advice for hitting this draw shot?

[evergruven]

had two shots come up in today's session that I sometimes hit well, but today hit poorly
and I realized I'm just kind of winging it on them..for the draw I usually hit the same place on the cb, but not as firm
I've experimented with hitting the draw higher up and more firm, but I don't gravitate towards that way..should I?

any advice appreciated..enclosing an 8-ball diagram of the draw shot that I ended up getting hooked on
I also missed position on a similar shot with follow, too long for force follow- I think I just hit too high

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/1b298.png

 

[FranCrimi]

My preference is to hit the cb as low as I comfortably can and adjust the speed (whenever possible.) Sometimes the shot is too short and you have to adjust your aim point to a higher point.

I think this distance is one of those borderline shots where you could go either way. It all depends on how the cloth is reacting. If the cloth is very reactive and you're drawing the ball very easily, then moving your aim point a bit higher would probably be the better choice. Keep in mind that just because you're hitting it higher, you don't necessarily have to hit it firmer. In this case, the adjustment is tip placement, so you usually don't have to adjust both speed and tip placement.

But if you do prefer to aim lower and adjust the speed, then on a fairly close shot like this, look for the first spot on the way back that you would accept for position on the 8 ball --- in this case I think the head string line would be the first. Then strive for that. Draw is forward roll in reverse, so it's hard to predict exactly where the cb will come to a stop when it's rolling. If you get a few extra rotations, as seems to be your tendency, then you will still be in the zone to pocket the 8.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Any firmness/thrust/"oomph" gives the cue ball forward momentum that fights that draw spin. That's why the jab/follow-through more/hit it more agressively draw advice rankles.

You need to have precise draw in two ways, perfectly straight lines for the cue ball, accurate distance back from impact. Softer grip/softer strokes are one key.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I'm in the same boat as you and Fran in terms of preferring to cue low and adjust speed as my standard approach. Here though, with the 11 looming and a severe punishment for overcooking it, I will err on the underhit side and likely cue high enough where I'm not likely to get a lot of action should I accidentally overhit the shot bc of pressure or any other reason really.

'Winging it' isn't all that bad. It's just another way of saying you feel out the shot and produce the type of effect you are looking for. With enough reps, this feel develops nicely and can be quite reliable. I had a few shots in a recent match against an sl7 where I had to move the ball 3inches back, 6inches back, a foot, and managed to land the ball exactly where I needed it in every instance. He asked me how I was able to control that draw so precisely and my answer wasn't much different than 'winging it'. I just hit them so many times that I'm a favorite to pull them off. Obv I won't get it right every time, but my arm knows what to do at this point so I just get out of its way and let it do what it needs to do to meet my intention for the shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Any firmness/thrust/"oomph" gives the cue ball forward momentum that fights that draw spin.

Hitting harder adds forward momentum and spin. With a straight draw shot (as pictured) the CB's forward momentum is stopped by the OB - so no "fighting". Only the increased spin matters.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

I am not an instructor, so
I am curious on the thoughts from the experts, on my approach to this type of shot…….,

Determine how I would hit a stop shot at this distance and then lower my tip proportionally for the distance of draw I’m looking for
For me
one tip. Below a stop Shot is about a diamond of draw.
I like this approach because I practice stop shots so much. I have a good feel for the hit and tip placement
so the only thing I’m changing is my tip placement
I’m not changing speed for every distance.
Your thoughts

 

[Bob Jewett]

I suggest you practice your draw distance accuracy. Set up an easy straight shot into the side pocket. Make your goal to draw the cue ball back to the side rail and freeze it. Vary the distance of the OB from the pocket and the distance of the CB from the OB. I think if you put in a few hours at this you will learn the best way for you to hit the shot. Repeat the practice, perhaps with longer distances, for half an hour each week.

But before you do that, you should get someone to look at your fundamentals. Maybe I lost track, but I don't recall that you have ever had in-person instruction.

 

[Bob Jewett]

As for the shot shown, with a little bit of angle, I might try to bump the 11. That might require cheating the pocket. That requires shooting softly. That requires a very low hit to get the draw needed. If bumping the 11 is not possible, I'd have to rely on speed control. On an unknown table, hitting harder and higher will be more consistent because you are less at the mercy of the cloth.. On a known table, I prefer to hit lower.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I am not an instructor, so
I am curious on the thoughts from the experts, on my approach to this type of shot…….,

Determine how I would hit a stop shot at this distance and then lower my tip proportionally for the distance of draw I’m looking for
For me
one tip. Below a stop Shot is about a diamond of draw.
I like this approach because I practice stop shots so much. I have a good feel for the hit and tip placement
so the only thing I’m changing is my tip placement
I’m not changing speed for every distance.
Your thoughts

This is a great approach. Using stop shots and natural rolls as the core reference points for your position game is an approach that can't be beat. That said, you can hit a firmer stop shot just below center here or a very soft hit with lower tip position to achieve the same end result. But in either case, that is your reference point....either adjust the tip lower and keep the speed the same, or keep the low tip position and adjust the speed.

Having a reference like a tip below stop is a diamond of draw is a powerful weapon to have that will allow you to strike these types of shots with confidence under pressure.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Hitting harder adds forward momentum and spin. With a straight draw shot (as pictured) the CB's forward momentum is stopped by the OB - so no "fighting". Only the increased spin matters.

pj
chgo

Theoretically yes, practically only if technique is quite strong. Not everyone has my friend Mike Massey's touch, talent and time in applying.

Most of my students get more draw, and more accurate cue ball distance, with a gentler grip and softer strokes (for an object ball over a short-to-medium distance from the cue ball).

Also, jumped cue balls, miscues, too much draw or too little, are just some of the issues with less than perfect technique and the canard advice of wrist snap, hit harder and lower, etc.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Any firmness/thrust/"oomph" gives the cue ball forward momentum that fights that draw spin.

Hitting harder adds forward momentum and spin. With a straight draw shot (as pictured) the CB's forward momentum is stopped by the OB - so no "fighting". Only the increased spin matters.

Theoretically yes, practically only if technique is quite strong.

"Technique" has nothing to do with the simple fact that forward momentum does not "fight" draw spin on a straight shot. In fact, since backspin RPMs increase with forward momentum, it actually increases draw.

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

I am not an instructor. Imagine the CB just floating along until it hits the OB. You basically want it hovering on the cloth, make sure your stroke is level as can be and follow through. Depending on your stance you may or may not feel your elbow drop. When I stroke a draw shot nicely I feel an elbow drop. Is it a robot like textbook stroke? Nope, but it works. It's very consistent and easy for me to control so I don't sweat the elbow drop. I think it's just a natural occurrence. (Most instructors say an elbow drop is bad, just FYI)

A good drill that won't make you hate life: http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf

The "C" exercises are directly related to draw, but all will help with CB control, it's a really good drill, it was shared with me here on AZ and I feel it was a great help. The drills also help you with the difference between shot types and how to hit them.

 

[BC21]

had two shots come up in today's session that I sometimes hit well, but today hit poorly
and I realized I'm just kind of winging it on them..for the draw I usually hit the same place on the cb, but not as firm
I've experimented with hitting the draw higher up and more firm, but I don't gravitate towards that way..should I?

any advice appreciated..enclosing an 8-ball diagram of the draw shot that I ended up getting hooked on
I also missed position on a similar shot with follow, too long for force follow- I think I just hit too high

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/1b298.png

Not that this is a solution to your draw problem, but be sure to look for all options before deciding your shot.

In this sketch, for example (maybe it wasn't exactly like this in real life), the 8ball goes in the opposite side pocket. So, simply rolling forward, maybe bumping the 12, will leave an easy shot in the side.

If there was no open shot for the side, and you didn't like rolling the cb for a shot on the 8 in a corner pocket at the other end of the table, then drawing the cb back is probably the best shot.

Practice those little 1 foot draw shots until you get a great feel for them. That's the best way to develop consistency with draw shots between just a couple of inches and about a foot or so.

For this particular shot, I would only draw it back about 5 to 8 inches, leaving a fairly easy shot on the 8, very close to a halfball aim. This avoids the potential of getting hooked by the 11 or bumping the 11 too far off center and leaving yourself a tough shot on the 8, or no shot at all.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Depending on your stance you may or may not feel your elbow drop. When I stroke a draw shot nicely I feel an elbow drop. Is it a robot like textbook stroke? Nope, but it works. It's very consistent and easy for me to control so I don't sweat the elbow drop. I think it's just a natural occurrence. (Most instructors say an elbow drop is bad, just FYI)

only 4 of the 16 in the Premier League Pool this week don't drop their elbow (SVB, Melling, Konrad, Seo). 'most instructors' will have to come around to what pros are telling them, which is the same thing you just said. It is a natural occurrence once a certain speed is produced but can still be very consistent and isn't something to fuss about. Tho to be fair at the low speed required for the shot in question in this thread, it's possible less than half would drop their elbow. Certainly Alex, Sanjin and Alghamdi wouldn't tho they drop at firmer speeds.

 

[evergruven]

But before you do that, you should get someone to look at your fundamentals. Maybe I lost track, but I don't recall that you have ever had in-person instruction.

hi bob, I took a two hour lesson back in november, but I don't know how revealing it was about my fundamentals
good reminder tho, I have it recorded..I'll check back in with it, see if I can't learn/affirm anything

when I went back and practiced the shot, I tried running into the 11 with some success..I think trying to do that helped me gauge draw speed

Not that this is a solution to your draw problem, but be sure to look for all options before deciding your shot.

In this sketch, for example (maybe it wasn't exactly like this in real life), the 8ball goes in the opposite side pocket. So, simply rolling forward, maybe bumping the 12, will leave an easy shot in the side.

hi brian, I had looked at the 8 in the side, but playing with the 12 felt dicier to me than drawing back
good call and good advice tho..I always try to keep my peepers peeled for multiple shot options

thanks all for the replies!

 

[BC21]

hi brian, I had looked at the 8 in the side, but playing with the 12 felt dicier to me than drawing back
good call and good advice tho..I always try to keep my peepers peeled for multiple shot options

thanks all for the replies!

I think it's easier to control speed/distance and accuracy when rolling the cb, rather than using draw. So, anytime there's a choice of rolling for position or drawing for position, rolling is usually the better option.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

"Technique" has nothing to do with the simple fact that forward momentum does not "fight" draw spin on a straight shot. In fact, since backspin RPMs increase with forward momentum, it actually increases draw.

pj
chgo

I did not and do not dispute your facts regarding physics. However, many players would benefit from softer draw strokes over most distances.

I did not say or imply that technique on softer strokes enhances draw, rather that most players who hit draw shots hard, hit them far too hard, and struggle with distance for the cue ball, straight strokes, etc. Need to draw precisely nine inches straight back off the o.b., not ten or eight? Soft stroke.

Thanks.

 

[Ratta]

Not that this is a solution to your draw problem, but be sure to look for all options before deciding your shot.

In this sketch, for example (maybe it wasn't exactly like this in real life), the 8ball goes in the opposite side pocket. So, simply rolling forward, maybe bumping the 12, will leave an easy shot in the side.

If there was no open shot for the side, and you didn't like rolling the cb for a shot on the 8 in a corner pocket at the other end of the table, then drawing the cb back is probably the best shot.

Practice those little 1 foot draw shots until you get a great feel for them. That's the best way to develop consistency with draw shots between just a couple of inches and about a foot or so.

For this particular shot, I would only draw it back about 5 to 8 inches, leaving a fairly easy shot on the 8, very close to a halfball aim. This avoids the potential of getting hooked by the 11 or bumping the 11 too far off center and leaving yourself a tough shot on the 8, or no shot at all.

In a match i would go for a simple stopshot- that s it. This gives me a clear shot on the 8. Never run in trouble if there s no reason for it. Better a clear simple quarterball hit instead of being hooked

 

[FranCrimi]

I am not an instructor, so
I am curious on the thoughts from the experts, on my approach to this type of shot…….,

Determine how I would hit a stop shot at this distance and then lower my tip proportionally for the distance of draw I’m looking for
For me
one tip. Below a stop Shot is about a diamond of draw.
I like this approach because I practice stop shots so much. I have a good feel for the hit and tip placement
so the only thing I’m changing is my tip placement
I’m not changing speed for every distance.
Your thoughts

Cloth conditions will affect the consistency of your theory. For example, if it's raining outside and the cloth is damp, your normal stop shot tip placement might not be affected because although the cb may slide more on the damp cloth, it won't change the result of your stop shot. However, dropping down a tip to get one diamond draw on a damp table probably won't be enough. In that case you would either need to increase speed, which could endanger the ball pocketing aspect, or place the tip lower than you calculated --- and often times, even both.

The opposite holds true for a newer cloth. Although your normal tip placement may be adequate for a stop shot, you may find on a newer cloth that the cb will draw back farther than you expect.

There are other cloth conditions that affect draw shots as well, like cloth that became loose over time, or not pulled tight enough at installation. Worn cloth, nappy cloth, the list goes on....

If you can find a way to add and subtract based on cloth conditions it may work, but nothing beats feel in this type of situation. Learning to develop your feel for shots in varying conditions is really the more reliable way to go.

 

[bbb]

Thanks for the reply fran