curve out so that the CB makes contact a bit more to the outside than what the alignment was & that sends the OB to the center of the pocket... or that is how it should work.

Hit not firmly enough & the CB curves back & the shot is undercut. Hit firmly but with too much inside offset & the ball squirts too much & the shot is over cut.

It is a very dynamic method & basically requires Feel. CJ has said that one should spend a solid two hours hitting EVERY shot with it to have the eye opening awakening.

When I first tried it I did not give it two hours but he was correct. When I gave it two hours it fell into place.

A key is to not pivot the cue but to make it a parallel shift & that is not as easy as some might think because the tip is so small compared to the butt end. CJ suggested to move the butt end first & then the tip end... I found to just sort roll the cue a touch t the inside worked well.

I hope something here encourages you to give the 2 hours.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS It is nearly impossible to tell when CJ is using it or not. He said that he always uses it for every shot even when he is letting the CB pick up the outsid spin from the collision or if he wants to add some outside english before the collision... because he always 'starts' from the TOI approach & will pivot back to center or past center for outside spin.
 
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Tramp Steamer said:
He was a good contributor, but he was only here for one thing.
To sell stuff.
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I live in Dallas TX and guarantee if you or any of these haters wanna come for a visit for the weekend and play some nine ball for $ with CJ I will personally pick you up from the Airport and take you to our local pool room and let you try him out . Then I'll play you some after that . He has helped me a lot . Sure must be nice to be perfect like all these haters . Or to make it easy on y'all we will come to you .214-937-1972 talk to y'all soon .I'm off for two weeks and CJ would love to show y'all what's up!
 
gypsy_soul said:
I live in Dallas TX and guarantee if you or any of these haters wanna come for a visit for the weekend and play some nine ball for $ with CJ I will personally pick you up from the Airport and take you to our local pool room and let you try him out . Then I'll play you some after that . He has helped me a lot . Sure must be nice to be perfect like all these haters . Or to make it easy on y'all we will come to you .214-937-1972 talk to y'all soon .I'm off for two weeks and CJ would love to show y'all what's up!
Click to expand...

Well, y'all will just have to forget about it 'cause I'all has better things to do. Maybe some of the other'alls can go.
Besides. I'm not a CJ hater at all. :p
 
gypsy_soul said:
I live in Dallas TX and guarantee if you or any of these haters wanna come for a visit for the weekend and play some nine ball for $ with CJ I will personally pick you up from the Airport and take you to our local pool room and let you try him out . Then I'll play you some after that . He has helped me a lot . Sure must be nice to be perfect like all these haters . Or to make it easy on y'all we will come to you .214-937-1972 talk to y'all soon .I'm off for two weeks and CJ would love to show y'all what's up!
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Gypsy..I was never a hater!..I used to enjoy pulling CJ's chain, to try and get a rise out of him.. He is a better player than I am, at all games except one pocket!..I considered it an absolute joke, that he insisted anyone could learn to play one pocket, in just a few weeks time!..I was never alone in that line of thinking! :embarrassed2:

I also never bought into his theory on 'TOI'..Almost all top players avoid using inside english (even a tiny bit) unless absolutely necessary!..And breaking the pocket down into three parts, made even less sense!..What worked for him, I never felt was beneficial to the 'newbies' he was always trying to promote his stuff to! :rolleyes:

PS..At my age (83) I had to give up playing about 5-6 yrs ago.. If I were just 10 yrs younger, CJ (or you) could sure have gotten it on, playing some high $$$ one pocket!..I don't think you'll find anyone on here, who knows me, that will doubt that I would have played! :cool:
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Gypsy..I was never a hater!..I used to enjoy pulling CJ's chain, to try and get a rise out of him.. He is a better player than I am, at all games except one pocket!..I considered it an absolute joke, that he insisted anyone could learn to play one pocket, in just a few weeks time!..I was never alone in that line of thinking! :embarrassed2:

I also never bought into his theory on 'TOI'..Almost all top players avoid using inside english (even a tiny bit) unless absolutely nesessary!..And breaking the pocket down into three parts, made even less sense!..What worked for him, I never felt was beneficial to the 'newbies' he was trying to promote his stuff to! :rolleyes:

PS..At my age (83) I had to give up playing about 5-6 yrs ago.. If I were just 10 yrs younger, CJ (or you) could sure have gotten it on, playing some high $$$ one pocket!..I don't think you'll find anyone on here, who knows me, that will doubt that I would have played! :cool:
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I miss you and CJ jousting on the WEB....you were both good at the give and take.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Gypsy..I was never a hater!..I used to enjoy pulling CJ's chain, to try and get a rise out of him.. He is a better player than I am, at all games except one pocket!..I considered it an absolute joke, that he insisted anyone could learn to play one pocket, in just a few weeks time!..I was never alone in that line of thinking! :embarrassed2:

I also never bought into his theory on 'TOI'..Almost all top players avoid using inside english (even a tiny bit) unless absolutely necessary!..And breaking the pocket down into three parts, made even less sense!..What worked for him, I never felt was beneficial to the 'newbies' he was trying to promote his stuff to! :rolleyes:

PS..At my age (83) I had to give up playing about 5-6 yrs ago.. If I were just 10 yrs younger, CJ (or you) could sure have gotten it on, playing some high $$$ one pocket!..I don't think you'll find anyone on here, who knows me, that will doubt that I would have played! :cool:
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Have you ever given a tip on how to do anything?

Why don't you give a few pointers on something?

I have never felt that you have posted anything beneficial to help anybody's game.

You just seem to jump in and condemn or ridicule people who are trying to help someone.

Just because you can't do it or understand it, doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to somebody else. If CJ can do it, it means it can be done. Why couldn't someone else do it?

Make a one-pocket DVD and show us how it's done.
 
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HawaiianEye said:
Have you ever given a tip on how to do anything?

Why don't you give a few pointers on something?

I have never felt that you have posted anything beneficial to help anybody's game.

You just seem to jump in and condemn or ridicule people who are trying to help someone.

Just because you can't do it or understand it, doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to somebody else. If CJ can do it, it means it can be done. Why couldn't someone else do it?
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Why are you so quick to condemn and ridicule me?..Unlike you, (and CJ) I do not feel a burning desire, to impress people with how smart I am!..What 'pointers' I give, I choose to give on a pool table, where I can show someone..one on one, while giving them lessons!......You guys have apparently not figured out yet, that it just doesn't work that way (in text) on a forum!..You'll 'real-eyes' that someday! (maybe :confused:)

PS..Heres a good pointer for you..dummy up about trying to tell me that CJ has done anything worthwhile, other than confuse people!.. Maybe it would help if he threw in a little more 'zen' and 'jui-jitsu', and pictures of himself! :confused:
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Why are you so quick to condemn and ridicule me?..Unlike you, (and CJ) I do not feel a burning desire, to impress people with how smart I am!..What 'pointers' I give, I choose to give on a pool table, where I can show someone..one on one, while giving them lessons!......You guys have apparently not figured out yet, that it just doesn't work that way (in text) on a forum!..You'll 'real-eyes' that someday! (maybe :confused:)

PS..Heres a pointer for you..dummy up about trying to tell me that CJ has done anything worthwhile, other than confuse people! :rolleyes:
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I am able to learn things by reading...are you not?

Are you unable to convey information in a written format so that people can understand it?

Maybe it is too hard to talk about bunting balls into rails for hours on end.

You complain about tip threads, you complain about WWYD threads, you complain about threads where somebody is giving pointers.

Why do you come here, if it is only to complain?

CJ never confused me. The only people who may have been confused were those that were unable to read or complete rookies.
 
HawaiianEye said:
I am able to learn things by reading...are you not?

Are you unable to convey information in a written format so that people can understand it?

Maybe it is too hard to talk about bunting balls into rails for hours on end.

You complain about tip threads, you complain about WWYD threads, you complain about threads where somebody is giving pointers.

Why do you come here, if it is only to complain?<--???

CJ never confused me. The only people who may have been confused were those that were unable to read or complete rookies.
Click to expand...

You should be the last person in the world, to complain about somebody complaining! ..Except for bragging about how much money you win playing pool, complaining is about all you ever do on here! (except for n**-hugging CJ) :(

But you do type good! ;)
internet-date.jpg
 
ENGLISH! said:
You really should NOT think of TOI as inside english. To me the two are totally different & the reason is which one would I be using for what purpose. CJ calls it TOUCH of Inside. Whatever word you would use to denote the smallest amount is how you should think of it.... a smidgean, a pinch, a hair, or whatever.

The purpose of it is not what spin would do. The focus is the bit of squirt that it sends the CB OUT to the outside... to add cut to the shot while 'holding' the CB fromm running away. It allows one to stroke more firmly & not have the CB get loose.

Picture setting up to undercut a shot so that the object ball would hit the under cut point of the pocket when hitting the cue ball at center with the tip... then do NOT pivot but instead make a TINY parallel shift so the tip will hit the CB just a tad, a hair to the inside of the center line & stroke firmly.

The CB will squirt in the opposite direction of the tip offset & the firm hit is to keep swerve/curve out so that the CB makes contact a bit more to the outside than what the alignment was & that sends the OB to the center of the pocket... or that is how it should work.

Hit not firmly enough & the CB curves back & the shot is undercut. Hit firmly but with too much inside offset & the ball squirts too much & the shot is over cut.

It is a very dynamic method & basically requires Feel. CJ has said that one should spend a solid two hours hitting EVERY shot with it to have the eye opening awakening.

When I first tried it I did not give it two hours but he was correct. When I gave it two hours it fell into place.

A key is to not pivot the cue but to make it a parallel shift & that is not as easy as some might think because the tip is so small compared to the butt end. CJ suggested to move the butt end first & then the tip end... I found to just sort roll the cue a touch t the inside worked well.

I hope something here encourages you to give the 2 hours.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS It is nearly impossible to tell when CJ is using it or not. He said that he always uses it for every shot even when he is letting the CB pick up the outsid spin from the collision or if he wants to add some outside english before the collision... because he always 'starts' from the TOI approach & will pivot back to center or past center for outside spin.
Click to expand...

Okay, so it is just about aiming, and not about where you strike the cue ball. That is interesting, Thanks for your time, but all of this stuff is still way over my head (my understanding). I can try using TOI for 2 hours, but it is going to be TOI that I use when I strike the cue ball, on follow through (if that is how I am aiming), Sorry that I am not understanding the real meaning of CJ's TOI. Thanks.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Gypsy..I was never a hater!..I used to enjoy pulling CJ's chain, to try and get a rise out of him.. He is a better player than I am, at all games except one pocket!..I considered it an absolute joke, that he insisted anyone could learn to play one pocket, in just a few weeks time!..I was never alone in that line of thinking! :embarrassed2:

I also never bought into his theory on 'TOI'..Almost all top players avoid using inside english (even a tiny bit) unless absolutely necessary!..And breaking the pocket down into three parts, made even less sense!..What worked for him, I never felt was beneficial to the 'newbies' he was always trying to promote his stuff to! :rolleyes:

PS..At my age (83) I had to give up playing about 5-6 yrs ago.. If I were just 10 yrs younger, CJ (or you) could sure have gotten it on, playing some high $$$ one pocket!..I don't think you'll find anyone on here, who knows me, that will doubt that I would have played! :cool:
Click to expand...

Why do you think that anyone can't learn 1 pocket? It is true that just anyone can't learn to become a very strong 1 pocket player, but it is not true that anyone can't learn the game and enjoy playing it. I knew a guy that was a horrible 9 ball player, but he loved to play 1 pocket, so we would always play 1 pocket. I was never very good at the game (because I was never good at banks either), but I always liked the game. It is a great game.
 
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