"Added Monies"
- Thread starter Grady
- Start date
Grady said:
What if its a bar table tourney and they say $25000 added and then charge $1 a game on the tables?? Isnt that the same thing as a green fee? Why should a room with bar tables be permitted to get a "piece" and not a room with 9 ft rentals?
Southpaw
Southpaw,
I always believed that the RO was deserved greens fees for the table time that we took up. After all, we monopolized his room for two days. If the RO benefited from the customers, so be it! That's great. All more for the RO's pocket.
Barbara
I always believed that the RO was deserved greens fees for the table time that we took up. After all, we monopolized his room for two days. If the RO benefited from the customers, so be it! That's great. All more for the RO's pocket.
Barbara
Southpaw said:
im sure the room owner has got in touch with the power co, and said i am having a tournyment couple days, well we wont charge you for those days !!!right??? or the lease payment is deducted for those dayes. if you dont own a room or own a bussines you are blowing smoke up your a**frankncali said:
I think Grady is 110% correct on this subject. If a tournament is going to have green fees, they should make it clear as such.....$25,000 added - $60 entry fee $15 green fee. Then EVERYONE understands where the money is coming and going.
Also, Shannon has done great for pool & from what I read has run a great tour but $25K added is a big step. With what happened in Arizona a few months ago, I can also see why Grady would state that the money in escrow would be a good idea.
Also, Shannon has done great for pool & from what I read has run a great tour but $25K added is a big step. With what happened in Arizona a few months ago, I can also see why Grady would state that the money in escrow would be a good idea.
watchez said:
Does that mean a player pays $60, of which $45 goes to the payout pot, and then $25,000 is added to the payout pot?
If so, then I think that is what Grady is complaining about.
I think Grady wants no green fees paid by the players if any added money is advertised. Have I misunderstood you Grady?
It seems clear in the article
Here is how it is printed in the article:
$20,000 guaranteed added ten-ball event:
Entry: $70 entry/$30 green fee (plus $20 tour card if not a GSBT 2008 current member)
Field: limited to 256 players
Equipment: 9 foot Gold Crowns
Rules: race to 9W/9L, double elimination, rack for each other, winner breaks, finals race to eleven (win by two)
As a player I understand that the room is taking the beating on the $20,000 that they are adding however they hope to recoup some of that on food, drinks, and most likely there will be a spectator charge. (We will not argue whether the room owner makes his money back at this time please
).
I also understand as a player that I am paying $100 total to enter plus a $20 dollar tour card if needed. I personally don't care who gets the green fee but I feel that the tournament director will keep that for running the event, advertisement/flyer/mailing costs. And I understand that the $30 is a fee so therefore it does not go in the prize fund.
As far as the added money from the room owner being guaranteed I don't think it will be an issue as the room owner seems to be a big pool fan and played in the last event that Shannon had there. If you want to ease your mind you ought to come to the event on August 16-17 and visit a nice room with a really great layout that I think will be spectator friendly once bleachers are in place. I understand how it is hard to trust getting paid after many players have been burned in the past so it is up to each player to decide if they want to take a "gamble" and play.
I respect Grady's way of advertising his tournaments as $10,000 guaranteed fund with 70 players, however I think it is harder to persuade players to come to a tournament where they know that the payout depends on how many players are there. In the case of Shannon's event (as long as you aren't skeptical of getting paid) you know that there will be $20,000 in the event no matter how many players. I feel this is just a matter of preference in advertising styles.
If you are concerned about getting paid I urge you to contact Shannon and get his side of the story before we get a nationwide panic of an event that is 4 months away. No need to start a boycott yet guys and gals. I truly hope it is a very successful event for the players, room owner, and the tour!!
Here is how it is printed in the article:
$20,000 guaranteed added ten-ball event:
Entry: $70 entry/$30 green fee (plus $20 tour card if not a GSBT 2008 current member)
Field: limited to 256 players
Equipment: 9 foot Gold Crowns
Rules: race to 9W/9L, double elimination, rack for each other, winner breaks, finals race to eleven (win by two)
As a player I understand that the room is taking the beating on the $20,000 that they are adding however they hope to recoup some of that on food, drinks, and most likely there will be a spectator charge. (We will not argue whether the room owner makes his money back at this time please
).I also understand as a player that I am paying $100 total to enter plus a $20 dollar tour card if needed. I personally don't care who gets the green fee but I feel that the tournament director will keep that for running the event, advertisement/flyer/mailing costs. And I understand that the $30 is a fee so therefore it does not go in the prize fund.
As far as the added money from the room owner being guaranteed I don't think it will be an issue as the room owner seems to be a big pool fan and played in the last event that Shannon had there. If you want to ease your mind you ought to come to the event on August 16-17 and visit a nice room with a really great layout that I think will be spectator friendly once bleachers are in place. I understand how it is hard to trust getting paid after many players have been burned in the past so it is up to each player to decide if they want to take a "gamble" and play.
I respect Grady's way of advertising his tournaments as $10,000 guaranteed fund with 70 players, however I think it is harder to persuade players to come to a tournament where they know that the payout depends on how many players are there. In the case of Shannon's event (as long as you aren't skeptical of getting paid) you know that there will be $20,000 in the event no matter how many players. I feel this is just a matter of preference in advertising styles.
If you are concerned about getting paid I urge you to contact Shannon and get his side of the story before we get a nationwide panic of an event that is 4 months away. No need to start a boycott yet guys and gals. I truly hope it is a very successful event for the players, room owner, and the tour!!
even if a room owner only adds $1000, its pretty difficult for them to make that back. its no secret that tournies are for the players benefits and that the room owner usually does come out ahead from them. i see nothing wrong with green fees. like stick8 said, the room owner still has bills to pay while the tourney is going on.
I wonder how the person putting up the 25,000, makes any money.
I'm not complaining.
My posts on this matter were not meant to be complaints. I've had 21 events with $20,000 or more added and most of those were in hotels, where I averaged $14,000 in gate money. I had other sponsors too, but not big ones. I never charged a green fee in those tournament or table time or charged a player for his girlfriend or wife. The only events I made any money on were casino tournaments.
Again, all Shannon has to do is remove the word added and he can do anything he wants. If you peruse my next four events at my place carefully, you'll see that really we're only adding $1,250 each. That's the best I can do with no admission and no sponsors. Next year I hope I can do better.
I'd go play in this event because it sounds pretty good and it's fairly close. But I believe strongly that One Pocket, Bank Pool or 14.1 should get equal prize money to the 9 Ball. I actually wish the promoters good luck.
My posts on this matter were not meant to be complaints. I've had 21 events with $20,000 or more added and most of those were in hotels, where I averaged $14,000 in gate money. I had other sponsors too, but not big ones. I never charged a green fee in those tournament or table time or charged a player for his girlfriend or wife. The only events I made any money on were casino tournaments.
Again, all Shannon has to do is remove the word added and he can do anything he wants. If you peruse my next four events at my place carefully, you'll see that really we're only adding $1,250 each. That's the best I can do with no admission and no sponsors. Next year I hope I can do better.
I'd go play in this event because it sounds pretty good and it's fairly close. But I believe strongly that One Pocket, Bank Pool or 14.1 should get equal prize money to the 9 Ball. I actually wish the promoters good luck.
Grady said:
Grady, why do most pool tournaments find it necessary to pay 25% of the field.It's the only sport that I know of that pays that many places.The special Olypics only pays three.These huge poker tournaments pay 10% of the field.Just thought you may have good answer for me.
Grady said:
Leaving aside for the moment the question of what gives you the right to unilaterally define exactly what constitutes the sole possible meaning of "added money" for everyone else, surely the most important bottom line is simply that advertising of events is honest and above board as regards describing what the entrants will be playing for. To most of us "added money" simply means money which is being added in one way or another and as long as we know how much the "added" money is and what it is being "added" to it qualifies perfectly well to be referred to as "added money". In that respect it doesn't matter if it's being added to gross entry fees or to net entry fees as long as the potential entrants know which it is.
The article on the home page carries a crystal clear description of what proportion of the entry money will be deducted from each $100 dollar entry fee as green fees ($30) and is equally crystal clear that the "added money" will be added to the remaining balance of $70 x the number of entries. Therefore nobody is being in the slightest bit misled in this particular case. Presumably any posters etc for the events will carry a similar description.
If no-one is being misled and the money situation is crystal clearly spelt out in the advertising, what's the beef?
Given that the split of entry money/green fees is clearly spelt out for all to see, what the heck do you suggest that Shannon should have described the $20,000 and the $5,000 as, if not money which is being "added"? You say he should remove the word "added".......well you try simply removing the word "added" from the tournament money description in the home page article and see how much sense it makes. Removing the word "added" would actually contribute nothing to describing how the prize fund is made up and if anything would confuse some readers because it would read "$20,000 guaranteed ten ball event" which would suggest to some readers that there will be a prize fund of exactly $20,000 no matter how many entries there are, making those readers incorrectly assume that the organiser and/or room were between them pocketing all the $100's.
To an unbiased onlooker it seems that in this case you might have accidentally picked an inappropriate target to use an an example of what might well be a valid beef about the advertising techniques or practices of others.
A similar discussion took place with a tournament organiser friend out here recently and I've no doubt the issue arises in other places in the world too. Sorry if this post sounds grumpy but you kinda set the tone with the content of the opening post which to some of us seemed pretty much unfair
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Added money?
I don't see what the problem is. As long as the player knows what it will cost him, and what is being added to the entry fees, there is no problem. As long as the TD's fees don't come out of the entry fees, and the auctioneer's fees come out of the player auction. If the auctioneer's fees come out of the pot, then the players need to be told that a percentage of Calcutta goes to the auctioneer.
I do think $30 green fee is too high, $20 would be more like it for that tournament. Here in the midwest, almost all tournaments are on bar tables, so we have to pump quarters into the tables.
Everyone pretty well knows that a room owner breaks even on a tournament, and any money he makes is off the bar and food during the tournament from the players and railbirds. Most tournaments here, the room owner puts up the added money, or the majority of it. I wish Evelyn Dysert, who is an AZB member and runs the Midwest 9 ball tour, would comment on this. She does an excellent job.
I don't see what the problem is. As long as the player knows what it will cost him, and what is being added to the entry fees, there is no problem. As long as the TD's fees don't come out of the entry fees, and the auctioneer's fees come out of the player auction. If the auctioneer's fees come out of the pot, then the players need to be told that a percentage of Calcutta goes to the auctioneer.
I do think $30 green fee is too high, $20 would be more like it for that tournament. Here in the midwest, almost all tournaments are on bar tables, so we have to pump quarters into the tables.
Everyone pretty well knows that a room owner breaks even on a tournament, and any money he makes is off the bar and food during the tournament from the players and railbirds. Most tournaments here, the room owner puts up the added money, or the majority of it. I wish Evelyn Dysert, who is an AZB member and runs the Midwest 9 ball tour, would comment on this. She does an excellent job.
I still don't understand how you guys aren't comprehending this. If a tournament has no added money and its a $50 entry, $10 of which is green fees, then a 20 player field would yield an $800 purse. Now if the same tourney had $1000 added then the purse would be $1800. Green fees are an entirely seperate fee. They are for the room owner, tourney director, or however the two decide they will be split. It doesn't matter if the room or a seperate sponsor is putting the added money in, it comes after the green fees.
And to Grady, I'm sure you have put on many tourneys with no green fees, etc.. That is your right to do so if you please and if you don't want yourself or the room owner to recoup for table time. However, for you to say that its not right for the other 99% of tourneys that have been doing it with green fees for as long as I can remember is just ridiculous. Added money has always been like this and now that another room owner around the corner is putting on a big tournament, the sour grapes come out. IMO
And to Grady, I'm sure you have put on many tourneys with no green fees, etc.. That is your right to do so if you please and if you don't want yourself or the room owner to recoup for table time. However, for you to say that its not right for the other 99% of tourneys that have been doing it with green fees for as long as I can remember is just ridiculous. Added money has always been like this and now that another room owner around the corner is putting on a big tournament, the sour grapes come out. IMO
This tournament is being played in my home pool room, King Street Billiards, and I am very excited about it. This is a fantastic poolroom whose owner loves pool and is trying to bring big time pool to an area that hasn't ever had a big event. He's looking for this to be an annual event and for it to get bigger every year. I don't think we should be bickering about semantics. Fact is, players will have a tournament with a very low entry fee and a lot of money added and I imagine that most of the top players will be here. Why wouldn't they? I don't think they'll not show because someone thinks the flyer of the tournament should be worded differently.
You win!
Is it wrong to hold any promoter up to the same high standards I have set for myself? I knew I'd get keehauled for raising this issue. So I'm through.
I do want to answer the one gentleman's query about the 25% average payout in pool events. Golf pays half of the field and I'd love to get pool where it does the same. The reason for the 25% in pool has always been that the promoter gets more weaker players if they know they have a better chance to cash.
Is it wrong to hold any promoter up to the same high standards I have set for myself? I knew I'd get keehauled for raising this issue. So I'm through.
I do want to answer the one gentleman's query about the 25% average payout in pool events. Golf pays half of the field and I'd love to get pool where it does the same. The reason for the 25% in pool has always been that the promoter gets more weaker players if they know they have a better chance to cash.