Advanced 8-ball strategy?
- Thread starter Billy_Bob
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I play in an APA and TAP leagues. APA is like the "B" division, where I am a SL5, and TAP is like the "A" division, where I am an entry level SL3.
It is always a rude awakening to go from APA to TAP. The overall strength of the shooters is so much different.
I must say that, if you have the right mentality, shooting with and just being around the better shooters will elevate your game more than any books, tapes or practice can do for you.
It is always a rude awakening to go from APA to TAP. The overall strength of the shooters is so much different.
I must say that, if you have the right mentality, shooting with and just being around the better shooters will elevate your game more than any books, tapes or practice can do for you.
My thinking was that if you're three balls into the run and haven't improved your odds then you probably failed to accomplish something important like a breakout or tight inside shape. So at that point, it's probably better to strategically punt.Colin Colenso said:
But I agree, that if I get down to the 8-ball and have a 30% shot, that's usually much better than a safety. But then again, in that situation you might often hit it pocket speed to hang it in front of some of your opponent's balls even if you miss, which is at least a partial safety. So I think I'll have to add a quadratic term to my formula, to give it an inverted-U shape, reflecting that once you're down to 1-2 balls, failing to get out will usually cause you to lose, so you might want to go more aggressive.
But those are just general rules. Good 8-ball strategy is about recognizing the exceptions to the general rules (i.e., your EV calculations):
* Leave a hanger that's blocking balls until later in the run, except when it's better to start with that ball.
* Clear one end of the table, then the other, except when going up and down the table works better.
* Break open clusters early, except when later plays better.
* and so on...
Cory
Summary(feel free to add)
Well there are a lot of good posts on this thread so I figured I'd put together a summary or checklist of sorts.
-at first glance if a runout is too difficult play safe
-plan your pattern from the 8 all the way back to your first ball
-try to break up clusters early in the runout
-try not to bump balls if it isn't neccesary
-allow for alternate balls if you get out of position for your pattern
-work from one end of the table to the other
-try to eliminate balls from the middle of the table and along the rails first
-when you play safe, anticipate your opponents counter safe
-(I don't agree with this one because this doesn't stop me from making my balls) leave hangers in the pockets for later
-Try not to plan your shape around balls you are about to:
a) use in a combination
b) carom off of
c) plan on breaking out
- Have fun it's just a game after all
- That being said, Go for the KILL!!!!!!!!!! Go hard or go home 8-ball isn't for the weak hearted
Well there are a lot of good posts on this thread so I figured I'd put together a summary or checklist of sorts.
-at first glance if a runout is too difficult play safe
-plan your pattern from the 8 all the way back to your first ball
-try to break up clusters early in the runout
-try not to bump balls if it isn't neccesary
-allow for alternate balls if you get out of position for your pattern
-work from one end of the table to the other
-try to eliminate balls from the middle of the table and along the rails first
-when you play safe, anticipate your opponents counter safe
-(I don't agree with this one because this doesn't stop me from making my balls) leave hangers in the pockets for later
-Try not to plan your shape around balls you are about to:
a) use in a combination
b) carom off of
c) plan on breaking out
- Have fun it's just a game after all
- That being said, Go for the KILL!!!!!!!!!! Go hard or go home 8-ball isn't for the weak hearted
I like Billybob's development items, as it is similar to mine, with slight variations.
1st level: Learn how to pocket balls one by one;
2nd level: You learn to take care of problem balls first, break clusters, etc. By then you understand that pocketing balls is a disadvantage unless you're going to run all the way out;
3rd level: You play both groups and you figure you can play strategically until you're ready to run out (before the other guy is);
4th level: This is brutal. You realize that you can leave your opponent's balls tied up or a kick or something of that nature, but accomplished players will still run out on you. It's almost as if you're back to level one! Run out, run out, run out! Here you should be able to not only break out clusters and move problem balls of your own group, but you should be able to create clusters for your opponent during your run, and further, when clusters have no apparent solution (no good break ball), you should be able to manufacture those. All of it during the course of the run.
Of course, that's not how it always goes, even at a high level. But basically, high level 8 ball is an extremely offensive game, not a strategic one. Strategy, and safeties should be played only as a last resort or you're not going to beat these guys.
1st level: Learn how to pocket balls one by one;
2nd level: You learn to take care of problem balls first, break clusters, etc. By then you understand that pocketing balls is a disadvantage unless you're going to run all the way out;
3rd level: You play both groups and you figure you can play strategically until you're ready to run out (before the other guy is);
4th level: This is brutal. You realize that you can leave your opponent's balls tied up or a kick or something of that nature, but accomplished players will still run out on you. It's almost as if you're back to level one!
Run out, run out, run out! Here you should be able to not only break out clusters and move problem balls of your own group, but you should be able to create clusters for your opponent during your run, and further, when clusters have no apparent solution (no good break ball), you should be able to manufacture those. All of it during the course of the run.Of course, that's not how it always goes, even at a high level. But basically, high level 8 ball is an extremely offensive game, not a strategic one. Strategy, and safeties should be played only as a last resort or you're not going to beat these guys.
Rule clarification, Please.
Here I'm a bit confused. Can I shoot at my opponent's group, provided I hit a ball from my group first? The WPA rules are not entirely clear with respect to this question.
3.37 and 4.11 seem to indicate that one can legally pocket an opponents ball (after hitter their own ball first), which allows one to continue with their inning. However, 4.13 indicates that the inning is over once one legally (or otherwise) pockets an opponents ball without also sinking a ball from one's own group, which is how I have usually played over the years.
lewdo26 said:
Here I'm a bit confused. Can I shoot at my opponent's group, provided I hit a ball from my group first? The WPA rules are not entirely clear with respect to this question.
3.37 and 4.11 seem to indicate that one can legally pocket an opponents ball (after hitter their own ball first), which allows one to continue with their inning. However, 4.13 indicates that the inning is over once one legally (or otherwise) pockets an opponents ball without also sinking a ball from one's own group, which is how I have usually played over the years.
Boy am I glad I asked this question!
Thanks for all the excellent replies. I suspected there was a bit more to this game than I thought, but now I know how much there is I don't know.
The "leave your balls on the table until you can runout" thing sounds good. I experimented with this yesterday and noticed that by leaving all my balls on the table, I had a lot of "ammunition" readily available. I could shoot these balls to block the 8 or shoot them to block my opponent's balls.
Then the "percentage of runout possibility" idea is excellent. I do this with individual shots - how likely I am to make the shot. So excellent idea to do this with runouts. What percentage chance do I have of running out and making the 8?
So I think what I will try; is to determine if I can runout or not. If yes, attempt to runout. If I mess up, then remember what caused me problems and practice those things. If I can't runout, then leave my balls on the table and cause as much difficulty for my opponent as I can. And I will then have lots of "ammunition" with which I can "attack".
So far as my skill level, I would say I am a "C" player. But a guy I can usually win against went to a large tournament and was told he was a "B" player. So maybe a "C" with elements of "B"?
Thanks for all the excellent replies. I suspected there was a bit more to this game than I thought, but now I know how much there is I don't know.
The "leave your balls on the table until you can runout" thing sounds good. I experimented with this yesterday and noticed that by leaving all my balls on the table, I had a lot of "ammunition" readily available. I could shoot these balls to block the 8 or shoot them to block my opponent's balls.
Then the "percentage of runout possibility" idea is excellent. I do this with individual shots - how likely I am to make the shot. So excellent idea to do this with runouts. What percentage chance do I have of running out and making the 8?
So I think what I will try; is to determine if I can runout or not. If yes, attempt to runout. If I mess up, then remember what caused me problems and practice those things. If I can't runout, then leave my balls on the table and cause as much difficulty for my opponent as I can. And I will then have lots of "ammunition" with which I can "attack".
So far as my skill level, I would say I am a "C" player. But a guy I can usually win against went to a large tournament and was told he was a "B" player. So maybe a "C" with elements of "B"?
Chris said:
The only way you can legally continue your inning is if you sink one of your balls. That being said, it is often stategically advantagous to pocket one of your opponents balls in the same shot as it may:
a) make it easier to run your balls
b) take away a stategic ball that your opponent needs to run his pattern.
In addition I often play safties that involve sinking an opponents ball after a carom or a combination.
Chris said:
I was at a tournament where one player was down to the 8 which was hanging on a corner pocket. (BCA rules)
The other player had most of his balls left on the table and kept shooting safeties - shooting his balls to block any shot on the 8 ball. Then the other player (who was down to the 8) started pocketing his opponents balls with each shot he got - An "intentional foul" giving his opponent ball in hand.
So it was a battle for this guy to gain access to the 8, and remove his opponent's balls (by pocketing them) so he would have fewer balls with which to muck up the works.
QUOTE" I like Billybob's development items, as it is similar to mine, with slight variations.
1st level: Learn how to pocket balls one by one;
2nd level: You learn to take care of problem balls first, break clusters, etc. By then you understand that pocketing balls is a disadvantage unless you're going to run all the way out;
3rd level: You play both groups and you figure you can play strategically until you're ready to run out (before the other guy is);
4th level: This is brutal. You realize that you can leave your opponent's balls tied up or a kick or something of that nature, but accomplished players will still run out on you. It's almost as if you're back to level one! Run out, run out, run out! Here you should be able to not only break out clusters and move problem balls of your own group, but you should be able to create clusters for your opponent during your run, and further, when clusters have no apparent solution (no good break ball), you should be able to manufacture those. All of it during the course of the run.
Of course, that's not how it always goes, even at a high level. But basically, high level 8 ball is an extremely offensive game, not a strategic one. Strategy, and safeties should be played only as a last resort or you're not going to beat these guys.
end QUOTE"
There's a real problem with that. It is my opinion that you should try to learn the startegy from the very get go. If you don't then you open yourself up to forming some bad habits in ways that you look at the table. Don't praactice a strategy game like eightball or one pocket to get better at playing pool in general, play a game like nineball or do drills.....
When you play eightball or one pocket or even straight pool, you want to play it with the RIGHT strategy from the very first time you play ideally so you don't train yourself to look at the table wrong, even if you can't execute the right shots correctly, this will prevent you from limiting yourself strategically later on when you do have a good enough stroke to play at that level.
1st level: Learn how to pocket balls one by one;
2nd level: You learn to take care of problem balls first, break clusters, etc. By then you understand that pocketing balls is a disadvantage unless you're going to run all the way out;
3rd level: You play both groups and you figure you can play strategically until you're ready to run out (before the other guy is);
4th level: This is brutal. You realize that you can leave your opponent's balls tied up or a kick or something of that nature, but accomplished players will still run out on you. It's almost as if you're back to level one! Run out, run out, run out! Here you should be able to not only break out clusters and move problem balls of your own group, but you should be able to create clusters for your opponent during your run, and further, when clusters have no apparent solution (no good break ball), you should be able to manufacture those. All of it during the course of the run.
Of course, that's not how it always goes, even at a high level. But basically, high level 8 ball is an extremely offensive game, not a strategic one. Strategy, and safeties should be played only as a last resort or you're not going to beat these guys.
end QUOTE"
There's a real problem with that. It is my opinion that you should try to learn the startegy from the very get go. If you don't then you open yourself up to forming some bad habits in ways that you look at the table. Don't praactice a strategy game like eightball or one pocket to get better at playing pool in general, play a game like nineball or do drills.....
When you play eightball or one pocket or even straight pool, you want to play it with the RIGHT strategy from the very first time you play ideally so you don't train yourself to look at the table wrong, even if you can't execute the right shots correctly, this will prevent you from limiting yourself strategically later on when you do have a good enough stroke to play at that level.
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This would only work with a lessor player. Shame on that guy for running his balls and missing the 8.Billy_Bob said:
Jaden, I understand. I'm not suggesting 8 ball strategy should be by-passed. Far from it. What I'm referring to is the fact that the toughest your opposition, the more risks you'll have to take, and the more offensively you'll have to play to be competitive.Jaden said:
Billy_Bob said:
In NY, based on your shot selection and strategy from your posts, you'd probably be a "D" player or an APA 3 to 4. I sounds like you are at the first level above "bar shooter", which is a guy that just shoots at any available ball, plays no or little position and only deals with problems (in 8 ball) til the end.
A "D" player is a not a beginner. Then again, ther are many, many, many levels above "D".
Eric
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Cory in DC said:
I like your thinking Cory, the more quadractic terms we can add to our pool formulas the better
...if only to scare off the uninitiated
I went through the same thing that you are going through. The good side of this is that you can always learn by playing those better than you, where as you can't by playing those you can beat. I went for about 4 months playing guys that just drill me. At the time i was ranked a 4. Now after those 4 months I am ranked a 6, and can sometimes win a game against them. I am still playing them and still learning. It can only make you better! Good Luck!
Billy_Bob said:
I'd be careful with the thing you said about "shoot them to block my opponents balls". If you mean leave your balls blocking the traffic lanes, so that several of his balls have few pockets they go in, then yes, it's a good idea. But if you mean shooting your balls to tie up with his balls, or to block pockets, it's not necessarily good, because it impedes your run-out as much as his.
Something I read months ago on this forum that Fred (Cornerman) wrote really made a difference in the way I think about 8-ball strategy. When you make your ball a pocket-blocker, it blocks you too, since combos are often not high percentage enough to shoot them in a must-make situation. When you use your ball to tie up his, you're creating a problem for both of you. When you control the table, you're at an advantage. When you create a cluster, you're giving the advantage to whichever player can resolve the cluster while maintaining control of the table. Why take the advantage out of your pocket and put it up for grabs?
Here's the "percentage" system I use: every shot you take (unless you're kicking at a ball just to stay alive) make sure you have a plan that's AT LEAST 80% to meet your GOAL. And your two acceptable GOALS are A) leave him a shot he's not going to make and not going to easily lock you up with, or B) run out.
If your goal is to run out, make sure that including whatever cluster-breaks you need to do, your run-out is 80%. If your goal is to lock him up, it doesn't have to be on that shot. Say you can't run out from here, but you can make the 4 breaking the 7 out of trouble, and lock him up on the next shot, with an 80% success percentage. Great! It's not a run-out, but you're resolving some problems and then playing safe, and if you play a good safe, that's a great move to make.
The last thing to remember, as others have said, is re-evaluate after every shot. On many of my outs, I start making balls planning to play safe at a certain point, but something I didn't plan happens, and on re-evaluating I see I can now run out. Way more often than that, I'm planning to run out, and I get out of position, and I have to re-plan toward a safe goal instead of a run-out goal. Just make sure you always have a specific and probable plan to achieve a goal, and you're a big leg up on the majority of pool players.
-Andrew
Eric. said:
Actually after breaking, I look at the 8 first, see which group is blocking the 8 if any, see if I can run out a group, and see if a group of balls has nasty clusters or if one group of balls is blocking the other group of balls. Then I choose the best group based on that information.
Then I look to see if I can run out that group. How can I do this?
If there are problem balls, I will try to fix them first thing.
Then lately per advice here, I will begin running in the balls in one particular area leaving the cue ball in a position for my next shot. Then after shooting in the balls in one area, move to another area. I can usually run about 4 or 5 balls but then will get out of position about 80% of the time after that.
And when I get out of position, it is because of stupid things. I don't look at my next shot from where I will be shooting it. So I don't see that I need to leave the CB in a certain spot to get on the shot after that. Or I forget I am shooting a thin cut shot and the CB goes flying off into outer space, and I should have shot it more softly. Or opposite - full ball hit and I should have thought about this and used a lot more speed. Just too many things to think about and I will sometimes leave out one factor, but getting better at considering everything lately.
Last night, for my first time ever being able to do this... I had a ball near a corner (8-ball money tournament) and my opponent had blocked the corner with his ball. Well I thought about 5 shots ahead and saw that I could get the CB between the blocking ball and my ball if I played my cards right. And I did just that. Managed to shoot in 5 balls and got the CB to go right where I wanted. (And to do this I needed to be straight in on the shot prior to this so I could shoot with a little bit of draw. And straight in on the shot prior to that so I could shoot a stop shot, etc.) Then I shot that ball into the opposite corner pocket. Then got the other remaining ball and the 8 after that.
I'm just beginning to sometimes be able to do stuff like the above, but it is difficult. Getting easier every day though. I took 2nd in the tournament and took 2nd the week before. (I have made 1st a few times before.) I can usually get into the money in small local bar tournaments. But never get into the money in larger tournaments which have plenty of "A" and "B" players.
I don't play 8-ball much, but here are some thoughts:
1. Solve your problem balls early. This means trying to get shape early to get your problem balls worked out.
2. Don't feel you have to stick to your original plan if you get out of line. Sometimes you miss position and you'll need to adjust your plan.
3. Don't feel you have to make a ball in any specific pocket. This is something I see a lot. Many times a table can be run if you make certain balls in pockets uptable.
4. Make sure the 8-ball goes! Break it out if it's in a cluster and you feel you can run out. Choose a key ball to make that will get you easy shape on the 8-ball.
- Samiel
1. Solve your problem balls early. This means trying to get shape early to get your problem balls worked out.
2. Don't feel you have to stick to your original plan if you get out of line. Sometimes you miss position and you'll need to adjust your plan.
3. Don't feel you have to make a ball in any specific pocket. This is something I see a lot. Many times a table can be run if you make certain balls in pockets uptable.
4. Make sure the 8-ball goes! Break it out if it's in a cluster and you feel you can run out. Choose a key ball to make that will get you easy shape on the 8-ball.
- Samiel
Billy_Bob said:
I hope you weren't offended, Billy Bob. I wasn't trying to put down your level of play.
All I was saying was thqt based on my experience and your posts, that is probably where your at, for the moment. As you get better,you will find that the players you once thought were "A" or semi-pro are, in reality, C+ players. I know that was my experience.
Placing 2nd is an accomplishment even if it is a race to 1 game, local bar tourney. Even if the competition isn't strong, you need to be able to bring your best game to the table and not play down to your weaker opponent.
Eric