Advice for all you complaining up and comers.

[mongoose-]

Now this is what I have been saying for some time now. With the flurry of league play & a known handicap rating system as the APA players are lazy these days compared to times past. These league players for the most part don't want to work at their games they don't want their skill levels raised. Then you have the low skill levels that actually think they can beat someone because they get a spot. Pool is not what it use to be. There may be a lot of people brought into this sport by leagues such as the APA but very few of them will ever be pool players... I personally wish they would put their cutec cues in the cases and just go home & retire.

 

[paksat]

As a new pool player I have already learned that you don't get better by playing people who are worse then you. I am a beginner (whatever the lowest rank is I am lower than that I can almost promise you) but I learned growing up that you have to work and practice to get better at anything you do. Pool is no different. I have had my own table for 3 years now and just last year started practicing probably 7 hours a week on average. 10 years ago when I was messing around playing pool I would play a friend who use to win a lot of tournaments around Orlando. He kicked my butt every time we played. Usually he would break and run out playing 8 ball. Well after spending about 6 months practicing 7 hours a week I got the opportunity to play him again during Christmas. He beat me all three games but this time he would sink the 8 I only had 1 ball on the table or we were both going for the 8! That made me a lot more hungry. Next Christmas I will beat him! And it will be because I spent time on the table practicing. And of course reading AZB!

As you get more mature you will realize that you are playing the table, not the opponent. There's no reason that playing someone better then you should make you shoot any better; it's all in your head.

You will of course learn new patterns and what not to do. However, the only thing keeping you from shooting your A game vs a nobody is that thing called your mind.

It's why people play up and down to the competition. There's a girl on our team that will damn near run out when she plays me. But put her up against somebody that just started playing and she can't even make straight in shots.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Now this is what I have been saying for some time now. With the flurry of league play & a known handicap rating system as the APA players are lazy these days compared to times past. These league players for the most part don't want to work at their games they don't want their skill levels raised. Then you have the low skill levels that actually think they can beat someone because they get a spot. Pool is not what it use to be. There may be a lot of people brought into this sport by leagues such as the APA but very few of them will ever be pool players... I personally wish they would put their cutec cues in the cases and just go home & retire.

Let's not bash the league players. You do have to realize that the 23 handicap rule lends itself to sandbagging. Think about if you and all your good buddies started a team. Probably would not be able to play with each other after the first 4 weeks. 23 is pretty easy to get to, you need the novices to make amateur pool leagues work.

Cuetec is a major APA sponsor and they donate quite a bit of cues for memorial events and charity so although they may not be the best playing cues they do a lot of good things for people. I'll bet whatever you want to that Cuetec donates a 100 times the amount of cues that Barry Szam does. I'm not talking quantity either I'm talking retail value. Also feel free to try out some of the top league players in your area some time, I bet even if you win that you will see there is some great talent in these amateur leagues. Be good there guy.

 

[mongoose-]

Let's not bash the league players. You do have to realize that the 23 handicap rule lends itself to sandbagging. Think about if you and all your good buddies started a team. Probably would not be able to play with each other after the first 4 weeks. 23 is pretty easy to get to, you need the novices to make amateur pool leagues work.

Cuetec is a major APA sponsor and they donate quite a bit of cues for memorial events and charity so although they may not be the best playing cues they do a lot of good things for people. I'll bet whatever you want to that Cuetec donates a 100 times the amount of cues that Barry Szam does. I'm not talking quantity either I'm talking retail value. Also feel free to try out some of the top league players in your area some time, I bet even if you win that you will see there is some great talent in these amateur leagues. Be good there guy.

Just giving my opinion as I see it Mikey. And trying the top league players in "my area" LOL... won't happen as they know better. And as far as cutec donating that is good donations are always needed for events such as memorials... I only used their name in my post as I know they sponsor the American Donators Association.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Just giving my opinion as I see it Mikey. And trying the top league players in "my area" LOL... won't happen as they know better. And as far as cutec donating that is good donations are always needed for events such as memorials... I only used their name in my post as I know they sponsor the American Donators Association.

Fair enough fella. I got no idea where your area is but I can tell you there are some spots where the league guys can flat out play. Ill leave it at that. I'm not in any leagues anymore, but when I was making Nationals and doing well there was a good thing. I just don't like the time committment part of it now or I'd still be playing no doubt.

 

[Gregg]

Bottom line guys, please don't get off track. This has nothing to do with a fair system. It has everything to do with guys who want wins handed to them without paying their dues.

I don't get it; If I'm a lower skill level shooter playing a higher skill level shooter in a tournament, and I "win", beating the handicap system, so to speak, should I be ashamed of myself?

By my local hall ratings, I beat to a pulp an A- when I was a D-. It was a joke, he was so much the better player. I was outclassed by a mile. But I won, even though the better shooter didn't win, as it was handicapped.

What do you want me to do?

:wink:

 

[chin0]

How much do I have to pay? Give me a price jk

I totally agree. I have a few friends give me crap because I am geting better than them, (I am not a good shooter by any means) and they say it is all luck, but they also don't give me props for my practice and how hard I try and how serious I take it.

 

[mongoose-]

Fair enough fella. I got no idea where your area is but I can tell you there are some spots where the league guys can flat out play. Ill leave it at that. I'm not in any leagues anymore, but when I was making Nationals and doing well there was a good thing. I just don't like the time committment part of it now or I'd still be playing no doubt.

Kudos to ya Mikey. And I agree 100% there are very good league players out there. Has been threads before on the varience of quality of play between different areas of the country. I am in northeast Maine... isn't much here... there are some good players down to the central & southern part of the state... { I was referring to the majority of league players in general }.. next year we are looking at moving back to NH & get out of the sticks here... can't be soon enough. :grin-square:

 

[crawfish]

I don't get it; If I'm a lower skill level shooter playing a higher skill level shooter in a tournament, and I "win", beating the handicap system, so to speak, should I be ashamed of myself?

By my local hall ratings, I beat to a pulp an A- when I was a D-. It was a joke, he was so much the better player. I was outclassed by a mile. But I won, even though the better shooter didn't win, as it was handicapped.

What do you want me to do?

:wink:

That is in no way what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a guy that constantly is bit#@ing about his rank, all the while knowing he can play two levels above it. Reread the original post. I just meant let's not get this thread going into a "ranking" rant. My bottom line is to not play two days a week and come up on a guy who plays seven days a week and automatically think it's fair to go to four and him to eleven. Then, if he beats you outrunning the nuts, talk about being a three, then a two. When does it end? Practice and move up....not back.

 

[paksat]

Fair enough fella. I got no idea where your area is but I can tell you there are some spots where the league guys can flat out play. Ill leave it at that. I'm not in any leagues anymore, but when I was making Nationals and doing well there was a good thing. I just don't like the time committment part of it now or I'd still be playing no doubt.

Wut he said ^

A 9 in one part of the country might be a 6 in another or not even that.

Trust me, the 9's around here in middle florida... man it's dazzling watching some of these dudes.

 

[Complex13]

I feel your pain, crawfish. The current batch of guys we get in our weekly tournaments is a really good one, actually, but I am all too familiar with having to put up with the whining and complaining of guys who: a) never truly work on their games, b) won't bet two cents with the bulletproof nuts, and c) only want to play players who play worse than they do so they can boost their egos. Then they come in to a tournament, getting games on the wire from the guys who actually do work on their games and have paid their dues, and they b*tch constantly about who's ranked what, or who beat who that shouldn't have, or even a $10 or $20 entry fee for Christ's sake! It's like "Dude, man the f*ck up and just play pool! If you lose, go practice or get some lessons. It ain't rocket science." What's really bad is that it's generally been my experience that the older players are worse about this that the young, upcoming players are.

I get especially frustrated when someone approaches me and says "How can that guy over there be a 4? He just kicked a ball in and ran out on me!" At times I've truly felt like I was in a daycare, except with a bunch of kids who are like 50+ years old. The worst of them have no concept of what really great pool is, so they cling to stories about some dude who made a one-in-a-thousand shot on them 32 years ago, which in their mind elevates this guy (who nobody's ever heard of, BTW) to Mosconi-esque status. And then of course you have to hear this crap when you beat one of them; "Oh, you play pretty good, but you shoulda seen old Joe Blow play. One time I seen him make this shot..." What's worse is that this stuff puts a mindf*ck on the young upcoming players who, because of what some old dude who's been a C player for 40 years said, think that playing great pool is just about making the occasional God shot that people will talk about for years to come. So then they come to me for advice, and I have to break it to them that playing great pool is not about how many great shots you hit, it's about how few poor ones you hit, and what it really boils down to is a whole lot of really, really hard work, and probably lessons, to achieve great consistency.


Aaron

Reminds me of the old joke I told to Earl when he came through town with Archer.

Whats the difference between pool players and puppies?

Eventually, puppies grow up and stop whining.

 

[Rak9up]

I've played in Maine "Caribou" for a few years and I am currently one of those Middle of Florida players he talks about but I spent 3 years in the Phillippines.
You wonder why the phillipino's are so good. Walk into one of their poollhalls there's no whining league BS or handicapped tourney's. Just straight up be ready to bring it pool.

Theres a kind of hierchy in the poolroom where you played showed your skill level. Trust me an american walking into that room got no respect.
It was like when a guy with a 5 piece cue or a guy with a budwiser stick walking in and asks for action.... everybody around just drools.

I feel leagues are great for beginners say handicapps 1 thru 4. A good idea for getting new players excited and a place to learn. After that the leagues need a straight up redraft or design. Theres no incintive to move up whatsoever and the APA brags about being the highest paid venue in america for amateurs. Plus since poolrooms are known only to contain monks, virgins, statesmen, diplomats etc I'm sure there's no issue.

So lets try a little math
X=Dollars
Y=No incintive to move up
Z= Totaly Ethical Poolplayers

hmmm lets see

1,000,000(X) + Y
________________ = SANDBAGGING

z

 

[mongoose-]

I've played in Maine "Caribou" for a few years and I am currently one of those Middle of Florida players he talks about but I spent 3 years in the Phillippines.
You wonder why the phillipino's are so good. Walk into one of their poollhalls there's no whining league BS or handicapped tourney's. Just straight up be ready to bring it pool.

Theres a kind of hierchy in the poolroom where you played showed your skill level. Trust me an american walking into that room got no respect.
It was like when a guy with a 5 piece cue or a guy with a budwiser stick walking in and asks for action.... everybody around just drools.

I feel leagues are great for beginners say handicapps 1 thru 4. A good idea for getting new players excited and a place to learn. After that the leagues need a straight up redraft or design. Theres no incintive to move up whatsoever and the APA brags about being the highest paid venue in america for amateurs. Plus since poolrooms are known only to contain monks, virgins, statesmen, diplomats etc I'm sure there's no issue.

So lets try a little math
X=Dollars
Y=No incintive to move up
Z= Totaly Ethical Poolplayers

hmmm lets see

1,000,000(X) + Y
________________ = SANDBAGGING

z

Ahhh Caribou... I spent 2 years at the university of Maine at Presque-Isle many years ago. Nice place but very desolate up there. I use to play with Tiffany Nelson & her dad Dick some when I was there. I think she was around 13 at the time. Good kid & family. I also use to play a guy named Roger Barrier from up in Madawaska.. don't know if you knew him... he was the best player in that area years ago but haven't heard his name in years... then again I haven't been up to "The County" in a long time either as I had been living in NH for a long time.

 

[gunzby]

Good post

When I started playing leagues I hated being ranked anything lower than the highest rank attainable. I played and played and played to go higher and not lower. When I lost I got mad at myself and played more. When I was a 5 playing a 7 I wasn't happy winning 4-6 or whatever the race is because that just seemed like losing to me.

The local tourney around here is a handicapped tourney as well. I actually have no problems with it so long as everyone that is in it is honest about the rank they are, which I know doesn't happen.

I had a deja vu moment last week listening to a beginner getting ready to leave. He just started playing and is just dying to get better. He's now in the 8 and 9 ball league and I heard him say that he was going to be a 7 no matter how long it took.

 

[gunzby]

I never understood why anyone would sandbag to get or keep a lower rank anyhow. When I was 21 and just started playing in the leagues I felt like going up to a higher handicap was like obtaining another stripe.

 

[crawfish]

Good post

When I started playing leagues I hated being ranked anything lower than the highest rank attainable. I played and played and played to go higher and not lower. When I lost I got mad at myself and played more. When I was a 5 playing a 7 I wasn't happy winning 4-6 or whatever the race is because that just seemed like losing to me.

The local tourney around here is a handicapped tourney as well. I actually have no problems with it so long as everyone that is in it is honest about the rank they are, which I know doesn't happen.

I had a deja vu moment last week listening to a beginner getting ready to leave. He just started playing and is just dying to get better. He's now in the 8 and 9 ball league and I heard him say that he was going to be a 7 no matter how long it took.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Rep to you for having some nuts and desire.

 

[mongoose-]

Now that's what I'm talking about. Rep to you for having some nuts and desire.

Exactly crawfish... that is the way it should be. I have never understood why anyone would not want to show improvement in a sport it takes so much dedication to become better at.

 

[Gregg]

I never understood why anyone would sandbag to get or keep a lower rank anyhow. When I was 21 and just started playing in the leagues I felt like going up to a higher handicap was like obtaining another stripe.

You and I both. I want to become the best possible player I can be. Lessons, books, tapes, DVDs, audio cassettes, you name it.

But, I hate to say, but coming from a competitive league team, they would say that part of being a team player is keeping your SL down, or not above where it should be.

Heck, we had a guy who asked to be moved up for some reason, from a SL4 to a SL5, and as soon as our team capt. found out, you can bet he never shot another match for our team, ever again.

 

[crawfish]

You and I both. I want to become the best possible player I can be. Lessons, books, tapes, DVDs, audio cassettes, you name it.

But, I hate to say, but coming from a competitive league team, they would say that part of being a team player is keeping your SL down, or not above where it should be.

Heck, we had a guy who asked to be moved up for some reason, from a SL4 to a SL5, and as soon as our team capt. found out, you can bet he never shot another match for our team, ever again.

Really? I might kick your team captain in the yeenyang and quit. This is the reason (among many) I won't play league. Played one year. Enough.

 

[CreeDo]

I find that when I'm away from my table, comfortably in my armchair, I can defend rankings and handicaps and feel I can accept anything. When I'm actually at the table and the impossible happens (I get beat by a lesser player) then it all goes out the window and the ranking system becomes "total bullshít".

I remember having a lengthy argument with a league operator who had just started an APA league in our town. I'd recently lost to a 2 (as a 7). One or both of the losses came from an unfortunate shot where I tried a thin cut, the CB hits something, and the 8 gets kicked in early. I couldn't do it on purpose if I had 100 tries but it'll happen by accident every so often.

I bítched and whined at the guy mercilessly for like 20 minutes and he tried hard to explain the reasoning and why it's fair and the overall benefits of the system. I wasn't having any of it. Now I wish I'd kept my mouth shut. The league didn't do well and disappeared after one season, and in part I think it's because our room never got over the 'noob friendly' rules and handicapping.

We all take some bad beats at the table but the bottom line is that ranking and handicapping lets a larger mix of players compete with each other. It's no different from two players with different skill levels gambling with a spot. If you force novices to 'pay their dues' by getting trashed by better players then they simply won't participate in that tournament or league until their skills can justify throwing away the entry fee/dues. Doesn't mean they have no heart, just means they have common sense. Meanwhile participation drops so now I only have one possible league to play in instead of two. You also don't see people rushing in to sign up for the non-handicapped tournaments because everyone knows which 2 guys are gonna end up pocketing the cash.

I don't like people with bad attitudes and excuses either, I guess my point is that I hear better players complain about rankings far more than the amateurs.

Everyone should just shut up and trust in the system to make things fair even if there's an occasional glitch.