A word to the wise.

realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
A word to the wise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I'd take a second to mention that I feel at some point down the not to distant road, Diamond is going to take my advice and stop producing tables with slates that require wood backing in order to install the bed cloths. When this happens I think everyone is going to see other manufactures follow in Diamonds foot steps. I've said it for a long time, when manufactures back the slates with particle board or mdf, they may be cutting corners and costs today, but SOMEONE is going to PAY for that little costs cutting corner somewhere down the road!!!! I'm almost done with my pictorial and written directions for installing the bed cloths with my gluing system, so they'll be available shortly, backed up with the DVD showing the same process, I'm advising everyone to pay attention and learn it as soon as you can, because it may not be soon enough for the future if you wait to long

Glen, the "Realkingcobra"

PS. The only reason I mentioned this in the main forum is because YOU the buyer of the tables with particle board or MDF backing on the slates are the ones that are going to be paying that price down the road sooner or later if you own any pool tables with slates manufactured like this:D The particle board and MDF does NOT hold up over time. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to:D but you'll find out sooner or later, and when you do, you'll wish you had a mechanic that knew how to install the cloth with my system:D instead of paying someone to tear your table apart and charge you to install new backing on your slates just so you can get the bed cloth installed again on the slates....tight! Spray gluing the bed cloth on is a joke!!!!
 
Hey Glen, please pardon my ignorance, but can you elaborate on this please. I would have assumed (:embarrassed2:) that Diamond uses actual wood, not MDF to back the slates. Is that not true? How about the Gold Crowns (old ones vs. new ones)? Thanks. :D
 
Cuebacca said:
Hey Glen, please pardon my ignorance, but can you elaborate on this please. I would have assumed (:embarrassed2:) that Diamond uses actual wood, not MDF to back the slates. Is that not true? How about the Gold Crowns (old ones vs. new ones)? Thanks. :D
Click to expand...
Diamond as well as just about all other table manufactures have turned away from using real wood because it's quit a bit more costly than using particle board or MDF, especially if you add in the fall down waste. Particle board and MDF is more consistent in thickness then real wood as well, and requires no thickness sizing with a planer. BUT, MDF and particle board fall apart when it's stapled end grain, such as into the thickness of the material when it's used as a backer on slates. Then, when leather drop pockets are stapled or screwed into the surface of the wood under the slates, then pulled out and put back in over and over, the wood falls apart as well. Brunswick, Olhausen, Diamond and just about everyone else has followed suit to make the same changes to the backing of the slates for installing the bed cloths. It really don't matter with the older GC's either, sooner or later the wood backing on them tables as well are going to get chewed out to where they need to be replaced, or they're already that way, or they're already missing chunks of wood to the point that who ever is recovering them, they're spray gluing the cloth to hold it in place where the wood is missing. Spray gluing the cloth with ANY kind of spray glue will NOT hold the cloth as tight as the contact glue I use, in which case I can install the cloth tighter with my glue than anyone can using a staple gun, there's a big difference in that:D

I'm not blaming anyone in this industry for the switch to particle board or MDF, all I'm saying is it's not right, it only works for a short period of time before it needs to be replaced, and therefore it's wrong...today, when there's a better way to install the bed cloths, AND it's MUCH cheaper and more efficient than what is being done today with backed slate pool tables.
 
Interesting stuff. Thanks. :cool: What is your opinion of using steel or some kind of metal for the frame? Would that be practical and/or beneficial?
 
Cuebacca said:
Interesting stuff. Thanks. :cool: What is your opinion of using steel or some kind of metal for the frame? Would that be practical and/or beneficial?
Click to expand...

Gabriels tables use a one-piece steel subframe. Of course you can't staple into steel, so unless you want to try using a rivet gun presumably they still use a wood backing on the slate itself.

What about having a set of machine screws in the frame at set distances for cloth attachment points? In fact now I think about it if you designed it right you could use the screws to tighten the cloth when installing it.

Now where did I put that patent application?
 
AuntyDan said:
Gabriels tables use a one-piece steel subframe. Of course you can't staple into steel, so unless you want to try using a rivet gun presumably they still use a wood backing on the slate itself.

What about having a set of machine screws in the frame at set distances for cloth attachment points? In fact now I think about it if you designed it right you could use the screws to tighten the cloth when installing it.

Now where did I put that patent application?
Click to expand...
The frames on Gabriels are bolted together, 2 long frame rails and 4 short side to side frame rails. There is no wood backing on the slates, the wood backing is mounted on the frame rails, pockets cut out before the slates are mounted, and in most cases DON"T match the pocket cut on the slates. Steel is great for a frame, as long as SOMEONE else is packing it up the stairs:D and....you still have to level the slates on the steel frame to get it level...so what's the point of the use of the steel? Attachment points for the cloth?:D Not a chance of designing something to replace installing the bed cloth by hand.

Glen
 
Spot on

Glen is absolutely correct here.

It's not just more cost effective. It's not just gluing the felt down. It's the way Glen installs it!

I just had my table recovered by Glen. It had been previously installed by gluing the edge of the cloth, by another installer. Glen's method produces a far better playing area and more consistent bank!

Once enough mechanics are trained in this method, pool will be more enjoyable. I can't wait.

Ray
 
Hello Glen, Hey Ray,
Hopefully you'll be the one setting up my Pro Am Glen and I was wondering, since the top of the table comes assembled from the factory, what method do they use or will you be going as far as installing the cloth yourself? Just curious, thx, Rich Alexander
 
If Glen were to use the same gluing method as the previous installer used would the table play the same or better ?
 
Last edited:
Same

mechanic/player said:
If Glen were to use the same gluing method as the previous installer used would the table play the same or better ?
Click to expand...

The table would've played the same as is did before. Bad. Glen's system is very straight forward and easy to learn. I can see where it can be duplicated.

Ray
 
Confused

mechanic/player said:
With respect Bigtruck I disagree. That would mean that Glen was no better than the previous installer.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't follow your logic. You said "IF" Glen installed it the same way as the previous installer. "IF" he did, how could it be different?

He does not install it that way, so what is your point?

My point is...You CAN learn to do it RKC style. You don't have to but you're customers are missing out if you don't.

Ray
 
realkingcobra said:
A word to the wise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I'd take a second to mention that I feel at some point down the not to distant road, Diamond is going to take my advice and stop producing tables with slates that require wood backing in order to install the bed cloths. When this happens I think everyone is going to see other manufactures follow in Diamonds foot steps. I've said it for a long time, when manufactures back the slates with particle board or mdf, they may be cutting corners and costs today, but SOMEONE is going to PAY for that little costs cutting corner somewhere down the road!!!! I'm almost done with my pictorial and written directions for installing the bed cloths with my gluing system, so they'll be available shortly, backed up with the DVD showing the same process, I'm advising everyone to pay attention and learn it as soon as you can, because it may not be soon enough for the future if you wait to long

Glen, the "Realkingcobra"

PS. The only reason I mentioned this in the main forum is because YOU the buyer of the tables with particle board or MDF backing on the slates are the ones that are going to be paying that price down the road sooner or later if you own any pool tables with slates manufactured like this:D The particle board and MDF does NOT hold up over time. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to:D but you'll find out sooner or later, and when you do, you'll wish you had a mechanic that knew how to install the cloth with my system:D instead of paying someone to tear your table apart and charge you to install new backing on your slates just so you can get the bed cloth installed again on the slates....tight! Spray gluing the bed cloth on is a joke!!!!
Click to expand...
Good grief. I laughed the first time I saw particle board under a slate because I had recovered tables before. But diamonds and gold crowns with particle board is freaking insane! That is nothing to laugh about. I am stunned. I mean, how many times do they think you can recover them before they are useless?
 
Puttnutt24 said:
Hello Glen, Hey Ray,
Hopefully you'll be the one setting up my Pro Am Glen and I was wondering, since the top of the table comes assembled from the factory, what method do they use or will you be going as far as installing the cloth yourself? Just curious, thx, Rich Alexander
Click to expand...
The factory learned to glue the bed cloths on the slates from me, so it'll be fine.;)

Glen
 
mechanic/player said:
With respect Bigtruck I disagree. That would mean that Glen was no better than the previous installer.
Click to expand...
I would have to agree with you player, if I used the same method, I'd end up with the same results, I think Big Truck mis-understood your question;)

Glen
 
mechanic/player said:
My point is there is more to a good playing table than where the glue is applied. No?
Click to expand...
Well, it's not so much as in where the glue is applied when compared to the whole procedure, THAT is where the difference is really noticeable. Most mechanics feel they install the bed cloth pretty tight, but that's because they have really no way of knowing for sure how tight it really is. I can and do install the bed cloths the same way on every table I recover, and every table I recover ends up with the bed cloths playing the same way, because I know exactly how tight I make the cloth right down to the 1/16" of an inch tight. I would have to say that I really don't think most mechanics can stretch the cloth as tight as I do, and there's no spray glue made today that can hold the cloth as tight as I install it.

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
A word to the wise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I'd take a second to mention that I feel at some point down the not to distant road, Diamond is going to take my advice and stop producing tables with slates that require wood backing in order to install the bed cloths. When this happens I think everyone is going to see other manufactures follow in Diamonds foot steps. I've said it for a long time, when manufactures back the slates with particle board or mdf, they may be cutting corners and costs today, but SOMEONE is going to PAY for that little costs cutting corner somewhere down the road!!!! I'm almost done with my pictorial and written directions for installing the bed cloths with my gluing system, so they'll be available shortly, backed up with the DVD showing the same process, I'm advising everyone to pay attention and learn it as soon as you can, because it may not be soon enough for the future if you wait to long

Glen, the "Realkingcobra"

PS. The only reason I mentioned this in the main forum is because YOU the buyer of the tables with particle board or MDF backing on the slates are the ones that are going to be paying that price down the road sooner or later if you own any pool tables with slates manufactured like this:D The particle board and MDF does NOT hold up over time. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to:D but you'll find out sooner or later, and when you do, you'll wish you had a mechanic that knew how to install the cloth with my system:D instead of paying someone to tear your table apart and charge you to install new backing on your slates just so you can get the bed cloth installed again on the slates....tight! Spray gluing the bed cloth on is a joke!!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for your information.How much of a price reduction would you recommend for a used Diamond, Brunswick etc due to the inherent defect?Based on what you have described the depreciation of a used table and the eventual cost of repair is a hidden item. Specifically , what is the cost of a tear down to replace the worn out "mdf" backing on the slates.If I have understood your post correctly the associated costs of replacing the "mdf" backing on the slates should be considered when purchasing a used Table.
Brian
 
realkingcobra said:
I would have to agree with you player, if I used the same method, I'd end up with the same results, I think Big Truck mis-understood your question;)

Glen
Click to expand...

It was a tricky one!!!!! :banghead: :deadhorse: :banghead:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top