Action knocking....

[Poolfiend]

I mean, in my actual scenario, i didn't lie. If someone asks for my assistance for making a game, I try to be fair about it usually resorting to the normal handicaps given in our local tournaments. For example, I would say, "Okay, my buddy here is an A and you're a C. The right game is 4 on 9."

I'm just curious if people are trying to be fair or loyal. Both are honorable attributes but sometimes you have to be one or the other.

Oh Yeah, I understand that in your original scenario you measured both player's ability as closely as you could with the information you had. If you did intentionally lie about you friend's speed then that would make you part of a hustle - don't you think?

I think you can be both fair and loyal to your friend. I agree with Easy's post about being fair. Of course I don't discourage my friends from gambling and sometimes when you gamble you lose. I will just do my part to make sure they know everything I do about the other player.

 

[Poolfiend]

This is a great subject that unfortunately will never have one correct answer. People classify friends in various ways. People also treat and protect friends in different ways too.

I have been playing pool for over 20yrs, and have seen many road and professional players. Now I own this information from both spectating and playing alot of these players. This information is mine to do with how I decide to use it. Do I knock a player or save a friend?


For starters, I personally only classify a few people as friends. These friends are people who watch my back, help me when needed, socialize with and know some or most of my life history. This is what i classify as a friend. I have tons of pool playing buddies and aquaintances. Are these buddies friends? Yes and no. Its a different level of friendship.

Now as for hustling of my friends or aquaintances I do not stand for or allow it to happen. Hustlers alway want the nutz before ever breaking the first rack. Gamblers want the game to be as close as a coin flip as possible. Will I interfere for a gambling match? NO Will I interfere for a hustling match? YES

My friendships are valuable commodities that will never be compromised by any person.

Well said. I agree 100%. Not that anyone asked.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Then in my opinion, if you're willing to honestly set your friend up in a fair game with a stranger, you should be allowed a degree of flexibility when he is the underdog in an unfair game.

"Knocking" is a subjective term. It is an unwritten code among pool players,
(at least those in the know)that you keep your mouth shut. However most knocking is done by "railbirds" who have zero integrity. If I had to hazard a guess I would say railbirds have cost pool players at least a trillion dollars.
I have, at times, been guilty of knocking if I found a close friend in jeopardy of losing big bucks.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Oh Yeah, I understand that in your original scenario you measured both player's ability as closely as you could with the information you had. If you did intentionally lie about you friend's speed then that would make you part of a hustle - don't you think?

I think you can be both fair and loyal to your friend. I agree with Easy's post about being fair. Of course I don't discourage my friends from gambling and sometimes when you gamble you lose. I will just do my part to make sure they know everything I do about the other player.

I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

 

[Poolfiend]

Nice

I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

Both excellent questions. Scenario #2 is easy for me. I wait till the set is over and then call my friend over for a quick chat. At least that way he can go back to Mike and try to get a fair spot.

Scenario #1 made me think a little, but I would do the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't step in and my friend later found out he would say, Why the Fcuk didn't you tell me that was Mike Sigel.

Although my answers support my previous posts, your questions made it easier for me to envision scenario's where someone might sit back and not say anything. You would have to know your friend well enough to to know that maybe they wouldn't want you to say anything to them.

I apologize for my previous posts that had an exasperated tone directed towards those that didn't share my opinion.

 

[longhair]

To me, there is an important distinction to be made between a match-up where one player has the best of it and a match-up where there is hustling going on.

In the first case, where the match looks uneven to me, I would say something if the players don't know each other and my friend looks likely to lose enough money to matter to him while finding out what's going on.

In the second case, where a player is laying down to fool the other guy and take his money, the bar is lower for me to speak up. Lying about your speed in order to make a bet you can't lose is stealing, and if I'm sure that is what is going on I feel obligated to interfere if I can. It is not necessary for the victim to be my friend.

I'm glad to see that almost no one here is advocating that it is never OK to speak up. We might have different standards for when to act, but we mostly agree that at least sometimes it is right to act.

That said, how much actual hustling is going on these days? I know that players try to hide their speed, but everyone I know who plays well enough to consider gambling (and many who don't) are very aware that stalling is likely, and are cautious with strangers because of it.

Jude,
I liked your story about Stalev, and I agree that anyone there had the same information that you had, and there was no reason to try to stop anyone from doing what they want. I wonder if you would feel the same way if a player that speed (that you knew) came into that room lying about who he was, lost $10 to a chump while playing badly, and then wanted action for $100 a game (or $1000, or whatever seems like a lot of money to you; $100 per game is lot of money to me). If it looked like you were the only one in the know, would you let someone be the hustler's fool?

 

[Snap9]

answer

I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

Is this a friend or an aquaintance?

If an aquaintance do you involve yourself in either scenario? NO


if a friend that you classify as a friend?] Scenario 1 is Gambling and no involvement necessary.Scenario 2 is hustling and the answer is YES

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
I liked your story about Stalev, and I agree that anyone there had the same information that you had, and there was no reason to try to stop anyone from doing what they want. I wonder if you would feel the same way if a player that speed (that you knew) came into that room lying about who he was, lost $10 to a chump while playing badly, and then wanted action for $100 a game (or $1000, or whatever seems like a lot of money to you; $100 per game is lot of money to me). If it looked like you were the only one in the know, would you let someone be the hustler's fool?

Yeah, I sat there and watched in awe. He must've been a teenager at the time and he ripped everyone a new one. There was no hustle and I saw no reason to volunteer my opinion. Basically, he was saying, "Step up to get your ass whooped". The way he buzzed through racks, it looked like he hadn't missed a ball in his life.

 

[longhair]

I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

this came up while I was typing. Jude, you know how to cut an issue into the right peices. Here, I agree with Snap9. The first scenario doesn't require any action from me, although I might say something because Sigel is famous, rather than because he has the best of it. The second scenario is the kind of stealing that I was trying to talk about in my previous, long winded post.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Is this a friend or an aquaintance?

If an aquaintance do you involve yourself in either scenario? NO


if a friend that you classify as a friend?] Scenario 1 is Gambling and no involvement necessary.Scenario 2 is hustling and the answer is YES

Okay but how would you go about involving yourself in Scenario 2?

 

[longhair]

Okay but how would you go about involving yourself in Scenario 2?

How about asking Sigel for an autograph?

Seriously, that should be done quietly, especially since you walked in on a game in progress and you don't know what was said to get this started.

 

[trustyrusty]

I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

I'd probably let both go - unless he's running to the ATM to get more cash (cuz, he KNOWS he can beat this guy). Scenario #2 is GREAT - that story would just be too fun to tell when other buddies are around, so I couldn't stop that one. Now, this is all assuming that my buddy knows when to say uncle. If the hustler (in this case Sigel) is doing his job, and stringing him along, and my buddy can't see the big picture...I dunno. I might hafta say something when he gets to a point that would be very bad for him financially...

Good thread - to all

 

[Aaron_S]

On the flip side of it, what sort of person would need such heavy guidance? Years back, I was hanging in this room in Queens when Eugene Staliv walked in. He was in town for only a few hours because of a layover on his way to the US Open. He walked into the poolroom (Spin City) and asked if anyone wanted to play for $100 per set. In only minutes, I could see how amazing this guy was and yet, everybody lined up to play him. He made something like $700 before he had to go catch his flight. My point is, each person that stepped up to play him either knew he was really good or knew they didn't know anything. They're not forced to play and can easily just say no to the offer.

I mean, I'm certain there are situations that are more extreme than this that might change my opinion but my point is, you're responsible for your own actions not your friends.

I agree that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions, but I thought the initial question was about an inexperienced player who is being targeted by a hustler. If not, then I must have misread the initial post, but if the situation is as I described it, then I really don't see any similarities between that scenario and the one you described. Stalev wasn't hiding his speed, right? So the people who were playing him at least had some idea of what they were getting into. The situation I'm thinking of is more akin to not stopping your friend from walking in front of a bus that he neither sees nor hears. Sure, your friend might learn a lesson from the experience, but it's a lesson that they could have just as easily learned from afar.... and with a bit less pain.

As always, JMHO,

Aaron

 

[yobagua]

Most of the people that I have a close relationship with, and in a pool hall you can count them on one hand, can usually judge a players speed after a couple of games. Like Kid Delicious came into our room and no one knew him but me and another pool detective. I let my friend play him for a couple of games at $25 a game after 2 games my buddy pulled up and said hey man I cant beat you. Im not even in your league. They had a laugh. My buddy has a good story to tell his kids and learned a good lesson. For $50 bucks I was not going to get involved in it. Now if someone of Kids speed humped it up to something serious like 1K a set I would step in to my very good friend and say you got to know all the facts here. Unless my friend has oodles of $$$$ then he is on his own. He didnt get all that cash for being a dummy unless he inherited it and then he is a dummy if he wants to blow it. But you know if someone wants to play for that kind of cash my friend better send out some of his own detectives and get the line on this guy cause this guy is serious. Horse people do that. They got a sheet for that.
What irks me most is these railbirds who will set a guy up with a bad game. Saying oh this guy cant play, you could give him the 8. Or this guy hardly plays one pocket. You could give him 9/7. This weasel is just sucking up to the better player or is in on the action himself. I hate this type of person and the ones that sets up the guys from his own room with road players. THis is the most despicable type of pool rat. DO they think no one else knows what they are in on. To do that to your own crowd is the worse.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I agree that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions, but I thought the initial question was about an inexperienced player who is being targeted by a hustler. If not, then I must have misread the initial post, but if the situation is as I described it, then I really don't see any similarities between that scenario and the one you described. Stalev wasn't hiding his speed, right? So the people who were playing him at least had some idea of what they were getting into. The situation I'm thinking of is more akin to not stopping your friend from walking in front of a bus that he neither sees nor hears. Sure, your friend might learn a lesson from the experience, but it's a lesson that they could have just as easily learned from afar.... and with a bit less pain.

As always, JMHO,

Aaron

Yeah but then I thought about it and it's not really "Stalev" we're guarding against. We're talking about getted robbed unfairly and I think it's important to discuss very specific scenarios. There are times you knock action and there are times you don't. Sometimes, you shouldn't say a word even if it's your own mother playing. Sometimes you SHOULD say something even if you don't really like the guy.

 

[Aaron_S]

Yeah but then I thought about it and it's not really "Stalev" we're guarding against. We're talking about getted robbed unfairly and I think it's important to discuss very specific scenarios. There are times you knock action and there are times you don't. Sometimes, you shouldn't say a word even if it's your own mother playing. Sometimes you SHOULD say something even if you don't really like the guy.

Agreed, each situation requires it's own analysis. If a friend is truly unwitting, and about to be taken advantage of, then I would intervene on their part; otherwise, they, like the rest of us, will simply have to deal with the consequences of their decisions. You can't always count on a guardian angel to pull you back just before you step into the lion pit.

Good rolls,

Aaron

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Most of the people that I have a close relationship with, and in a pool hall you can count them on one hand, can usually judge a players speed after a couple of games. Like Kid Delicious came into our room and no one knew him but me and another pool detective. I let my friend play him for a couple of games at $25 a game after 2 games my buddy pulled up and said hey man I cant beat you. Im not even in your league. They had a laugh. My buddy has a good story to tell his kids and learned a good lesson. For $50 bucks I was not going to get involved in it. Now if someone of Kids speed humped it up to something serious like 1K a set I would step in to my very good friend and say you got to know all the facts here. Unless my friend has oodles of $$$$ then he is on his own. He didnt get all that cash for being a dummy unless he inherited it and then he is a dummy if he wants to blow it. But you know if someone wants to play for that kind of cash my friend better send out some of his own detectives and get the line on this guy cause this guy is serious. Horse people do that. They got a sheet for that.
What irks me most is these railbirds who will set a guy up with a bad game. Saying oh this guy cant play, you could give him the 8. Or this guy hardly plays one pocket. You could give him 9/7. This weasel is just sucking up to the better player or is in on the action himself. I hate this type of person and the ones that sets up the guys from his own room with road players. THis is the most despicable type of pool rat. DO they think no one else knows what they are in on. To do that to your own crowd is the worse.

This is the type of room I grew up playing in. Chelsea Billiards was notorious for such things. Whenever there was a game to be made you had to question the source of information, whether or not he has a vested interest in the outcome. "Oh, Joey can't give you that kind of weight! You play like a champion! Yeah, you should only get the 7 ball. Okay, I've got $100 on Joey, any takers?"

Such moves got especially annoying during weekly tournaments where handicaps often determined the winner and the overall purse could easily exceed 8k in calcutta money.

 

[Poolfiend]

Agreed, each situation requires it's own analysis. If a friend is truly unwitting, and about to be taken advantage of, then I would intervene on their part; otherwise, they, like the rest of us, will simply have to deal with the consequences of their decisions. You can't always count on a guardian angel to pull you back just before you step into the lion pit.

Good rolls,

Aaron

You're right, you can't always count on someone to save you and sometimes your friends will have to learn the hard way, but if you are able to save them from time to time and know they would appreciate it . . . isn't that what friends are for?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Oh and regarding my two Mike Sigel scenarios, I could see myself doing a few things in both cases. In the first, I could see not doing anything and I could see casually mentioning something to him between sets like, "So you're playing World Class Pros now, huh?"

In the second scenario, I'd intervene but how is the question. I could see saying something casually between sets and I can see saying outloud, "WTF!!! ARE YOU INSANE???? YOU'RE GIVING HIM WEIGHT?????" If I owned the room, I'd probably have the hustler removed from the premisis.

 

[Aaron_S]

You're right, you can't always count on someone to save you and sometimes your friends will have to learn the hard way, but if you are able to save them from time to time and know they would appreciate it . . . isn't that what friends are for?

Absolutely.