Advice for the stubborn player

[firetrain]

(Please ignore if I posted this already...having comp issues)

Hey all,

I have a friend that started playing pool just over a year ago. He quickly became a Tap4 handicap, but has stayed there for a full year. He has two major flaws in his game: 1) His Stroke 2) His Thinking

We are working on his stroke and it is definitely getting better. More fluid and less jerky. BUT I need some advice on how to convince him that he needs to play SAFE when it is completely obvious that he should.
He will try and bank his way out of everything, he will sink balls that were potentially keeping the other player from running out even though his balls are tied up, etc. He still insists today that "Pros don't play safes, I want to get to the point in my game that I don't need to go safe"

When we practice I consistantly tell him when to go safe, and we argue for a bit and then he does the wrong thing about 60% of the time. If he does go safe and I get out of it, he reinforces to himself that safeties are a waste...

1) Any advice you can offer? other then kick him, or forget him (because that is where my head is at right now)
2) Any good videos either youtube or purchaseable that would help reinforce the value of safety play
3) Any good articles on the web that address this style of thinking

Thanks for your help!

 

[KRJ]

Only playing a year, and he is this stubborn and refuses to learn?? not really sure you can "change" him... he needs to keep getting his arse kicked in on the table until he realizes something is not "right"

Of course, when you keep coaching him at matches, and he does not take your advice and loses yet again, he might start thinking differently

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

(Please ignore if I posted this already...having comp issues)

Hey all,

I have a friend that started playing pool just over a year ago. He quickly became a Tap4 handicap, but has stayed there for a full year. He has two major flaws in his game: 1) His Stroke 2) His Thinking

We are working on his stroke and it is definitely getting better. More fluid and less jerky. BUT I need some advice on how to convince him that he needs to play SAFE when it is completely obvious that he should.
He will try and bank his way out of everything, he will sink balls that were potentially keeping the other player from running out even though his balls are tied up, etc. He still insists today that "Pros don't play safes, I want to get to the point in my game that I don't need to go safe"

When we practice I consistantly tell him when to go safe, and we argue for a bit and then he does the wrong thing about 60% of the time. If he does go safe and I get out of it, he reinforces to himself that safeties are a waste...

1) Any advice you can offer? other then kick him, or forget him (because that is where my head is at right now)
2) Any good videos either youtube or purchaseable that would help reinforce the value of safety play
3) Any good articles on the web that address this style of thinking

Thanks for your help!

I'll assume you're talking about 8ball. If that's the case, part of the problem here is, the pros don't play safe in 8ball very often. On the pro-level, players attempt to run-out nearly every game. With that said, there are "busted run-out" attempts where a player might break, make a ball, run down to the 8 (or his last ball) and miss. This often creates a scenario where the incoming player can do anything they want and still win the game so they might play a few defensive shots to break-up clusters and move balls into better position.

I would go through youtubes of professional 8ball matches and look for some busted runs. If you can't find any, you'll probably have to use 9ball as your example since defense in 9ball is a religion every 9ball player lives by.

 

[Matt]

He still insists today that "Pros don't play safes, I want to get to the point in my game that I don't need to go safe"

If he continues to insist that pros don't play safe, I wouldn't bother trying to help. All of the pros have excellent defensive games. You don't see many defensive battles between the pros because the initial safety is good enough to get control of the rack.

 

[cardiac kid]

Best advise, get the person out of the league. Start re-teaching basic fundamentals. If a player has no stroke, the chances of getting better are slim to none. If they demand to play in the league, find someone else to coach them while at the table.

As far as suggesting safety play, we have lots of players like that in all three league systems I play in (BCAPL, VNEA and ACS). Best cure? Every time YOU practice with them, play them safe until the person learns why you do it or quits you in disgust. See myself in your mirror about twenty years ago. Started to play this local guy in small events whose favorite saying was "safe shot my friend, safe shot". He got me so angry I finally learned he was right, not a "dick". Helped to change my bar box game. As I've told my fellow teammates for years, in my opinion, "the most powerful shot in pool is a well executed safety".

Lyn

 

[chefjeff]

Ask him this question:

Do you want to shoot this shot so your opponent wins or so you win?

And follow with:

If you're going to shoot it so your opponent will win, why not just pot the 8 now and be done with it?

I have basically asked my opponent that after I've safed and he got mad. It's funny to line up the 8 ball to shoot it and he stops me.

Jeff Livingston

 

[rrich1]

Has he read any books? Play your best 8ball has tons of safeties made in pro games. Show hi they play safe.

 

[zpele]

High level barbox play does not coorespond directly to high level 9foot play.

I'm guessing you are playing on bar boxes and in general there tend to be way more clusters for the obvious reasons (smaller table, bad breaks, etc.). In many of these cases it is generally a good idea to play a safe if it gives you an advantage.

Explain to him that his balls are not his enemies... they are his tools. For every ball he gets rid of he is getting rid of a tool. If he cannot run out there is no reason to get them out of the way of your opponent.

If he doesnt agree just let him get his behind kicked by a few safety players.

 

[bdorman]

IMHO if he's been playing more than a year and doesn't accept the value of safety play, he's not going to. At the pool table he has an aggressive "go for it" personality, and that rarely changes.

It's not a "doesn't understand" kind of problem. A couple of guys I play with are the same way. I'll win rack after rack from them because I get BIH after a safe. But they'll shoot from some length-of-table bank shot when they've got a great safe. Even when I've dogged the 8-ball and they could tie me up in knots, they don't because they want to pocket a ball.

You can't teach common sense.

 

[decent dennis]

Anybody that won't play safe when warrented ,doesn't want to win,therefore is not a team player.

 

[LHP5]

Real easy. Gamble with him (or just play for something other than money). Safety him to death. Get ball in hand. Run out. Repeat. He'll learn sooner or later that ducking can still be winning.

 

[Cdryden]

Is he the type that lets his ego get in the way? I see this alot in beginners, they think they can make the low percentage shot and are willing to sacrifice everything to do it. Sure it looked cool, but then you lost because you didn't play it smart.

It can be very hard to get a person over this hump. If you can impress upon him the long term benefits of playing smart vs. the short term shot that looked cool than you've got him on the right path.

But for me a well played, crippling safety is better than a 3 rail kick shot any day.

Here is how I taught a person on my league team that had the same problem. He kept going for the shot when he should have ducked. A guy asked him how he was doing against me and he said "I get almost all my balls off the table every game, but he keeps getting these lucky leaves and I don't get a shot at the eight". I got him to understand how easy it was to beat a player like him that clears the traffic for me. It finally clicked and he is on his way to being a much better player now.

Some people get, some don't.

 

[waylander]

I've got a friend that doesn't play shape very well and certainly doesn't know how to play a safety shot even when he knows he should. I asked him why he won't take the safety and his reply was that he felt it was like "cheating" or "not fair play". I think this attitude is actually pretty common. While we all play to win some have this "play fair" streak in them.

The point of the game is not only to sink your own balls but also to prevent your opponent from sinking theirs. It's defensive play not unfair play.

 

[Banks]

We are working on his stroke and it is definitely getting better. More fluid and less jerky. BUT I need some advice on how to convince him that he needs to play SAFE when it is completely obvious that he should.
He will try and bank his way out of everything, he will sink balls that were potentially keeping the other player from running out even though his balls are tied up, etc. He still insists today that "Pros don't play safes, I want to get to the point in my game that I don't need to go safe"

When we practice I consistantly tell him when to go safe, and we argue for a bit and then he does the wrong thing about 60% of the time. If he does go safe and I get out of it, he reinforces to himself that safeties are a waste...

1) Any advice you can offer? other then kick him, or forget him (because that is where my head is at right now)
2) Any good videos either youtube or purchaseable that would help reinforce the value of safety play
3) Any good articles on the web that address this style of thinking

Thanks for your help!

He may get better at shooting, but his game will still be crap. He won't know as well when he should play safe and even when he does, he'll have had so little practice doing it that he'll screw it up so often he will think it isn't worth it.

Have him play some stronger players that'll punish him every time he tries something stupid. When I was starting, I didn't know enough to not go for many banks, but at least I had a pretty good idea of where the CB was going many times.

The pros don't play as many safeties, but they also don't take as many low percentage(read:stupid) shots. If they're going to open something up, they're thinking they can run it out. He's just doing it because he wants to be able to run it out.. sounds like he doesn't run out very often.

Tell him to wave $20 around at a tournament. He'll find out real quick that the better players do what they should to win, not always what they want. Besides, his best chance at winning is having another chance at the table.. not making things easy on his opponent. If he wants to be a runout player, tell him it's easier to do with ball-in-hand.

As for the "pro" stuff.. if you're going to try to emulate the abilities of the top .001%, be prepared to lose.. a lot.

 

[Bohemyth]

ask him what he thinks his odds of making a bank shot are, and have him make 20 and see how many fall. i always try and tell my players if odds are your not gonna make a shot. dont take it. play D and give your opponent an even harder shot, good chance you might get ball in hand which is a huge improvement from the low percentage shot they're gonna miss.

 

[CreeDo]

This is a psychology question, not a pool question, so IMO forget any advice about showing him something at the table or watching pool-related videos. The problem is his mindset, not anything he does at the table.

In a nutshell, he's not listening to what you have to say... he either doesn't believe it, doesn't respect your opinion, doesn't understand it, or is simply making an excuse to do what he feels like doing anyway.

The last one is very common and kind of a bitter pill to swallow. Those of us who liked pool enough to put work into it, can't fathom the mindset of someone who simply will not work to get better. But those players exist and there's no curing their lack of drive. They will look at a shot, decide "I wanna bank that ball" in about 3 milleseconds, then pretend to listen to all your arguments about why banking the ball is a stupid shot. Then they will make up some halfassed justification before banking it anyway.

If you think there's hope for this guy, but he just honestly doesn't believe you, it might be that he doesn't deep down believe you're much better than him. If this is a case of an APA5 teaching a TAP4, then maybe he needs to hear it from a 7 or a 9 before he swallows it.

 

[abs]

I can completely empathize as I've had a couple friends/teammates I've gone though this with, and another one I who's just joined my 9-ball team I'm dealing with. I'm just a hack player, but I play well better than average and often help lower skilled players with their games; some of them seriously want to get better, but others say they do but don't bother to take advice (freaking egos, I swear).

As others have noted to one degree or another, there is only so much you can advise and argue about before you and your friend get annoyed with each other. If they don't want your help or won't accept your advise, you can't force them to. Instead, I prefer to go the tough love route.

My solution is that I just stop offering advice and play, but then I will go out of my way to play my top game when I practice with that person. After never winning a game, evenually they will ask me or someobody else for help to improve their game, or they will just go play an easier player. If the former, great they've got their motivation. And if the latter, that is fine too because not everybody wants to play seriously, at least I know not to spend my time giving them advise.

 

[obclassicut]

I'm going to offer a different perspective.

Stop trying to teach him. He will likely get sick of it pretty soon because you ride him to change his game all the time.

Seriously, you sound like a really annoying teammate. You are playing a handicapped league, correct? Don't worry about him improving--that is the point of handicapped leagues, everybody gets to suck for as long as they want.

I used to play a bunch of competitive foosball. I was in a league and in doubles tourneys at least three times a week for a couple of years. I was newer than a lot of players, so they would give me all kinds of tips, in between every goal, they would tell me what to do differently. It got frustrating as hell. Then I met Mike, he returned to foos after a few year sabbatical and drew me his first time back. We were playing and I expected to get no advice--he was rusty and playing goal for me. In our third game, first match he leans over to me and says one thing. That was all the advice he gave me all night. Mike and I played much better than we should have together and that is a big reason why--he didn't try change everything I did.

You've told the guy often enough, dwelling on it will likely ruin the friendship.

dld

advice involved with a pool table is more vital than advice affiliated with foosball. I have some up and coming novice students(friends) who have developed there game in short order from there previous experience with pool and my friendly advice. I would not be able to do the same with a novice foosball player since the conscious mental game involved isn't the important factor in who is victorious. .. A novice foosball player doesnt need advice as badly as a novice pool player does.... much more involved with pool than just hand eye coordination.. Pointless rant, playedd enough pool for the day, lol. Unless......

 

[Stones]

I have one of these boneheads on my local league. Wants to run out everytime he steps to the table.

Another good player in our league started this guy gambling about a year ago. The guy has been a meal ticket for him. Never hits him hard, just nibbles at him week after week.

I felt sorry the guy and pulled him aside. Tried to teach about safety play and critical thinking. It was a total no go.


After three weeks working with him, the guy tells me his goal is to "GET RESPECT" around town and wants to be known as a "NAME PLAYER"!

That's when I quit. Then, I figured why let this other good player get all the goodies in his wallet?

Being an ex-road player, I'm not going to knock the good player's action with this guy.

Tonight, got him playing dollar on the five and ten, in a ten ball ring game. Won seventy off of him and about thirty off the other guy that uses him for a meal ticket.

Do you understand the beating I put on this guy to win $70 at a dollar and a dollar? He is such a bonehead, he thought he just didn't get the rolls!

Of course, once I quit, the meal ticket guy talks him into playing races to 3 for $20 to get deeper in his pocket. He lost two sets before I left.

The point is, I really hope this guy wakes up and realizes what's happening. He's a good guy and I don't want to see him get hurt because of his stupidity.

Problem is my old road warrior thinking comes into play > He's going donate to somebody, why not to me?

It's cheap and hopefully, somewhere, sometime, he'll learn something.....

But I seriously doubt it!


Stones

 

[4onthebreak]

Are you his mentor?

Does he look to you for advice?

It sounds like he believes he's past your help. He sounds like the kind of guy who only takes help from someone whom he believes is a better player. If that's the case there isn't anything you can do.

More to the point:

Why do you have to?

Maybe he'll come around in time but then again maybe he won't. I play on 2 teams and while I'm not the best shooter on the team I'm a good pool player. I've helped some people on my teams to become better players and others simply aren't interested. It took me some time to really realize:

It isn't my job to perfect every pool player's game that I come across (even if I can't help but want to help)
and more importantly
Not everyone wants help (all the time or some of the time from me or from anyone)

Try to focus on your game and let him figure his way through it. You don't want to become a nag who looks to argue if someone isn't playing "your way". Worse then that: Someone who just looks like it.

(Please ignore if I posted this already...having comp issues)

Hey all,

I have a friend that started playing pool just over a year ago. He quickly became a Tap4 handicap, but has stayed there for a full year. He has two major flaws in his game: 1) His Stroke 2) His Thinking

We are working on his stroke and it is definitely getting better. More fluid and less jerky. BUT I need some advice on how to convince him that he needs to play SAFE when it is completely obvious that he should.
He will try and bank his way out of everything, he will sink balls that were potentially keeping the other player from running out even though his balls are tied up, etc. He still insists today that "Pros don't play safes, I want to get to the point in my game that I don't need to go safe"

When we practice I consistantly tell him when to go safe, and we argue for a bit and then he does the wrong thing about 60% of the time. If he does go safe and I get out of it, he reinforces to himself that safeties are a waste...

1) Any advice you can offer? other then kick him, or forget him (because that is where my head is at right now)
2) Any good videos either youtube or purchaseable that would help reinforce the value of safety play
3) Any good articles on the web that address this style of thinking

Thanks for your help!