I won 8 Ball APA regionals 04Pa.,06Md.past 2 times out of 3 years.. Missed 8 ball on hill other year.This is how to win. I played every sat morn with a champion Black ball player . You told it like him . I am going to check out all your past posts for more of the same thanks .
I won 8 Ball APA regionals 04Pa.,06Md.past 2 times out of 3 years.. Missed 8 ball on hill other year.This is how to win. I played every sat morn with a champion Black ball player . You told it like him . I am going to check out all your past posts for more of the same thanks .[/QUOTE]
MacGyver,
I'm having trouble understanding your post. First you title it 'Advanced Plays' and then you request that the most advanced advise is not wanted. As pictured in your wie layout the most advanced shot if your solids is to take the early breakout by pulling the cb into the cluster off the one ball or the four ball in the side. You say "were you can't run them" this layout is immenititly runable if you take the breakout that is staring you in the face. Maybe it is just my aggressive nature but I can't see any other stragegy here. Even for 'C' level play the best move is to go for the runout by getting your 7ball freed up so you have a swing at the runout.
Point of interest...as you show the table it is still open, solids have not been establisihed.
I just left a state 8ball tounament and I can almost say with certainty that 90 % of all the players (approx 1000 players) first shot with either solids or stripes would be to breakout that cluster and take your chances on the runout. Advanced 8ball is to keep your opponent on the bench...sorry if this comes across as flip.
I agree, I couldn't believe no one else thought the breakout at the beginning was an option. First of all, it doesn't look like you can hit enough of the 3 to 2-rail it. If you cut it, you can't hold it to combo the 12 in.
The 6 is not really too much of a trouble ball. Get anywhere on the lower end of the table and it goes in the corner.
And I really can't believe any advanced players are going to say shoot all the ducks first and deal with it later. You have to breakout as early as you can. They have an easy runout on the stripes (I thought it was open in my original post too), so if things don't work out well on the breakout, then start thinking of rearranging the furniture or ducking.
Yup. All depends on the exact layout, but my first shot would be to try to open the cluster. This isn't a "can't run" layout. It's not easy, but I'd try to make it easy on the first or second shot.
And I really can't believe any advanced players are going to say shoot all the ducks first and deal with it later. .
i hate to be that guy, but the 'example' table he showed was just that. he was looking for strategies, not 'which ball would you shoot?'. luckily, BillYards and Billy_Bob filled in the blanks...the rest of you are just wasting breath.
i hate to be that guy, but the 'example' table he showed was just that. he was looking for strategies, not 'which ball would you shoot?'. luckily, BillYards and Billy_Bob filled in the blanks...the rest of you are just wasting breath.
Eightball is a game of reevaluate after every shot. I gave the shot I would do first and only the first shot because it was a safety meaning that the next person to come up to the table is going to likely change the entire strategy so it's foolish to try and consider what might happen. I gave the best shot for a really good player considering everything. If you nudge up the six to the ten then you're screwing yourself. If you go for the runout you're taking a big risk because there's not really a breakup ball for the seven and it's not easy to get on the six.
By breaking out the seven and putting the CB by the fourteen or behind it. You leave the seven in front of his duck (twelve I believe) and you give him no real shot while you not only free up your seven you can then use it to get psoition on the six and use the six as the last ball on the eight.
I wasn't going to explain all of that cause I wanted to get you all to actually think.
This is what I would do at that point. It ties up his nine/10 and leaves the fifteen tied up while the eight can still be made up in the corner, it gives a good chance of a safety and it frees up your seven, Oh I changed the wei in the quote. but the green line needs to go to the back of the black line.
Don’t take this wrong, but IMO this has a huge potential of selling out.
A lot has to happen to safe guard against an opponent run out. I believe there are too many possibilities for the opponent by trying this safe. 1.) You could leave a shot on the 12 ball, possibly allowing a break up of the 9 and 10 ball. 2) You could leave a shot on the 14 ball in the side off the 4 ball. 3.) You could leave a shot on the 11 ball in the side. Or, 4.) You could even leave the 15 ball in the side.
IMO, when playing safe, the last ball I chose to hit would be the 7 ball.
MacGyver sayz:
(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
I guess I didn’t pay much attention to this. But he did give a specific example. Sometimes specifics are easier to discuss than generalities.
This should be a run-out table, right? After all, that's the 8-ball game. Take the 1 in the side with something extra on the cb to either break out your 6 (the extra something helps from playing self-defense at the foot end) or you may end up missing the 6 but will still take out at least the first rail ball and there's a good chance it will in turn take out the duck. Also on that, creating the action at the foot end may break out the 7. Keep the head end balls for either position plays or an end run. If necessary, you can use the 3 head end balls for either break outs or to hook the cb for a defense.
By looking at that table, I'd think I'd need to either run out or I will be ran out. Locking up balls is all fine and dandy, but that's simply underestimating your opponent. You either don't want him to shoot or you don't want him having a shot when he does get a turn. The last thing you want to do is hand _control_ of the table over to your opponent, which is exactly what you'd be doing by locking balls (and especially if you did it near a break out ball). If you're going to lock something up, leave the cb in an angle that he can't get a break out or far enough away that he'll have a hard time getting to the break out.
My first captain got pissy with me because I always pushed myself for the break outs and run outs. Of course, that's now why he'll no longer try to hustle me. The more you work on your break outs and run outs, the better you'll get. The point of the game is to knock em down, don't forget that (just remember table control).
I agree, I couldn't believe no one else thought the breakout at the beginning was an option. And I really can't believe any advanced players are going to say shoot all the ducks first and deal with it later. You have to breakout as early as you can. They have an easy runout on the stripes (I thought it was open in my original post too), so if things don't work out well on the breakout, then start thinking of rearranging the furniture or ducking.
Yup. All depends on the exact layout, but my first shot would be to try to open the cluster. This isn't a "can't run" layout. It's not easy, but I'd try to make it easy on the first or second shot.
Rackmsuckr and Conerman may well be right to try to run from here, because their skill levels allow them to feel confident about the run possibility, but as a general principle of 8-ball, which the original poster was looking for, I go with George Fels - he says not to try to run out until you know you will run out. (emphasis is George's)
...and I don't know that I will run out from here. I might, but the 6 and 7 are troublesome to me. I might make the 6 the long way up table if I get to the right spot, I could break out the 7 by starting with the 4 (I'm pretty confident in that) though I don't know where the 7 is going when I do, but have some safety valves uptable. However, breaking out the 7 that way also breaks out his 2 balls in the cluster and the 8 ball...The "skin the 7 and duck" option calls for some good touch to avoid a sellout here, though I DO like the idea of getting my ball out of the cluster, but leaving one of his...The 3 two-rails has some appeal too, IF it could be done leaving the CB in a disadvantageous location for my opponent - can it? I don't really feel comfortable with that, either...so can I move the 6 into a better place, and leave my opponent without a runable table...or...
So, I think the general principle of 8-ball is: - when I am not attempting to run out, I am evaluating options to
a) make it easier for me to run out on a subsequent opportunity, and
b) make it difficult/impossible for my opponent to run out so I will have that subsequent opportunity.
...and, I think pretty much everyone is working from those same principles, with specific differences coming from how they view their own capabilities at the table.
I agree with this. And I say TRY to run out if it is possible for you to run out. If none of your balls are blocked, try to run out. If you have learned how to leave position for your next shot, the more and more you do this, the better you will get. So go for it if it is possible.
And this would mean different things for different people as said above. Some advanced players *know* they can break out a ball and *know* they will have a shot after the breakout. Others can't do this and be guaranteed a shot after the breakout.
If you can't typically run in more than 3 balls at a time, then I suppose it might be better to shoot in a few balls from the get go, then you will not have that many left to run for your final run out.
And then there is the "opponent skill level percentage factor". If *you* can run 8 balls in one inning (session at table) BUT your opponent can't run more than 3 balls in one inning typically, you can take a few chances by opening things up. Then if you can't finish your run out, no problem since your opponent will most probably give you another chance to shoot.
For example I was playing a match against a player I did not know. I was being quite cautious, playing safeties, etc., assuming he would run out on me if given the chance. Well my team captain told me he knew the player and this guy couldn't run more than 3 balls. Told me to open everything up. So I did just that for every game. I would open everything up and run in a few balls - not worry about leaving him a shot. Then he would run 3 balls, get to the 4th and miss. Every time like clock work! Then I would run out since he was kind enough to get his balls out of my way. Every time I left him wide open I was quite nervous since I saw he had an easy run out. I could have run out if I was in his shoes. But I trusted my team captain. After the match, he said "See. I told you he couldn't run more than 3 balls!".
Doing the above can burn you as well. If you have not seen someone play for awhile and think they can't run more than 3 balls, you may find that they have been practicing and can now run 6 balls! So assume they can run out 8 balls if you have not seen them play for awhile.
I agree with this. And I say TRY to run out if it is possible for you to run out. If none of your balls are blocked, try to run out. If you have learned how to leave position for your next shot, the more and more you do this, the better you will get. So go for it if it is possible.
And this would mean different things for different people as said above. Some advanced players *know* they can break out a ball and *know* they will have a shot after the breakout. Others can't do this and be guaranteed a shot after the breakout.
If you can't typically run in more than 3 balls at a time, then I suppose it might be better to shoot in a few balls from the get go, then you will not have that many left to run for your final run out.
And then there is the "opponent skill level percentage factor". If *you* can run 8 balls in one inning (session at table) BUT your opponent can't run more than 3 balls in one inning typically, you can take a few chances by opening things up. Then if you can't finish your run out, no problem since your opponent will most probably give you another chance to shoot.
For example I was playing a match against a player I did not know. I was being quite cautious, playing safeties, etc., assuming he would run out on me if given the chance. Well my team captain told me he knew the player and this guy couldn't run more than 3 balls. Told me to open everything up. So I did just that for every game. I would open everything up and run in a few balls - not worry about leaving him a shot. Then he would run 3 balls, get to the 4th and miss. Every time like clock work! Then I would run out since he was kind enough to get his balls out of my way. Every time I left him wide open I was quite nervous since I saw he had an easy run out. I could have run out if I was in his shoes. But I trusted my team captain. After the match, he said "See. I told you he couldn't run more than 3 balls!".
Doing the above can burn you as well. If you have not seen someone play for awhile and think they can't run more than 3 balls, you may find that they have been practicing and can now run 6 balls! So assume they can run out 8 balls if you have not seen them play for awhile.
That can be a good strategy, although I try not to leave them totally open when I leave the table.
However, I have also seen that strategy backfire. Anyone can run 6 hanging balls.
I have seen them run into balls tying mine up, or accidentally freeing theirs or putting it into better position (like being on the end rail and now the ball is near a pocket) without realizing what they just did, until they think about that ball later (especially in 9ball!)
I have also seen a 'safe' cluster and they accidentally get on the short side directly in line with a pocket, where a 1/4" difference would have made it unmake-able.
I have seen them have no clue where the cueball is going, yet manage some kind of shape to attain an ugly runout.
I have seen them run into a ball after the 1st, 2nd or 3rd rail which completely stops them or slows the speed down for perfect shape on a tough ball, or conversely, run into a ball which diverts the direction and it lands somewhere totally unexpected, again in line to make a ball. This usually happens on the last ball or the 8 ball. Judging from their angle and speed, you would not expect them to have a good shot on their last ball, but, bingo, it happens.
I have seen them almost scratch accidentally and be totally in line with a ball where no one in their right mind would have played shape to almost scratch, yet that is the only way a ball of theirs goes into a pocket (again, usually on the short side, dead in).
And I have seen them fire in tough cuts like a heat-seeking missile and bank like Washington Mutual.
You know what they say about never assuming. I understand the gist of the question was not about running out, and of course, if you don't have a shot, you need to position your balls in front of the holes and take theirs out, and/or tie up balls. One way I like to do this is to take my ball off one of their blocking balls, (either directly or rail first) if possible, and it shoves their ball to the end rail (if you were shooting to a corner pocket on the inside of their ball).
But in the diagram, that situation is runnable and like I said, I favor the breakout early, then deal with the outcome if you can't get out from there. If there is at least one pocket for the 6 ball, then it is not really a trouble ball. Worthy of early consideration to get it out early, but it is definitely a ball in play.
Sorry for the late reply, but Steev was right on...
I was actually hesitent about posting the table as I thought people would only discuss it instead of the situation, but I felt it would be helpful to understand the situation I was talking about(i'll try to be more careful)
Here is an updated Wie to help better show the situations I am talking about.
assume its right after break, APA rules so I am definatly solids.
The arrows are showing the striped breakouts(also include the 13 for breakout into bottom side but no more arrows) and the A denotes the safeball, so please assume unless I do something extremely well, the opponent will breakout and runout.
The basic issue is that I know how to run out, and I know how to break out. I also know how to safety even enough to get BIH....
However, on the tables where I can't break out without most likely selling out, and getting BIH won't really help things, I am a loss at what to do...
This is the type of match that I lose most of the time... other situations I understand, but its when it gets very strategic I often lose.
I understand princples such as creating problem balls or not being the one to breakout a cluster first, I am very patient and I have won many games by using this strategy(keeping 3 balls on the table so I can hit them while my opponent keeps firing in balls only to sell out on a problem rail cluster).
My problem comes when they have very good breakouts with safe balls, and they are of the skill level to easily runout given the table, while even if I safetied.
So when discussing this table, what is the optimum strategy to win here assuming given free shots the opponent will make his breakout and run the table?
Also assume that you can get BIH from the 5-3 safety play, what do you do with BIH?
I like the strategy of rolling the 6 into the 10(and I think it might be the best one for this particular table), though I am worried about the breakout marked at B.
So one good strategy is driving one of your balls into theirs to create a problem cluster, preferably one that isnt going to be easy to breakout, so you can at least stop their run.
What would you guys with BIH on this table(assuming the 5-3 safety pays out)?
I am mostly looking for plays to make when a runout isnt possible even with BIH... but for now I guess I need to keep posting tables as its the only thing people like to reply to
in short, i'd follow the list billyards posted, or use billy_bob's 'goals'.
for that example (i know, i know) i'd want to push my balls into a favorable break shot, or make his 12. a lot of that would depend on where i could get the 5 to roll on the safety. there's a chance you could roll your 5 up against one of his stripes with the safe, as insurance against his run. then just keep hunting for the plays as they come. a lot can change in one shot.
...So when discussing this table, what is the optimum strategy to win here assuming given free shots the opponent will make his breakout and run the table?...
I wish I had an answer for what is best in this situation! (But I'm not that good of a player.)
And I know one thing, the better players (like APA 7's) always seem to do something which I am not aware of - don't realize what they are doing exactly until it is too late. Then I'm in an awful fix.
I know a few of these players do certain things on a regular basis. Some of them do what I call "locking the table". They will position the 8 so it is close to a corner pocket, then stick one of their balls between the pocket and the 8. Then what am I going to do? What can I do? They have got me basically. I can run in my balls, but that 8 is blocked by their ball.
When I turn the table back over to them, they easily "unlock the blocked 8" and run out.
It is as if they have a padlock and can easily "lock up shots" and they keep the key. They leave me with a low percentage combo or bank shot.
I think these players practice speed control for years and years so they can plop a ball in a nasty spot exactly. They can shoot it directly there, bank it there, or kick it there.
But then when I try to do the same thing to them, they are so good at position play, they can stick that cue ball between the blocking ball and the 8 and have an easy shot! Arg!
I'm not sure - against players of the caliber that you describe - that the safe using the 5 & hiding behind the 3 is all that safe, and that you get BIH as a result...
but that's still not necessarily a bad outcome either, because it sortof tempts the opponent into a tougher-than-it-might-appear shot, and if the opponent makes it, well then an otherwise blocked pocket just got opened (forcing opponent to take a duck is a positive development I think). And maybe you get that 5 to lock up the 14 causing a problem, and maybe you get the 5 to where I put it on the table - so you can sink it in the corner, but the 14 doesn't go...
...and if the opponent makes the 12, the position afterwards might be pretty problematic also - the 13 is the likely next target (assuming the 14 is blocked) - it won't go by the 2, it just will go by the 5 where I put it, but it is tight...
So, I'm still saying I'm not ready to run out, so I am looking to make my next opportunity better and / or cause problems so I get another opportunity... and, like all games you are trying to think ahead 3 balls / 3 shots anyway.
and yeah, the better players have shots and control of position, so they will be able to solve problems - its what makes them better. But, giving them problems still reduces their percentages and increases yours. Even great players make mistakes, you increase the chances of them making a mistake by giving them something difficult to deal with.
So what if I did get BIH? Geez, I fear the response from rackmsucker to my plan, but here goes - and I look forward to learning the error of my ways!
(assuming nothing else moved from the table above) I'm still not ready to run, so think I'd set up an attempt at banking the 6. If it misses, it will be out on the table later. If it goes, I probably need to take the 2 to get position to where I can skim the 7, freeing it and the 9, but leaving the 8 and 15 together. That gives the opponent 2 problems: the 8-15 and the 14-5, and I think I will get to shoot again...
The alternative to banking the 6 would be to send it into the 10, and the 10 into the 12, attempting to move the 12 out of the pocket, sink the 10, and leave the 6 in front of the pocket, capturing it for you. I like my chance with the bank better, but think this would be reasonable, too?
I won 8 Ball APA regionals 04Pa.,06Md.past 2 times out of 3 years.. Missed 8 ball on hill other year.This is how to win. I played every sat morn with a champion Black ball player . You told it like him . I am going to check out all your past posts for more of the same thanks .[/QUOTE]
I understand the gist of the question was not about running out, and of course, if you don't have a shot, you need to position your balls in front of the holes and take theirs out, and/or tie up balls. One way I like to do this is to take my ball off one of their blocking balls, (either directly or rail first) if possible, and it shoves their ball to the end rail (if you were shooting to a corner pocket on the inside of their ball).
