Advanced 8-ball strategy?

Billy_Bob

Billy_Bob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm playing 8-ball with some *very* good players lately and they are killing me!

I'm playing these guys for practice once a week for about 4 or 5 hours. I feel I am very fortunate to be able to have this time with such good players - To play them again and again for several hours.

But I am losing, losing, losing. I was shooting and I heard one of them say "I know what he is is doing and it will not work, I will win." And he did win. I was playing a safety to leave him without a shot and also tie up the 8-ball. Seemed like a good idea to me, but not good enough to work on that shark! I do win a few games every now and then, but it is rare.

BTW, I am mentally *exhausted* for the entire next day after one of these brutal sessions.

Anyway I need to learn advanced 8-ball strategy...

-I first learned to pocket balls - first one to pocket all their balls wins was the thinking.
-Then I learned I could sometimes leave the CB in a nasty spot intentionally when I did not have a good shot - keep other player from pocketing his balls.
-Then I learned about controlling the table - If one of my balls was blocking the path of my opponent's ball, then to leave it there as I had his ball "in jail".
-Then I learned CB position play - leave CB in position for next shot or break out clusters.
-Then I learned to fix trouble balls early on. Can't run out if one or more of your balls is tied up.
-Then I learned to leave 3 balls on the table until I can runout. My opponent will then have a difficult time snookering me.
- Currently working on safety play (remembering this is an option) and position play (takes time to learn).

But it seems to me there is a lot more to this game than the above. And advanced players know these things and I do not.

One success I had was when a player expertly shot his ball to block the 8 (which was on a long rail) from going into the corner pocket. I was lucky to have some "ammunition" available (several balls left on table) and was able to shoot my ball to stop on the rail between his blocking ball and the 8. Then later I was able to shoot a combo to pocket his blocking ball and then leave my ball blocking the 8. So my next turn, I was able to shoot in my remaining balls, shoot in the blocking ball last, then shoot in the 8.

I don't know what these guys are doing exactly, but it seems that they are so good at position play, they can look at the layout of my balls, then leave the CB in a spot where I can shoot in a ball or two, but will have a very difficult time getting position on say the 3rd ball. So I am dammed if I do, dammed if I don't. If I don't run out, they will. If I try to runout, I will have trouble getting on the 2nd or 3rd ball. (Say leaving me straight in on the only ball I can see or 2 inches away from the only ball I can shoot.)

Any tips on advanced strategy?
 
eight ball is like chess.

eight ball is like chess and it's kind of difficult to give a detailed enough description online to help you out, but there are a few things you seemed to be missing.

One, if you look at the table and can't runout, DON'T make ANY of your balls, look for the trouble balls, both yours and his, and see if you can try to free up yours while leaving his. You have to reevaluate the entire table after every shot. My friend Dan Wallace just wrote an article on this concept. It's not like nineball where you can continue using the same original pattern you planned out from the get go.

If you're off even a little on shape or your opponent changes the layout even a little, you HAVE to take the time to completely re-evaluate the entire table because it is likely that there is now a better way to plan out the table because of that change.

You aren't locked into an order of play like you are in nineball or rotation, you can constantly reevaluate to determine your best course of action.

Besides those things, you would need someone that really knows the game to point out as you play the things that you can do, and there isn't just one best way to do things in eightball, it will eventually come down to your style of play and ability to execute certain types of shots as well.
 
Jaden said:
One, if you look at the table and can't runout, DON'T make ANY of your balls, look for the trouble balls, both yours and his, and see if you can try to free up yours while leaving his...
Click to expand...

I was kind of thinking about this. Instead of leaving my 3 balls thing, leaving more balls or perhaps all of them. Then I have lots of "solders" blocking things.

I'll need to get a whole lot better at position play though. One of the guys I'm playing can shoot a ball in, then get the cue ball to travel right through all the "traffic" not hitting any other balls and leaving perfect shape for his next shot. Amazing!
 
Billy Bob,

I have a friend, Jeff Melton, that is a great 8-Ball player. Jeff and I have talked about strategy many times, and it simply comes down to this. After the break, first, look at the 8-Ball, does it have a pocket, does it have multiple pockets. Then look at the layout of the suit you want. Can you run them out, how many cluster, how many trouble balls, any blockers. Let's say you can run them out... first look for a link ball, or the ball you want to shoot last to get on the 8. Decide where you want to be to shoot that ball so that you'll get position on the 8-Ball, then work backwards from there to your first ball. In 9-Ball, most good players look at 3 balls at a time. In 8-Ball, you have to consider EVERY ball in the runout and in what order you're going to shoot them. PATTERNS PATTERNS PATTERNS!!!! That's what 8-Ball is all about. Now, you also have to be flexible... if you miss position a little, then you might want to alter your pattern, or even change your link ball. When this happens, give it the same weight of thought and consideration that you do when you're studying the table after the break.

Now, if you can't run them out, then look for a safety, preferably one where you can break out one of your balls or clusters while playing the safety, but make sure it's a KILLER SAFE! Good players know the kick lines and banks. I play many players that think "I'll leave him a tough bank and then I'll get another shot"... They're usually wrong... I probably shoot as many banks shots in a day as many players shoot cut shots.

When I play 8-Ball and I'm deciding on the pattern I want, the first thing I do is the same thing I do in 14.1... I take out my potential trouble balls, like balls frozen to or close to a cushion, balls that have tough angles, balls that have only one pocket or position from which I can make the ball, stragglers up or down table away from the majority of my balls, etc, etc, etc... I also tend to play one end of the table, then the other. In other words, if I have 2 balls at one end, and the 8 and 4 other balls at the other end, I'll usually try to clear out the light end of the table first... not a hard and fast rule, but something to consider.

Now, when I'm deciding what pattern I'll shoot, I LOVE to find patterns where all I have to do is shoot Stop Shots and Finesse Speed shots. I don't want to hit a ball with speed and power on an 8-Ball table if I don't have to. And unless necessary, I don't want to be in a position where I have to twist my cookie much. I like to stay as close to vertical center on the CB as possible... STOP, STOP, STOP... dream pattern...

Safetey play... There are good safeties, mediocre safeties and bad safeties. In 9-Ball, you only have to hide from one ball. In 8-Ball you have to hide from several, often as many as 7. Now, if you have a rack where you CAN'T run out and HAVE to consider safeties, then leaving 3 of your balls on the table and playing safe may work against many average players, but with a good player, you've already taken all the traffic out his way and he's going to eat your lunch, MOST TIMES. If you have to play safe in 8-Ball, make sure it's an inescapable safe... freeze the guy up so he can't possible kick or jump and hit a ball. Don't go to just leave him a tough kick or a bank, because a good player is going to kick well enough that if he doesn't MAKE the shot, then he's going to kick to the correct side of it to leave you either safe or tough... and if you only have three balls left on the table, then it's MUCH easier for him to stick you from a safe you played on him.

WATCH the guys that are beating you... watch the patterns they play and try to reason out why they do things the way they do them. It'll come... 8-Ball can be a chess match if you don't have a runout available, you just need to learn the moves that the players that are beating you are using.

Later,
Bob
 
Well written, Jaden... same things I was trying to say... I will add one more thing. Three days a week, another friend and I do drills together, then play 8-Ball and 9-Ball against each other. We don't spar, so to speak, but every shot, we discuss it... "Why are you shooting that shot, what's your plan, I think this will work better". In other words, we tear each others play and patterns apart and try to come up with "better" options. This has helped both of our 8-Ball games tremendously.

later,
Bob
 
You cannot accelerate experience.

Experience tells you what ball to shoot first, how to do it, how to break up clusters, how and when to play safe, how to control the cue ball, how to win under pressure, and 1,001 different layers of things that overall makeup your game.

Don't let anybody fool you; 8 ball is hard game.

Just keep shooting, and it will come!
 
Billy_Bob said:
I'm playing 8-ball with some *very* good players lately and they are killing me!

But I am losing, losing, losing. I was shooting and I heard one of them say "I know what he is is doing and it will not work, I will win." And he did win. I was playing a safety to leave him without a shot and also tie up the 8-ball. Seemed like a good idea to me, but not good enough to work on that shark! I do win a few games every now and then, but it is rare.
Click to expand...

This (boldfaced) might sum up your entire thread. You don't know what the next level of skill is thinking. I guess that's why you're asking. (BTW, if you're going to play a safety, you should also think several sequential shots at a time. Your opponent's answer to the safety is crucial).


-Then I learned to leave 3 balls on the table until I can runout. My opponent will then have a difficult time snookering me.
Click to expand...

I think it's fair to say that I'm a fairly accomplished 8-ball strategist. I've never heard anyone say this. If the table is wide open, it's wide open. That's with one of your ball or all of your balls left on the table.



- Currently working on safety play (remembering this is an option) and position play (takes time to learn).
Click to expand...
If these are what you're "working on" now, then that is the level you're at. As long as you keep reminding yourself of your limitations (see whitewolf's sig.) in position play and overall execution, then you should be thinking about PATTERNS that fit within the scope of your abilities.

For example, a great pattern that is, say, 50% for me to execute might be 75% for a better player to execute, and 90% for a professional. The professional then has this pattern available for him, the better player might have this pattern available for him, and I wouldn't have this pattern available for me. So, I have to work on my execution to bring this pattern into my game.

In other words, learning advanced concepts may not mean anything if your execution level doesn't match up.

Fred
 
Cane nailed it on the head... pattern play is the key. I had a huge breakthrough in my game when I discovered that fact (for myself) and learned to see the patterns. Once you can spot the possible paths of a run, you will know if it is high-risk or easy, then you can run-out or work around for your safety.

The guy that is threading the needle through a forest of balls just has good visualization of the 90 degree departure path rule and how to alter the cueball path along that line.

Also: remember to play patterns and position to leave yourself multiple options... like position on two (or even more) balls at a time.

Then grit your teeth and refuse to give up the table.
 
As before

as I have stated, Most Pool players could benefit their playing by taking
a 'logic' course. What you are learning by playing these players that are
good offensive and defensive players is a 'NEW way to think'. In studying
them, and their moves, you are learning what they do, when they do it,
and eventually figure out why they are doing it, and you actually see how
they do it.

If you take an adapted 7 steps of Scientific study, and apply it to Pool,
you will learn much faster.

For the brief version, it includes:
What ?
When ?
Why ?
How ? (not necessarily in that order)
There are mental processes to go through, just like there are physical
steps to go through to have a good stroke. And the mental processes
include applying logic after EVERY shot. That is why practice helps you,
because it helps prepare you for situations you have or have not encountered before, and to have a plan on what to do.

People set goals for themselves, whether intrinsically or extrinsically.

I am going to be an excellent Pool player. That is the 'what'. Why do I want to be an excellent Pool player .... because I like it and I want to
be good. How am I going to accomplish that ..... by learning everything I can through instruction, books, video, league, and tournaments. When will I be an excellent Pool player? ... I don't know for sure, but I will keeep track of my progress, and evaluate it on a regular basis, and test my skills by playing in large competitive tournaments.

Just as you develop steps to become a good Pool player, you also have to develop steps for running a table, and you have to stop and evaluate your plan after each shot. Just as life throws you a curve sometimes, the table can too, and to continue getting to your goal of winning the game, you may need to play a safety NOW, so you can move forward LATER.

What do you think all these Pool books are trying to teach you? They are trying to teach you how to think about the game, and teach you what to do in situations, and when.

Someone else can only 'Jumpstart' your brain, you have to keep it going yourself. You are lucky today to have so many sources available to help you in your game. When I grew up, nobody told you sh*t, and you just had to figure everything out yourself, usually when you experienced in real life.
 
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Cornerman said:
You don't know what the next level of skill is thinking.

Your opponent's answer to the safety is crucial.
Click to expand...

the only way to learn what to expect is to play higher level opponents and pay attention. it's no use leaving no shot if you leave an easy return safety!

Cornerman said:
In other words, learning advanced concepts may not mean anything if your execution level doesn't match up.

Fred
Click to expand...

execution is at the core of all pool. without it, everything else is useless.


/my $.02

-s
 
The game is so complex it's hard to construct many absolute theorems, but here are few generalizations:

1. If when you are at the table, at there is a 40% or better chance at a top player getting out from there, which should be 80%+ of games after the break, go for the out. If it's less that 40%, play to improve your position, only pot your own balls if it helps you achieve this.

2. If you can't make those kind of outs as the average player cannot, better to spend your time practising, or just go for it anyway and deal with the consequences. If you're serious about your game, you've at least got to attempt to play it in the way the top players do.

3. If during an out, you fall out of 40% run-out position, it's usually best to look for some middle ground asap. Look for a shot that will help you to make the out next shot and leave the opponent something tough.

4. When these rules are not appropriate, due to complex clusters or positions, look for Expected Value (EV) as the poker players call it. Look for the shot that improves your overall position. Learning the myraid of moves here may take years, but much of high level 8-ball is determined by the success of stage 1.

Note: I chose 40% here as a rough guide. It means that 40% of the time you would win that game in that shot, and you would pick up 10% or more of frames if you mess it up somehow. Of course there will be 70% games where a safety may likely make it a 90% win chance, but those are the kid of situations that are hard to be generalised. Always be on the lookout to improve your EV.
 
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Cane said:
Billy Bob,

Now, if you can't run them out, then look for a safety, preferably one where you can break out one of your balls or clusters while playing the safety, but make sure it's a KILLER SAFE! Good players know the kick lines and banks.



Safetey play... There are good safeties, mediocre safeties and bad safeties. In 9-Ball, you only have to hide from one ball. In 8-Ball you have to hide from several, often as many as 7. ... and if you only have three balls left on the table, then it's MUCH easier for him to stick you from a safe you played on him.

WATCH the guys that are beating you... watch the patterns they play and try to reason out why they do things the way they do them. It'll come... 8-Ball can be a chess match if you don't have a runout available, you just need to learn the moves that the players that are beating you are using.
Click to expand...

Bob is right on the money. Here is one easy-to-remember summary guideline for 8-ball play: "Don't start to run out until you KNOW you WILL run-out" ...otherwise you're often just clearing the table for your opponent. It is an old 8-ball hustle - "you break & I will take 4 of your balls off the table" It works so well because the obstacles are gone, the paths to the pockets are clear; there's no place to hide. Also the golf conncept of "laying up" - leaving your ball close to the pockets for easy potting later on works too. You are on the right track, the guys you are playing are more experienced than you. Be patient. Oh, and play some straight pool - it'll help your safety play because in straight pool a safe has to work against every single ball on the table, not just half of 'em.
 
Cane, great job at filling in some of the blanks...

Cane, that was pretty much as much as can be said about eightball in a forum setting like this. I left some of that stuff out of my post because I don't know if someone who hasn't gotten to that level of understanding can really understand it without having somone show him some examples.

I think that it is important in eightball or any game for that matter to really pay attention when you're playing players that are better than you, especially in games like eightball or one pocket where the strategy played will more often determine the winner than raw talent.

you should definitely try to reverse engineer the thought process behind a choice different from one that you would make if they are consistently beating you and you know that they are better than you...
 
Cardinal2B said:
Bob is right on the money. Here is one easy-to-remember summary guideline for 8-ball play: "Don't start to run out until you KNOW you WILL run-out"
Click to expand...

Don't mean to be pedantic, but I think this is an important point. We need to play the odds. If my opponent followed the above rule he would throw away many chance. He would knock back a 90% chance at going out, and leave me a chance at reducing the strength of his position, or perhaps even going out myself.

As I said before, 40% chance of going out is a reasonable cut off line to go for it in my books. Sometimes 25% is enough to make it worthwhile if the opponent has horrible balls and there's a good chance for leaving a decent safe during the out if it messes up.
 
Billy_Bob said:
I'm playing 8-ball with some *very* good players lately and they are killing me!

I'm playing these guys for practice once a week for about 4 or 5 hours. I feel I am very fortunate to be able to have this time with such good players - To play them again and again for several hours.

But I am losing, losing, losing. I was shooting and I heard one of them say "I know what he is is doing and it will not work, I will win." And he did win. I was playing a safety to leave him without a shot and also tie up the 8-ball. Seemed like a good idea to me, but not good enough to work on that shark! I do win a few games every now and then, but it is rare.

BTW, I am mentally *exhausted* for the entire next day after one of these brutal sessions.

Anyway I need to learn advanced 8-ball strategy...

-I first learned to pocket balls - first one to pocket all their balls wins was the thinking.
-Then I learned I could sometimes leave the CB in a nasty spot intentionally when I did not have a good shot - keep other player from pocketing his balls.
-Then I learned about controlling the table - If one of my balls was blocking the path of my opponent's ball, then to leave it there as I had his ball "in jail".
-Then I learned CB position play - leave CB in position for next shot or break out clusters.
-Then I learned to fix trouble balls early on. Can't run out if one or more of your balls is tied up.
-Then I learned to leave 3 balls on the table until I can runout. My opponent will then have a difficult time snookering me.
- Currently working on safety play (remembering this is an option) and position play (takes time to learn).

But it seems to me there is a lot more to this game than the above. And advanced players know these things and I do not.

One success I had was when a player expertly shot his ball to block the 8 (which was on a long rail) from going into the corner pocket. I was lucky to have some "ammunition" available (several balls left on table) and was able to shoot my ball to stop on the rail between his blocking ball and the 8. Then later I was able to shoot a combo to pocket his blocking ball and then leave my ball blocking the 8. So my next turn, I was able to shoot in my remaining balls, shoot in the blocking ball last, then shoot in the 8.

That is not a good strategy. By putting your ball behind his ball and the pocket only gives you another problem to deal with. Either pocket his ball or think of a better place for your ball.

I don't know what these guys are doing exactly, but it seems that they are so good at position play, they can look at the layout of my balls, then leave the CB in a spot where I can shoot in a ball or two, but will have a very difficult time getting position on say the 3rd ball.

It sounds like you are finally realizing the difference between a bar banger and someone with a more complete game. Basically, the guy that dominates the local weekly "race to 1 money tourney" is a small fish at the next level up. This is your personal "next level". Over time, you will realize that these *very good* players are not that godd after all.

So I am dammed if I do, dammed if I don't. If I don't run out, they will. If I try to runout, I will have trouble getting on the 2nd or 3rd ball. (Say leaving me straight in on the only ball I can see or 2 inches away from the only ball I can shoot.)

Any tips on advanced strategy?
Click to expand...

I'm just curious as far as your current level of play. Do you play leagues? APA? Do you have an APA rating?

Best advice I can give is to keep playing these guys. Pay attention when you are sitting in the chair and see how they mange the various layouts of the table. A lot of 8 ball games are won by good moves/strategy. Of course, there is always the match where someone will steamroll you (run out just about every rack), but until you play someone like that, it sounds like you need more experience in recognizing different situations/layouts and how to best deal with them.


Eric

*edit-I didn't read all the posts, sorry if I was redundant.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Don't mean to be pedantic, but I think this is an important point. We need to play the odds. If my opponent followed the above rule he would throw away many chance. He would knock back a 90% chance at going out, and leave me a chance at reducing the strength of his position, or perhaps even going out myself.

As I said before, 40% chance of going out is a reasonable cut off line to go for it in my books. Sometimes 25% is enough to make it worthwhile if the opponent has horrible balls and there's a good chance for leaving a decent safe during the out if it messes up.
Click to expand...
It seems to me that the right percentage depends on the stage of the game. Off the break, a 40% chance at the out seems like a reasonable threshold for trying the run. By, say, 3 balls into the run, I'd want that percentage to have increased (which it naturally would if I took care of a problem situation with one of those three shots.)

If I was down to 3 or 4 balls left and the 8, with only a 40% chance of getting out, I might well abort and look for a safety. At this point, continuing the run and failing to get out will often be a near certain loss against a good player -- so there might be a 60% chance of ending up a 90-10 underdog in the game by continuing.

The difference arises because at the start of the game when my chances are 40%, if I fail to get out then I might be only a 60-40 or 70-30 underdog (more clusters and traffic for my opponent) so I can be less conservative.

Overall then, the approximate rule would be something like


Try to Run out if [(Odds of Getting Out) > (100 - 10*Balls_Remaining)]​

Cory
 
Colin Colenso said:
The game is so complex it's hard to construct many absolute theorems, but here are few generalizations:

1. If when you are at the table, at there is a 40% or better chance at a top player getting out from there, which should be 80%+ of games after the break, go for the out. If it's less that 40%, play to improve your position, only pot your own balls if it helps you achieve this.

2. If you can't make those kind of outs as the average player cannot, better to spend your time practising, or just go for it anyway and deal with the consequences. If you're serious about your game, you've at least got to attempt to play it in the way the top players do.

3. If during an out, you fall out of 40% run-out position, it's usually best to look for some middle ground asap. Look for a shot that will help you to make the out next shot and leave the opponent something tough.

4. When these rules are not appropriate, due to complex clusters or positions, look for Expected Value (EV) as the poker players call it. Look for the shot that improves your overall position. Learning the myraid of moves here may take years, but much of high level 8-ball is determined by the success of stage 1.

Note: I chose 40% here as a rough guide. It means that 40% of the time you would win that game in that shot, and you would pick up 10% or more of frames if you mess it up somehow. Of course there will be 70% games where a safety may likely make it a 90% win chance, but those are the kid of situations that are hard to be generalised. Always be on the lookout to improve your EV.
Click to expand...

I heard 50% of this game is 90% mental ;)


Eric >loves Yogi
 
Cory in DC said:
It seems to me that the right percentage depends on the stage of the game. Off the break, a 40% chance at the out seems like a reasonable threshold for trying the run. By, say, 3 balls into the run, I'd want that percentage to have increased (which it naturally would if I took care of a problem situation with one of those three shots.)

If I was down to 3 or 4 balls left and the 8, with only a 40% chance of getting out, I might well abort and look for a safety. At this point, continuing the run and failing to get out will often be a near certain loss against a good player -- so there might be a 60% chance of ending up a 90-10 underdog in the game by continuing.

The difference arises because at the start of the game when my chances are 40%, if I fail to get out then I might be only a 60-40 or 70-30 underdog (more clusters and traffic for my opponent) so I can be less conservative.

Overall then, the approximate rule would be something like


Try to Run out if [(Odds of Getting Out) > (100 - 10*Balls_Remaining)]​

Cory
Click to expand...
Not sure I got you there Cory,

As my safety options usually drop the further I get into the out, the more I'd be tempted to attempt the out even if the odds decrease. eg. If I've got a 30% chance of making the 8-ball, with my opponent having 5 or so scattered balls around the table. I'm gonna go for it most likely.

But of course, situations are not always so simple. Hence Expected Value should be the main determinant. But as there are infinite table situations to consider, it's hard to generalize about them. But of course, if you're a 70% chance of going out, but a shot occurs where you can bump your ball into 99% out zone, leaving a safety which is 10% chance for the opponent to escape successfully from, you shoud take it.

But as a large percentage of games at the top level are basically clearance attempts first shot after break, it makes some sense to analyze a table in the terms I described I think. Which generally applied means go for the out most times you get half a chance.
 
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Eightball is a game of aggression, it is not a game for the timid. There are too many shot opportunities in 8-ball. Everytime you come to the table you must be prepared to run. A great exercise (practice) is to play the game "ball in hand" not just after a foul...but after EVERY miss too. Otherwise, everytime it is the start of your inning, you start it with ball in hand. With ball in hand you will approach the table looking for patterns of 2-3 balls to run. As you get better you will be looking to run all the balls.
Work on cueball positioning and EASY shots. Games are NOT mostly won by the player making "difficult" shots...games are mostly LOST by a player missing an EASY shot or position!
 
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