About to Captain a Team for the 1st Time in APA - Advice?

[GoldenDiamond]

I've been playing a little over a year in APA and know the rules/scoring pretty well, but I am now going to be taking over a team as a captain for a 9-ball team and wanted to pick anyone's brain that has any advice for a newbie captain. Strategies? Record Keeping? Etc?

Thanks in Advance!

 

[Allen Brown]

Do you know the members on your team and are they reliable?

 

[Maniac]

I've been playing a little over a year in APA and know the rules/scoring pretty well, but I am now going to be taking over a team as a captain for a 9-ball team and wanted to pick anyone's brain that has any advice for a newbie captain. Strategies? Record Keeping? Etc?

Thanks in Advance!

First off, forget the record-keeping. It will wear on you eventually and more times than not have no bearing on your weekly matches.

Keep it fun.

If your goal is Vegas then you are going to have some logistical problems keeping all of your players happy as the closer to the top of the standings your team is, the more you're going to want to shoot the players that got you there, making it less fun for the others. So...…

Keep it fun for everybody.

I see a lot of captains drive themselves nuts with "throwing/putting up" strategies. I have been captaining for many years and what has always worked for me is putting up a player that is within one skill-level as the one that the opposing captain puts up, whether it is up or down. It is no fun for either player when a SL2 is playing a SL8, making the whole night a big waste of time for both of those players and making their league night less fun.

Keep it fun.

Maniac (did I mention to keep it fun???)

 

[GoldenDiamond]

Do you know the members on your team and are they reliable?

Yes, it will be the same exact team I've been on since the beginning, just changing titles because my current capt. has too many other teams she is a capt of and wants a breather. . Everyone is super reliable and most times we have all 8 people there unless something comes up with someone.

First off, forget the record-keeping. It will wear on you eventually and more times than not have no bearing on your weekly matches.

Keep it fun.

If your goal is Vegas then you are going to have some logistical problems keeping all of your players happy as the closer to the top of the standings your team is, the more you're going to want to shoot the players that got you there, making it less fun for the others. So...…

Keep it fun for everybody.

I see a lot of captains drive themselves nuts with "throwing/putting up" strategies. I have been captaining for many years and what has always worked for me is putting up a player that is within one skill-level as the one that the opposing captain puts up, whether it is up or down. It is no fun for either player when a SL2 is playing a SL8, making the whole night a big waste of time for both of those players and making their league night less fun.

Keep it fun.

Maniac (did I mention to keep it fun???)

Yeah, i was kind of having that mindset going in. Keep it fun first and foremost. Get everyone involved and playing. What one of my other capt. does, which I was tossing around, is that if you won, you played for sure next week..if you lost, you are probably going to sit the next week. I don't know if i want to do anything like that for the first session, but it does seem like a good way to keep everyone playing and motivation to win.

 

[cuesblues]

*Watch your put-ups
*Teach your scorekeepers what a defensive shot is
*Covet your 2s and 3s.

 

[Maniac]

What one of my other capt. does, which I was tossing around, is that if you won, you played for sure next week..if you lost, you are probably going to sit the next week. I don't know if i want to do anything like that for the first session, but it does seem like a good way to keep everyone playing and motivation to win.

If I had done that, there was a person on my team that would have never played again for the session. :thumbup:

Maniac

 

[lorider]

Yes, it will be the same exact team I've been on since the beginning, just changing titles because my current capt. has too many other teams she is a capt of and wants a breather. . Everyone is super reliable and most times we have all 8 people there unless something comes up with someone.



Yeah, i was kind of having that mindset going in. Keep it fun first and foremost. Get everyone involved and playing. What one of my other capt. does, which I was tossing around, is that if you won, you played for sure next week..if you lost, you are probably going to sit the next week. I don't know if i want to do anything like that for the first session, but it does seem like a good way to keep everyone playing and motivation to win.

I have captained 3 teams a week for several years and there is no WA I am going to choose who plays this week based on a win / loss the previous week. There are just too many variables at play that determines whether you won or lost a particular match. You can have the best night ever and still lose. I can't see sitting a player that played his heart out and still lost.

Having 8 players and only 5 playing each night can be a headache. That's why I prefer double jeapordy where every one is going to play that ...every one at least once and 5 of them play twice and I rotate each week who plays twice.

You have already received a couple pieces of grew advice.....match up close to handicap when you can ...and have fun. I laugh and joke with most of my players. Notice I said most. some guys take this game way to serious.

This brings up my advice to you. Get to know your players real good. Not just on a personal level but what makes them tick ...as the saying goes ....when playing.

Study them at the table..find their strengths and weaknesses. Kicking...banking...cue ball control...shot selection...etc. Figure out how each player handles time outs called on them and handle each player according to how receptive they are to time outs. All the previous traits helps me determine just how good my player is for his handicap.

I classify players at each handicap ....weak...good ...or strong based on all of the above variables. I used to keep notes but that is a real pain . That goes for all of our opponents as well. I will throw a good 4 against a weak 5 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[mattb]

Run

Run, run away!

Seriously, there are a few things for the first few go rounds until you settle in.

1st, make everyone keep score. A good rule of thumb is if you just played, you keep score for the next match. The only exception is if you are or have a good player that gives time outs. Let that person help the lower level players instead of tying them up with score keeping.

2nd, learn your teams strengths and weakness. Not just their play side, but their mental side. Some want to go up first and set the pace. Some want to go up last and play better this way.

3rd, by all means have fun. Don’t take it too seriously. Ask the team what they think and keep them involved.

 

[lorider]

Run, run away!

Seriously, there are a few things for the first few go rounds until you settle in.

1st, make everyone keep score. A good rule of thumb is if you just played, you keep score for the next match. The only exception is if you are or have a good player that gives time outs. Let that person help the lower level players instead of tying them up with score keeping.

2nd, learn your teams strengths and weakness. Not just their play side, but their mental side. Some want to go up first and set the pace. Some want to go up last and play better this way.

3rd, by all means have fun. Don’t take it too seriously. Ask the team what they think and keep them involved.

I didn't want to even broach the subject of scorekeeping. Its a real pain getting some to do it properly...and legibly. And some I have to keep an eye on and loom over to see if they marked a defensive shot she I see a player make one. Some just cant seem to pay close attention to every shot and some cant seem to discern what a defensive shot actually is. The lackadaisical attitude is really prevalent in 8 ball where some just seem to not watch the table till its time to mark the end if an inning.

On a related note. Have amy of you ever heard of a certified scorekeeper? I just picked up a player from out of town who will start on my team tomorrow night and said he is a certified scorekeeper. I have never beard of that and when I mentioned it to my lo he said yea they have such a tho g and asked me if i wanted to take the test and be certified and I said heck yea.

 

[GoldenDiamond]

*Watch your put-ups
*Teach your scorekeepers what a defensive shot is
*Covet your 2s and 3s.

Regarding put-ups...what is your "strategy" with that? Say you win the coin toss, do you give them first up or do you usually take it? If it varies, what makes your decision change?

If I had done that, there was a person on my team that would have never played again for the session. :thumbup:

Maniac

I think i made it sound more dramatic that it really is. It wasn't like the same people would play every week and the "losers" would never play. It was more like if you lost, you were probably sitting the next week then back at it the following. Not guaranteed, but he would give priority to who won the week prior then decide from there. Again, not a black and white formula, just something to try to give motivation to get the W. It seemed to work pretty well for that team and everyone would obviously get their minimum 6 games. I guess just food for thought.

I have captained 3 teams a week for several years and there is no WA I am going to choose who plays this week based on a win / loss the previous week. There are just too many variables at play that determines whether you won or lost a particular match. You can have the best night ever and still lose. I can't see sitting a player that played his heart out and still lost.

Having 8 players and only 5 playing each night can be a headache. That's why I prefer double jeapordy where every one is going to play that ...every one at least once and 5 of them play twice and I rotate each week who plays twice.

You have already received a couple pieces of grew advice.....match up close to handicap when you can ...and have fun. I laugh and joke with most of my players. Notice I said most. some guys take this game way to serious.

This brings up my advice to you. Get to know your players real good. Not just on a personal level but what makes them tick ...as the saying goes ....when playing.

Study them at the table..find their strengths and weaknesses. Kicking...banking...cue ball control...shot selection...etc. Figure out how each player handles time outs called on them and handle each player according to how receptive they are to time outs. All the previous traits helps me determine just how good my player is for his handicap.

I classify players at each handicap ....weak...good ...or strong based on all of the above variables. I used to keep notes but that is a real pain . That goes for all of our opponents as well. I will throw a good 4 against a weak 5 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I do like this advice a lot. I know you said you'd never do the win/loss and i get it. I just had a night like that myself. Shot lights out but still lost. Totally get that. Is there another way you'd handle who plays besides SL and how many matches they have/need?

Run, run away!

Seriously, there are a few things for the first few go rounds until you settle in.

1st, make everyone keep score. A good rule of thumb is if you just played, you keep score for the next match. The only exception is if you are or have a good player that gives time outs. Let that person help the lower level players instead of tying them up with score keeping.

2nd, learn your teams strengths and weakness. Not just their play side, but their mental side. Some want to go up first and set the pace. Some want to go up last and play better this way.

3rd, by all means have fun. Don’t take it too seriously. Ask the team what they think and keep them involved.

Very good input. We have all been playing together for some time now, but i think it'd be a pretty good idea to get individual input and see what circumstances the players feel most comfortable with and try to accommodate as much as possible.

I didn't want to even broach the subject of scorekeeping. Its a real pain getting some to do it properly...and legibly. And some I have to keep an eye on and loom over to see if they marked a defensive shot she I see a player make one. Some just cant seem to pay close attention to every shot and some cant seem to discern what a defensive shot actually is. The lackadaisical attitude is really prevalent in 8 ball where some just seem to not watch the table till its time to mark the end if an inning.

On a related note. Have amy of you ever heard of a certified scorekeeper? I just picked up a player from out of town who will start on my team tomorrow night and said he is a certified scorekeeper. I have never beard of that and when I mentioned it to my lo he said yea they have such a tho g and asked me if i wanted to take the test and be certified and I said heck yea.

Luckily scorekeeping is not going to be an issue at all, but do like that idea of having anyone that just played keep score next. Gets everyone involved. I totally hear ya on 8 ball. People tend to zone out until they really need to put ink on paper. Luckily i'm going to be doing a 9 ball and it seems to automatically make you pay way more attention.

 

[lorider]

Well golden you asked me about how I handle matching up besides s/l and how many games a player needs.

What I am about to say has stirred a lil controversy when I posted it on here before but here goes .

First a disclaimer though that I am no expert concerning the apa equalizer system but it does not take a rocket scientist to tell when a person is at a point that they may go up in s/ l.

Your number one priority is to come out on top that night. In order to do so you need to win at least 3 out of the 5 matches played...number could vary depending on the score of each match.so you match up where you think you have a pretty good chance on a few of those. Example.....good 5 vs their weak 4 and maybe even vs a weak 3 if you need a bunch of points. If you have 3 players that are very good for their handicap you can continue matching up like that and stay pretty much in contention the whole session.

You don't have to rely on those same 3 players every week. Choose 3 more who you know can beat 3 on the other team the following week.

Here is the controversial part. Like I said...i keep a mental note of each player. If I have a guy who is a good 5 and has consistently beaten the 4's and some 3's with a weak 5 thrown in there once in a while in order for the team to come out on top every week I know he may be at the threshold of going up. so I throw him against players I know he cant beat for a few weeks and rely on a couple others to win easy matches.

Now some on here have said such things as that's unethical or handicap manipulation. Now its definitely not unethical and possibly a smidgeon of truth to handicap manipulation. My defense to those remarks are. There are no rules against you throwing who you want...when you want and why you want to . A long term benefit of throwing your player against some one he cant beat is it will make him a better player.
After all ....its said on here all the time ....to get better you have to play better players.

To better explain it.....i have 4-5's and 3-3's in 8 ball. If I really want to win that night I will throw all 4-5's and a 3. At least 2 of those 5's will play low handicaps if the other team has a 6 or better. If those same 5's play low handicaps for several weeks I will change it up to where they play high handicaps and put the other ones on easy wins . Keeps every one where they should be in my opinion because the one flaw I see in apa is that they do not take into account the level of your opponent in your wins.

A perfect example of that is one night I was off. I had a 5 who I knew was on the threshold of going up due to a lot of easy wins. I text him and told him to play the other teams 6. He had lost to a 6 the previous match by 16-4. He takes it upon himself to play the 2nd worse 3 in town and wins 20-0. Sure enough next week he is raised to a 6.

The next week he came in jumping up and down I am a 6...i am a 6. I told him...beating the crap out of a 3 dont make you a 6. I told him it was all those was matches I gave him in order for the team to stay on top is what did it. To prove my point I played him against a strong 6 that night and he lost 18-2. Played a strong 5 the next week and lost and then went back to a 5 where he belonged .

People can say I am wrong and was holding him back but facts are facts. When he played easy opponents he went up....when he played opponents that were at the same as him at his new level he went down to where I knew he belonged.

Didn't mean to make this post this long bit there is a lot to know in order to be a good captain of a competitive team.....without having anyone sandbag which I am strongly against .

 

[cuesblues]

Regarding put-ups...what is your "strategy" with that? Say you win the coin toss, do you give them first up or do you usually take it? If it varies, what makes your decision change?



I think i made it sound more dramatic that it really is. It wasn't like the same people would play every week and the "losers" would never play. It was more like if you lost, you were probably sitting the next week then back at it the following. Not guaranteed, but he would give priority to who won the week prior then decide from there. Again, not a black and white formula, just something to try to give motivation to get the W. It seemed to work pretty well for that team and everyone would obviously get their minimum 6 games. I guess just food for thought.



I do like this advice a lot. I know you said you'd never do the win/loss and i get it. I just had a night like that myself. Shot lights out but still lost. Totally get that. Is there another way you'd handle who plays besides SL and how many matches they have/need?



Very good input. We have all been playing together for some time now, but i think it'd be a pretty good idea to get individual input and see what circumstances the players feel most comfortable with and try to accommodate as much as possible.



Luckily scorekeeping is not going to be an issue at all, but do like that idea of having anyone that just played keep score next. Gets everyone involved. I totally hear ya on 8 ball. People tend to zone out until they really need to put ink on paper. Luckily i'm going to be doing a 9 ball and it seems to automatically make you pay way more attention.

For our putups we played it different in the big team tournament's vs. weekly league play.
The last team tournament we won the league operator told us we did the best job putting up players he has ever seen, but figured winning in 3 matches and that can't work for every situation.
Our weekly league was an inhouse league that had been together for over 15-years when I quit playing APA.
In that league we matched players up evenly as possible, so not much advice there, especially if teams in your league routinely "burn" their two's.
No matter what though, in the big team tournament's the putups are very important, and some people could go the entire weekend and not play.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

I have not been on/captained an APA team for about 15 years. However, one strategy that I used to use was: If you win the coin flip, be the first team to put up a player. What this does, is make other team put a player up first in the 4th round. If you're in the 4th round, the score is 2-1 and that means one team is on the hill and the other is in a do or die situation. Having the other team put up first in the 4th allows you to have a bit more control of who is playing in the 4th round (you're not putting up blind). Accordingly, by the process of elimination, who gets put up in the 4th round has an effect on the players available to play in the 5th if the match goes that far.

 

[Low500]

I think this from the book Dante's Inferno is applicable to getting in that league captain stuff.
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"

 

[GoldenDiamond]

Well golden you asked me about how I handle matching up besides s/l and how many games a player needs.

What I am about to say has stirred a lil controversy when I posted it on here before but here goes .

First a disclaimer though that I am no expert concerning the apa equalizer system but it does not take a rocket scientist to tell when a person is at a point that they may go up in s/ l.

Your number one priority is to come out on top that night. In order to do so you need to win at least 3 out of the 5 matches played...number could vary depending on the score of each match.so you match up where you think you have a pretty good chance on a few of those. Example.....good 5 vs their weak 4 and maybe even vs a weak 3 if you need a bunch of points. If you have 3 players that are very good for their handicap you can continue matching up like that and stay pretty much in contention the whole session.

You don't have to rely on those same 3 players every week. Choose 3 more who you know can beat 3 on the other team the following week.

Here is the controversial part. Like I said...i keep a mental note of each player. If I have a guy who is a good 5 and has consistently beaten the 4's and some 3's with a weak 5 thrown in there once in a while in order for the team to come out on top every week I know he may be at the threshold of going up. so I throw him against players I know he cant beat for a few weeks and rely on a couple others to win easy matches.

Now some on here have said such things as that's unethical or handicap manipulation. Now its definitely not unethical and possibly a smidgeon of truth to handicap manipulation. My defense to those remarks are. There are no rules against you throwing who you want...when you want and why you want to . A long term benefit of throwing your player against some one he cant beat is it will make him a better player.
After all ....its said on here all the time ....to get better you have to play better players.

To better explain it.....i have 4-5's and 3-3's in 8 ball. If I really want to win that night I will throw all 4-5's and a 3. At least 2 of those 5's will play low handicaps if the other team has a 6 or better. If those same 5's play low handicaps for several weeks I will change it up to where they play high handicaps and put the other ones on easy wins . Keeps every one where they should be in my opinion because the one flaw I see in apa is that they do not take into account the level of your opponent in your wins.

A perfect example of that is one night I was off. I had a 5 who I knew was on the threshold of going up due to a lot of easy wins. I text him and told him to play the other teams 6. He had lost to a 6 the previous match by 16-4. He takes it upon himself to play the 2nd worse 3 in town and wins 20-0. Sure enough next week he is raised to a 6.

The next week he came in jumping up and down I am a 6...i am a 6. I told him...beating the crap out of a 3 dont make you a 6. I told him it was all those was matches I gave him in order for the team to stay on top is what did it. To prove my point I played him against a strong 6 that night and he lost 18-2. Played a strong 5 the next week and lost and then went back to a 5 where he belonged .

People can say I am wrong and was holding him back but facts are facts. When he played easy opponents he went up....when he played opponents that were at the same as him at his new level he went down to where I knew he belonged.

Didn't mean to make this post this long bit there is a lot to know in order to be a good captain of a competitive team.....without having anyone sandbag which I am strongly against .

Thank you for the input! I can see how it's controversial, but i definitely see where you're coming from. Thanks again!

I have not been on/captained an APA team for about 15 years. However, one strategy that I used to use was: If you win the coin flip, be the first team to put up a player. What this does, is make other team put a player up first in the 4th round. If you're in the 4th round, the score is 2-1 and that means one team is on the hill and the other is in a do or die situation. Having the other team put up first in the 4th allows you to have a bit more control of who is playing in the 4th round (you're not putting up blind). Accordingly, by the process of elimination, who gets put up in the 4th round has an effect on the players available to play in the 5th if the match goes that far.

Thanks! That does make sense to get leverage later on in the night! Did you typically do this every time, or just when you feel like the team you were playing was going to be a close match?

I think this from the book Dante's Inferno is applicable to getting in that league captain stuff.
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"

:rotflmao:

​

 

[Celophanewrap]

Advice? Be honest with yourself. Be sure your house is order before looking to closely
at someone else's.

I've been an APA player for, oh.... lets say a little bit and I've gone through a lot of these
threads, you know - the APA bash-o-holic threads, and I wonder about all the negative
experiences, the whining and complaining and a couple of things occur to me as I was
reading, if you start in the APA you'll never figure it out, but as soon switch to or play in
another league, USPL, BCA, Valley or whatever you will suddenly know what a defensive
shot is. Apparently in the APA it's some big secret and no one is talking, but in those
other leagues everyone is upstanding and honest and knows without hesitation what a
defensive shot is. But I think I've discover the problem - it seems that in The APA
everybody is so completely concerned with what the other guy is doing or writing that
they don't have time to concern themselves with what a defensive shot it or how to keep
score accurately so inevitably the APA suffers and sandbaggers and other kinds of cheaters run wild.

More advice? Expect your players to give their best every time they play. Realize that
their best will differ from night to night.
Pick your match-ups smart and strategically but understand that you won't win 'em all.
Keep score honestly and teach and expect your players to keep score honestly as well,
worry about your own house, do your best and let the other teams worry about themselves.
You can only have a match with what given to you on both sides of the score sheet, no one's
skill level will change magically before your eyes, complaining about it is an exercise in futility
just do your best and let the cream rise to the top.
Oh, one more - Be the cream

 

[Maniac]

One more thing that needs to be addressed. Do not, in defense of one of your players that just had his/her head handed to them, accuse the winning player of being rated to low and/or sandbagging. Definitely be very, VERY careful about reporting a lopsided match to your LO.

Let me tell you why I say this. First, the LO has probably had all the skill-level complaining he can possibly stand, and it probably makes a LO weary and unresponsive towards the problem.

Secondly...well, let me just give you an example of why you should be careful of accusations. Last Monday night, APA 8-ball, I threw a SL5 and the opposing captain threw a SL6. My 5 beat their 6 four games to one and immediately after the match I hear the losing player and his captain telling my 5 that he ought to be a SL7. Yes, he shot very well that night and certainly appeared to be better than a SL5...but that happens. What that losing player and his couch did NOT know is that my SL% had only won about 20% of his matches during the session and that he on most other nights had been shooting like crap.

Just sayin'....be careful of what you say/report without knowing ALL the facts. No point of getting yours or your opponents players all stirred up over nothing.

And....have fun (have I already said that?).

Maniac

 

[GoldenDiamond]

Advice? Be honest with yourself. Be sure your house is order before looking to closely
at someone else's.

I've been an APA player for, oh.... lets say a little bit and I've gone through a lot of these
threads, you know - the APA bash-o-holic threads, and I wonder about all the negative
experiences, the whining and complaining and a couple of things occur to me as I was
reading, if you start in the APA you'll never figure it out, but as soon switch to or play in
another league, USPL, BCA, Valley or whatever you will suddenly know what a defensive
shot is. Apparently in the APA it's some big secret and no one is talking, but in those
other leagues everyone is upstanding and honest and knows without hesitation what a
defensive shot is. But I think I've discover the problem - it seems that in The APA
everybody is so completely concerned with what the other guy is doing or writing that
they don't have time to concern themselves with what a defensive shot it or how to keep
score accurately so inevitably the APA suffers and sandbaggers and other kinds of cheaters run wild.

More advice? Expect your players to give their best every time they play. Realize that
their best will differ from night to night.
Pick your match-ups smart and strategically but understand that you won't win 'em all.
Keep score honestly and teach and expect your players to keep score honestly as well,
worry about your own house, do your best and let the other teams worry about themselves.
You can only have a match with what given to you on both sides of the score sheet, no one's
skill level will change magically before your eyes, complaining about it is an exercise in futility
just do your best and let the cream rise to the top.
Oh, one more - Be the cream

Very wise words. As far as APA goes, it was the only option in my area at the time, but BCA is trying to make a start in the area. Definitely eyeballing it to just get some different perspective and different players. :thumbup2:

One more thing that needs to be addressed. Do not, in defense of one of your players that just had his/her head handed to them, accuse the winning player of being rated to low and/or sandbagging. Definitely be very, VERY careful about reporting a lopsided match to your LO.

Let me tell you why I say this. First, the LO has probably had all the skill-level complaining he can possibly stand, and it probably makes a LO weary and unresponsive towards the problem.

Secondly...well, let me just give you an example of why you should be careful of accusations. Last Monday night, APA 8-ball, I threw a SL5 and the opposing captain threw a SL6. My 5 beat their 6 four games to one and immediately after the match I hear the losing player and his captain telling my 5 that he ought to be a SL7. Yes, he shot very well that night and certainly appeared to be better than a SL5...but that happens. What that losing player and his couch did NOT know is that my SL% had only won about 20% of his matches during the session and that he on most other nights had been shooting like crap.

Just sayin'....be careful of what you say/report without knowing ALL the facts. No point of getting yours or your opponents players all stirred up over nothing.

And....have fun (have I already said that?).

Maniac

Most definitely. I don't know how many times i've heard that myself. I have come to the realization that until you're a SL9...people are always going to complain that you should be higher SL, period...LOL

 

[lorider]

Great post celo but to be frank this thread is quite tame compared fo most threads with apa in the title.

I did not mention much on sandbagging except to say I am totally against it.

It goes on in all leagues...at least the ones I have played in. I think you would be surprised to know that so far its more prevalent in usapl around here than it is in apa. You think I am exaggerating? There are way less teams in usapl than in apa around here and I know of more sandbaggers in usapl than I do in apa.

I am a 5/6 in apa and rated a 461.

A 7/8 I know is rated at 434
A 7/9 is rated at 446
Forgot what another 7/9 is rated at but he only spots me 4 points in usapl.
A 5/6 like me is rated at 410.

I could go on but these examples are from only 8 total teams in usapl here.

Just for comparisons sake concerning those 7 's I mentioned above. There is a 7/8 rated at 590. A couple of other 7/9's are rated 605 and 610. Tell me there ain't some serious sandbagging going on here. At less apa makes a concerted effort to curb sandbagging by requiring you to mark all innings and safties etc.
I dont know of that many sandbaggers in apa out of over 250 teams in our area.

 

[danquixote]

Well Buddy....I think you're inviting a major headache into your life, but if it is your way of giving back....so be it. My advice would be to drink heavily at least 1 hour prior to game time....LOL