Action knocking....

Aaron_S said:
Someone who lets their buddies walk into traps with known hustlers will soon run out of buddies. Why anyone would feel that their obligation to not knock a hustler's action is stronger than their obligation to not let their friend walk into a trap is beyond me. Who needs enemies when you have friends like that? :confused:

JMHO,

Aaron
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On the flip side of it, what sort of person would need such heavy guidance? Years back, I was hanging in this room in Queens when Eugene Staliv walked in. He was in town for only a few hours because of a layover on his way to the US Open. He walked into the poolroom (Spin City) and asked if anyone wanted to play for $100 per set. In only minutes, I could see how amazing this guy was and yet, everybody lined up to play him. He made something like $700 before he had to go catch his flight. My point is, each person that stepped up to play him either knew he was really good or knew they didn't know anything. They're not forced to play and can easily just say no to the offer.

I mean, I'm certain there are situations that are more extreme than this that might change my opinion but my point is, you're responsible for your own actions not your friends.
 
easy-e said:
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?
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I wish you hadn't included Josh's name in this thread but it is already done and I will weigh in anyway. First off, I like Josh's moxy. He may be a little persistent but even that is OK. He needs to add those smiley faces when he is joking. :)

My own standards about knocking vary but essentially it is this:

Knocking someone's action (which is done on this forum with regularity by experienced players and novices alike) for no reason other than to "out" the other player's speed is wrong.

Knocking someone's action because a stranger (to him but not you) is trying to get in your friend's pocket with a game that is obviously lop-sided is COOL. If your friend didn't know who or what he was up against, you have an obligation as a friend to let them know they have a lop-sided game. You wouldn't be a friend if you didn't tell him. That being said, you should tell him this discreetly.

Wholesale knocking is wrong, especially if you like to see road players come through your town. Protect your friends if you see a road player trying to steal their cash but if he is getting down with an acquaintance or another stranger, keep quiet and enjoy the dance.

If you don't like gambling or road players, inform the whole pool hall and all adjoining counties. :D

I don't enjoy a heist and will even tell an acquaintance how a player plays if they ask and it is gong to be a heist.

If a road player is giving decent games/spots, I will be very reluctant to knock his action.

On this forum, just recently, Wayne, a well known player answered another poster's request for opinions about the level of play of myself and others. While he is a player, he didn't hesitate to provide Crawfish with his opinion about the level of my play and Josh. While he is wrong about the level of my play for sure, it doesn't help matchups to occur if people are constantly telling other people how everyone should play.

A local pool hall lost all of their players because the owners decided to make sure that EVERY game was a perfect matchup where no one would win, except THE HOUSE. That is a perfect plan for eliminating action from your pool room.

If I didn't have the hook set so deep in the GINGERBREAD MAN'S jaw, Wayne's post would have sent him scurrying even further away. :D :D

That's me, but it is up to each man to decide what is best for him.

JoeyA
 
Neil said:
I'm pretty much a private person. That being said, you posters that feel it's a good thing to knock action- do you also tell your friends where to get a mortgage, or insurance, or what kind of car to buy, or any other way that they should spend their money? If not, why do it in the poolroom.

If the guy is inexperienced, let him learn. He will remember it more. Odds are he isn't betting much if he's inexperienced. If he is, he's either very, very rich, or very stupid. If the latter, get him out of the pool halls. He won't learn.

Anytime two people match up, they both think they have the best of it and one is wrong, or one is trying to learn something. Or will learn something.

If he's a real good friend, and you know he has the worst of it by far, all you have to do is look him in the eye and ask him if he's sure. If the game has started, sit down and shut-up until he looks like he might play another set. Then ask him if he's sure. If that doesn't get him thinking, take him out back after it's over and smack him up the side of the head to wake him up.

But, whatever way you tell him, keep it private. Don't be a jerk and go announcing it to the whole room to try and make it look like you know something they don't. There's probably someone in the room that might play the guy that you would love to see lose. Don't kill that action too.
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I'd say this shows perfect tact.
 
Neil said:
you posters that feel it's a good thing to knock action- do you also tell your friends where to get a mortgage, or insurance, or what kind of car to buy, or any other way that they should spend their money? If not, why do it in the poolroom.

If the guy is inexperienced, let him learn.

...

Don't be a jerk and go announcing it to the whole room to try and make it look like you know something they don't. There's probably someone in the room that might play the guy that you would love to see lose. Don't kill that action too.
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This may be the best post I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Usually my friends ask me if I would like half of their action, they can usually tell whether they should play by my reaction.

In this light, has anyone here seen a friend make a huge mistake in a relationship, school, job, or life in general. It's all part of learning.
 
iba7467 said:
This may be the best post I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Usually my friends ask me if I would like half of their action, they can usually tell whether they should play by my reaction.

In this light, has anyone here seen a friend make a huge mistake in a relationship, school, job, or life in general. It's all part of learning.
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Many may disagree, but I would help them avoid any huge mistake.....in life or in pool.
 
friends give each other advice in the pool room. Close friends not only give advice but also look out to make sure their close friend is not screwing themselves, be it in the pool room or outside. Lets face it, real friends...people you talk to every day, have known for decades and you know have your back if you need them are not easy to find. Hell, I can count two in 41 years of my life. For those two, HELL YEAH im knocking a bad game if I see them involved in it. I may not yell out my info across the room but I will see to it they go into things with their eyes open and with all the available knowledge we have between us.

That said, most of the times I have ever said to my best friend.."Bad Game" he has said ehh fek it im doing it anyways. Hes a hammerhead when he gets to drinking and cant be convinced usually to change any course he has his mind set on.
 
Knocking

Neil said:
I'm pretty much a private person. That being said, you posters that feel it's a good thing to knock action- do you also tell your friends where to get a mortgage, or insurance, or what kind of car to buy, or any other way that they should spend their money? If not, why do it in the poolroom.

If the guy is inexperienced, let him learn. He will remember it more. Odds are he isn't betting much if he's inexperienced. If he is, he's either very, very rich, or very stupid. If the latter, get him out of the pool halls. He won't learn.

Anytime two people match up, they both think they have the best of it and one is wrong, or one is trying to learn something. Or will learn something.

If he's a real good friend, and you know he has the worst of it by far, all you have to do is look him in the eye and ask him if he's sure. If the game has started, sit down and shut-up until he looks like he might play another set. Then ask him if he's sure. If that doesn't get him thinking, take him out back after it's over and smack him up the side of the head to wake him up.

But, whatever way you tell him, keep it private. Don't be a jerk and go announcing it to the whole room to try and make it look like you know something they don't. There's probably someone in the room that might play the guy that you would love to see lose. Don't kill that action too.
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This is the right way to do it. The reason action is dead so to speak across the country is because of this subject. If you agree to play someone then it's none of my business. You cannot teach a person to gamble they have to experience it. I don't keep idiots as friends that bet what they can't afford.
 
Crazy

There is no way I would let any of my friends get hustled. What kind of friend is that? I would also not let my friends buy a fake Rolex or let someone pick-pocket them. WTF.
 
Poolfiend said:
There is no way I would let any of my friends get hustled. What kind of friend is that? I would also not let my friends buy a fake Rolex or let someone pick-pocket them. WTF.
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But how would they learn?!?!?!:rolleyes:
 
storke said:
This is the right way to do it. The reason action is dead so to speak across the country is because of this subject. If you agree to play someone then it's none of my business. You cannot teach a person to gamble they have to experience it. I don't keep idiots as friends that bet what they can't afford.
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Thank you!!!!!!!!


I learned the old fashioned way and i am way ahead overall because of it.

I also think some poster's are using the word "friend" wrong. think about what a friend really is
 
Okay, how about the opposite scenario?

I walked into Broadway Billiards one night with a friend of mine who is a solid A player. A regular at the room, someone I was familiar with, asked my friend for a game figuring I was tougher action (which is pretty accurate). They both ask me what the right game was and I said, "You two play about even." I honestly was only certain of my friend's speed and hadn't seen this Broadway regular in a couple years but back then, he played high B to low A speed.

The result was my friend played very well and this regular played a little under the speed I remember and my friend wins. The regular immediately yells at me that I set him up. What do you guys think? Now, I honestly thought it would be close but that's not the issue. Do I have an obligation to this person to match him up as evenly as possible with my friend? I know in this scenario, it's impossible since I hadn't seen the regular recently but evenso, do you think you are obligated to tell the truth?
 
easy-e said:
But how would they learn?!?!?!:rolleyes:
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Oh that's right, I forgot. Losing money to a better player that is hiding their speed while your friend sits silently watching the whole thing go down is a valuable lesson. If that happened to me I would certainly learn something from it.

I realize we all come from different backgrounds and have different perspectives. Some people grow up without a lot of friends watching out for them and have to learn things the hard way. Maybe that is where the other side of this argument stems from. However, I have one friend that grew up in a pool hall. He literally slept there most nights and I know he learned most of things he knows today the hard way. I also know that even though we are not the best of friends, he would not let me walk into a game where he knew I would get robbed.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Okay, how about the opposite scenario?

I walked into Broadway Billiards one night with a friend of mine who is a solid A player. A regular at the room, someone I was familiar with, asked my friend for a game figuring I was tougher action (which is pretty accurate). They both ask me what the right game was and I said, "You two play about even." I honestly was only certain of my friend's speed and hadn't seen this Broadway regular in a couple years but back then, he played high B to low A speed.

The result was my friend played very well and this regular played a little under the speed I remember and my friend wins. The regular immediately yells at me that I set him up. What do you guys think? Now, I honestly thought it would be close but that's not the issue. Do I have an obligation to this person to match him up as evenly as possible with my friend? I know in this scenario, it's impossible since I hadn't seen the regular recently but evenso, do you think you are obligated to tell the truth?
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I guess that depends on your opinion of whether hustling is right or wrong. Lying certainly makes you part of the hustle.
 
Poolfiend said:
I guess that depends on your opinion of whether hustling is right or wrong. Lying certainly makes you part of the hustle.
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I mean, in my actual scenario, i didn't lie. If someone asks for my assistance for making a game, I try to be fair about it usually resorting to the normal handicaps given in our local tournaments. For example, I would say, "Okay, my buddy here is an A and you're a C. The right game is 4 on 9."

I'm just curious if people are trying to be fair or loyal. Both are honorable attributes but sometimes you have to be one or the other.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I mean, in my actual scenario, i didn't lie. If someone asks for my assistance for making a game, I try to be fair about it usually resorting to the normal handicaps given in our local tournaments. For example, I would say, "Okay, my buddy here is an A and you're a C. The right game is 4 on 9."

I'm just curious if people are trying to be fair or loyal. Both are honorable attributes but sometimes you have to be one or the other.
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Fair. I could care less if my friend loses money gambling, so long as he got a fair game.
 
easy-e said:
Fair. I could care less if my friend loses money gambling, so long as he got a fair game.
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Then in my opinion, if you're willing to honestly set your friend up in a fair game with a stranger, you should be allowed a degree of flexibility when he is the underdog in an unfair game.
 
This is a great subject that unfortunately will never have one correct answer. People classify friends in various ways. People also treat and protect friends in different ways too.

I have been playing pool for over 20yrs, and have seen many road and professional players. Now I own this information from both spectating and playing alot of these players. This information is mine to do with how I decide to use it. Do I knock a player or save a friend?


For starters, I personally only classify a few people as friends. These friends are people who watch my back, help me when needed, socialize with and know some or most of my life history. This is what i classify as a friend. I have tons of pool playing buddies and aquaintances. Are these buddies friends? Yes and no. Its a different level of friendship.

Now as for hustling of my friends or aquaintances I do not stand for or allow it to happen. Hustlers alway want the nutz before ever breaking the first rack. Gamblers want the game to be as close as a coin flip as possible. Will I interfere for a gambling match? NO Will I interfere for a hustling match? YES

My friendships are valuable commodities that will never be compromised by any person.
 
i'm gonna knock some action: Dont play SVB heads-up. I heard he is hitting them pretty good right now, sorry Shane.
 
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