Adjustments on Slower Equipment

[Pawlowski424]

Hey everybody!

Let me explain this a little bit. For the most part, I have objective ways of doing things. I have an objective way to sight my shots, aim my shots, where I am hitting the cue ball, patterns, position, etc. And by objective, I mean that I have ways of doing things that aren't effected day-to-day. What it does for me is take a lot of "feel" out of my game. Which ultimately makes me more consistent. There's situations where feel is unavoidable, and just pool in general. I know this. I've learned that explaining a "drag shot" (with a focus on when the cue ball will turn over) to someone unfamiliar with the feel of that shot, isn't so straight forward. But I think you get the point.

My current struggle right now is adjusting to slower tables. I'm not talking your everyday pool room table (tables in this environment are much better maintained). More specifically, I'm talking bar tables that are actually in bars. Heavy traffic tables with heavily used balls that aren't maintained very well. I'll mention some of the things that I notice about these tables/balls; I'm hoping I can get some help on what will be effected and how to make adjustments:

1. Cue ball turns over quickly (Cue ball slides less). What this will effect - from my perspective - is any shot with spin on the cue ball. In other words, I hit bottom right at a medium speed, but the spin doesn't stay on the cue ball (cue ball starts or is turning over) by the time it contacts my object ball, therefore effecting my shot. I tried adjusting by always using max bottom for stops and slight draws. As well as using side spin in place of stun (sliding cue ball). On some medium speed shots, I tried hitting stun at higher speeds instead, but it wasn't consistent. Suggestions?

2. 2-3 Cushion shape plays long. This is a classic. Probably a symptom of a cue ball that turns over quickly. Cue ball starts rolling 12-to-6 quicker, therefore lengthening out off of said cushions. My first question would be is there a rule of thumb of how "long" it may go? For example, sending the cue ball out of the corner 2 cushions. My target is 2 diamonds past the side pocket. How much longer should I expect it to go?

3. Stun follow/draw. If this shot arises, my preferred way of shooting it (normal table) is to hit with some speed and adjust where I'm hitting the cue ball (1/4 tip above/below center) depending on the distance. Long short of it is, that this shot is pretty much non-existent. It's only when I'm close to the object ball (1' min. 2' max.) that I can use it.

4. Throw? With the worn felt and heavily used balls, is there something I can do to increase my shot making? I feel like a small amount of outside or inside wouldn't hurt, but I'm unsure.

5. Are banks and kicks effected?

6. Anything I'm missing. Open suggestions.

Thank you very much everybody! I appreciate any input.

 

[MitchAlsup]

1) is a combination of cloth friction and the non-shiny surface on the CB. Fuzzy felt has high friction and cause CB to roll naturally quickly. When CB is not polished it has significant friction and makes CB attain natural roll much faster. On the other hand, side spin is hardly effected. Suggestion:: just get used to it.

2) not exactly what you are getting at since my natural rail bounce includes the CB rolling naturally at impact. Also note: the diamonds are back from the rail the distance they are to compensate for the natural forward roll of CB. Suggestion:: Find the point of rail contact and move the point of aim from that point back to the distance the diamonds are back from the rail.

3) Non-polished CB and fuzzy felt will erase follow just like it erases draw.

4) balls with high friction take throw more, so use a bit of inside to compensate.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Are you really trying to dissect bar pool ?
It’s harder to get the right speed on ice hockey pool tables than a bar table imo

 

[bbb]

1) is a combination of cloth friction and the non-shiny surface on the CB. Fuzzy felt has high friction and cause CB to roll naturally quickly. When CB is not polished it has significant friction and makes CB attain natural roll much faster. On the other hand, side spin is hardly effected. Suggestion:: just get used to it.

2) not exactly what you are getting at since my natural rail bounce includes the CB rolling naturally at impact. Also note: the diamonds are back from the rail the distance they are to compensate for the natural forward roll of CB. Suggestion:: Find the point of rail contact and move the point of aim from that point back to the distance the diamonds are back from the rail.

3) Non-polished CB and fuzzy felt will erase follow just like it erases draw.

4) balls with high friction take throw more, so use a bit of inside to compensate.

Your #4
Wouldnt inside english make collision induced throw worse ?

 

[couldnthinkof01]

You know what is bothering you. Go to the tables in your off time, set up those shots and work on them until your feel adapts.
I wouldn't be trying to mess with throwing balls to make them go in. Spin is mostly for changing rebound angle off the rail.
Just set up the ones that feel weird and work on them for 20 minutes. Do this for a few days a week.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Your #4
Wouldnt inside english make collision induced throw worse ?

Yes, you are correct, and I got it backward.

 

[fastone371]

Are you really trying to dissect bar pool ?
It’s harder to get the right speed on ice hockey pool tables than a bar table imo

Not really, say if you go 1 rail back to center on a 9' table, on a 7' table you go 2 rails back to center, not exactly rocket science, people do it every day.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Not really, say if you go 1 rail back to center on a 9' table, on a 7' table you go 2 rails back to center, not exactly rocket science, people do it every day.

How’s that help?
You never shoot a shot like that when playing

 

[Quesports]

I can tell you how to fix everything.

Join a bar table pool league, preferably one that plays in different bars weekly.

You will learn pretty quickly to forget about all sorts of spin issues and will be using three things. Follow, draw and speed.

Follow and draw are self explanatory so no need to go there.

If you slow roll a ball on most bar tables the ball will roll offline. They are rarely level so, you use speed to keep the balls from rolling off line.. Just hit them harder.

If you try finesse on a bar box it will only cause you trouble in the long run.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Are you playing on a coin operated table with a bigger/heavier cb? If so, everything will be off.

 

[boogieman]

Hey everybody!

Let me explain this a little bit. For the most part, I have objective ways of doing things. I have an objective way to sight my shots, aim my shots, where I am hitting the cue ball, patterns, position, etc. And by objective, I mean that I have ways of doing things that aren't effected day-to-day. What it does for me is take a lot of "feel" out of my game. Which ultimately makes me more consistent. There's situations where feel is unavoidable, and just pool in general. I know this. I've learned that explaining a "drag shot" (with a focus on when the cue ball will turn over) to someone unfamiliar with the feel of that shot, isn't so straight forward. But I think you get the point.

My current struggle right now is adjusting to slower tables. I'm not talking your everyday pool room table (tables in this environment are much better maintained). More specifically, I'm talking bar tables that are actually in bars. Heavy traffic tables with heavily used balls that aren't maintained very well. I'll mention some of the things that I notice about these tables/balls; I'm hoping I can get some help on what will be effected and how to make adjustments:

1. Cue ball turns over quickly (Cue ball slides less). What this will effect - from my perspective - is any shot with spin on the cue ball. In other words, I hit bottom right at a medium speed, but the spin doesn't stay on the cue ball (cue ball starts or is turning over) by the time it contacts my object ball, therefore effecting my shot. I tried adjusting by always using max bottom for stops and slight draws. As well as using side spin in place of stun (sliding cue ball). On some medium speed shots, I tried hitting stun at higher speeds instead, but it wasn't consistent. Suggestions?

2. 2-3 Cushion shape plays long. This is a classic. Probably a symptom of a cue ball that turns over quickly. Cue ball starts rolling 12-to-6 quicker, therefore lengthening out off of said cushions. My first question would be is there a rule of thumb of how "long" it may go? For example, sending the cue ball out of the corner 2 cushions. My target is 2 diamonds past the side pocket. How much longer should I expect it to go?

3. Stun follow/draw. If this shot arises, my preferred way of shooting it (normal table) is to hit with some speed and adjust where I'm hitting the cue ball (1/4 tip above/below center) depending on the distance. Long short of it is, that this shot is pretty much non-existent. It's only when I'm close to the object ball (1' min. 2' max.) that I can use it.

4. Throw? With the worn felt and heavily used balls, is there something I can do to increase my shot making? I feel like a small amount of outside or inside wouldn't hurt, but I'm unsure.

5. Are banks and kicks effected?

6. Anything I'm missing. Open suggestions.

Thank you very much everybody! I appreciate any input.

Use natural roll and adapt your game to do so. The killers on the bar tables don't fight physics. I love sliding clean balls on clean fast cloth, hitting low and watching natural roll take over, stunning them 3 rails, drawing out of trouble, finessing a ball etc. The truth is on slow, dirty, or humid equipment you just have to not fight what the CB wants to do. It's worth practicing on the sub par equipment if you're playing serious on it.

Banking and kicking will not work how you believe it will. Banks you kind of have to adapt. Most Valleys in the wild have different rails on every section of the table. Different age rubber, etc. The companies that rent them usually do a big batch and don't care about which table had which rail. So banker beware... Build your kick game with high english only, don't rely on spin to make angles on dirty equipment. Any spin off the rails magnifies any error, so learn to hit with high english only. It's hard to explain but it allows you to quickly get the feel of a table. Any spin will make it tough to get feel.

If you must draw just make sure the CB will end up in a good spot even if you over-run it 3 diamonds. It will often not take then bam, you drew a full table length when you wanted 2 diamonds.

Also on dirty balls throw can be your friend at times, really opens up options. On bar tables with generous pockets you can get away with cheating the pocket more than you would imagine. Nothing like leaving someone a lock up and they hit the rail 3 diamonds away and it still goes in. I'm not complaining, but you have to learn just how much you can get away with on a coin op table. It's a lot!

If you must use stun, imagine the CB floating above the cloth, this is how you have to hit it. It's odd but it can be learned.

 

[Pawlowski424]

1) is a combination of cloth friction and the non-shiny surface on the CB. Fuzzy felt has high friction and cause CB to roll naturally quickly. When CB is not polished it has significant friction and makes CB attain natural roll much faster. On the other hand, side spin is hardly effected. Suggestion:: just get used to it.

2) not exactly what you are getting at since my natural rail bounce includes the CB rolling naturally at impact. Also note: the diamonds are back from the rail the distance they are to compensate for the natural forward roll of CB. Suggestion:: Find the point of rail contact and move the point of aim from that point back to the distance the diamonds are back from the rail.

3) Non-polished CB and fuzzy felt will erase follow just like it erases draw.

4) balls with high friction take throw more, so use a bit of inside to compensate.

Awesome! I had heard Dennis Orcollo mention a smidge of inside on slower tables. But I didn't see a reason as to why one would do that. Thank you!

 

[Pawlowski424]

I can tell you how to fix everything.

Join a bar table pool league, preferably one that plays in different bars weekly.

You will learn pretty quickly to forget about all sorts of spin issues and will be using three things. Follow, draw and speed.

Follow and draw are self explanatory so no need to go there.

If you slow roll a ball on most bar tables the ball will roll offline. They are rarely level so, you use speed to keep the balls from rolling off line.. Just hit them harder.

If you try finesse on a bar box it will only cause you trouble in the long run.

...You answered none of my questions lol. Thanks for trying though.

 

[Pawlowski424]

Are you playing on a coin operated table with a bigger/heavier cb? If so, everything will be off.

Coin operated? Yes.
Bigger cue ball? No
I would've known that difference.

 

[Pawlowski424]

Use natural roll and adapt your game to do so. The killers on the bar tables don't fight physics. I love sliding clean balls on clean fast cloth, hitting low and watching natural roll take over, stunning them 3 rails, drawing out of trouble, finessing a ball etc. The truth is on slow, dirty, or humid equipment you just have to not fight what the CB wants to do. It's worth practicing on the sub par equipment if you're playing serious on it.

Banking and kicking will not work how you believe it will. Banks you kind of have to adapt. Most Valleys in the wild have different rails on every section of the table. Different age rubber, etc. The companies that rent them usually do a big batch and don't care about which table had which rail. So banker beware... Build your kick game with high english only, don't rely on spin to make angles on dirty equipment. Any spin off the rails magnifies any error, so learn to hit with high english only. It's hard to explain but it allows you to quickly get the feel of a table. Any spin will make it tough to get feel.

If you must draw just make sure the CB will end up in a good spot even if you over-run it 3 diamonds. It will often not take then bam, you drew a full table length when you wanted 2 diamonds.

Also on dirty balls throw can be your friend at times, really opens up options. On bar tables with generous pockets you can get away with cheating the pocket more than you would imagine. Nothing like leaving someone a lock up and they hit the rail 3 diamonds away and it still goes in. I'm not complaining, but you have to learn just how much you can get away with on a coin op table. It's a lot!

If you must use stun, imagine the CB floating above the cloth, this is how you have to hit it. It's odd but it can be learned..

Kicking - I will try that! That makes a lot of sense now that I think about it (using above center/high). These last few months I had been using benchmarks and it was so frustrating trying to get a feel for when the cue ball would turn over or lengthen out. Especially going 2 or more cushions. I tried adjusting my first cushion target left or right, but it wasn't consistent enough.

Drawing - You're spot on with the draw dilemma. It's either little to no movement, or across the whole table! lol. It's brutal sometimes. I do shoot with a "just-in-case" speed. Am I better off short or long? I just want to see if someone has found a good way of handling this problem.

Cheating the Pocket - I've noticed lol

Stun - I'll try it. Won't hurt none. I have noticed that even when I get the stun action I need, it's f***ing skid city somedays. And even after contact, a stun will STILL turnover after hitting a rail. I'm gonna try using a smidge of bottom out (depending on distance and speed) and see if i can get stun type action/lines with that as well.

I appreciate the response! These were the kind of answers I was hoping for. Thanks!

 

[Pawlowski424]

You know what is bothering you. Go to the tables in your off time, set up those shots and work on them until your feel adapts.
I wouldn't be trying to mess with throwing balls to make them go in. Spin is mostly for changing rebound angle off the rail.
Just set up the ones that feel weird and work on them for 20 minutes. Do this for a few days a week.

...Thanks for trying.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Coin operated? Yes.
Bigger cue ball? No
I would've known that difference.

Unless it's a Diamond brand, which uses an optical sensor to detect the white color of the CB, the CB on other coin-op brands is different than the OB's. There are 3 ways: Heavier CB, larger CB, or a standard sized CB with a magnet embedded inside of it.

Try using an OB as a CB (striking other OB's) and see if you get a different reaction when playing stop/draw/follow shots.

Or, try striking an OB into the CB, and see if the reaction is different. The draw should be much easier in this case if the CB is indeed heavier.

 

[Pawlowski424]

Unless it's a Diamond brand, which uses an optical sensor to detect the white color of the CB, the CB on other coin-op brands is different than the OB's. There are 3 ways: Heavier CB, larger CB, or a standard sized CB with a magnet embedded inside of it.

Try using an OB as a CB (striking other OB's) and see if you get a different reaction when playing stop/draw/follow shots.

Or, try striking an OB into the CB, and see if the reaction is different. The draw should be much easier in this case if the CB is indeed heavier.

I'm asking you to trust me when I say I know the difference. These are not diamonds. These are pre-Valley (Dynamo), American Heritage, new adult something, etc. That are not in an environment where they are worth it to be maintained. It's not so much the table manufacturer, it's the incredibly used and slow conditions.

I don't struggle with draw. I have ways of doing things that are consistent and accurate on any decent table and up (1'-2', half table, pinch, drag, stun draw, full table), but those methods don't exist on these tables I'm struggling with. Half table and pinch exist; that's about it I'm sure I'm playing the tables the correct way, at the moment; using just-in-case speed. I'm just asking in the case somebody has a better solution.